was tyrions childhood that sad?

[Maia]

Tyrion's childhood was one that contained several tragedies, certain great obstacles/ difficulties, along with an undeniable amount of enormous privileges. On the downside, he was a dwarf in Westeros (a land hostile to those with physical or mental differences), he had a cold indifferent father, and a sister who ignored him.

IMHO, it is fairly clear that they weren't just indifferent/ignored him, but were actively hateful on occasion. Cersei more or less all the time, Tywin probably less frequently, but with more weight to make it really bad.

With the exception of Tywin and Cersei and other enormously powerful nobles, few other people are going to have the guts to risk their lives mocking Tyrion to his face.

Not true at all - the Hound insulted Tyrion in his very first chapter and as things progress it is made abundantly clear that despite his usual attitude re: House Lannister being laughed at, Tywin not only allowed, but encouraged mocking of Tyrion by his bannermen. Cersei and anybody wanting to curry favor with her did it all the time too.

Furthermore, Tyrion had his brother Jaime, and several uncles who clearly loved and expressed clear affection for him.

Here, I have to agree. In fact, it always seemed rather problematic and even shocking to me how cold Tyrion was to his extended family and to what degree he was fixated on his immediate family.

I mean, even in AGOT we saw Kevan being genuinely warm to Tyrion, yet all we got from Tyrion in return was (completely unjustified, as it turned out) disdain. Later, not only didn't Tyrion have any empathy for Lancel's probable demise, but he just felt put upon when Kevan broke down because of the murder of one of his younger sons, while Lancel's life still hung by a thread too. It is a bit of an interesting contrast to Tyrion's own actions re: Joff back when Bran fell. Anyway, OK, I can sorta understand that Tyrion would be perpetually subconsciously angry at Kevan, because Kevan was Tywin's right-hand man and while being personally decent to Tyrion apparently never tried to protect him from Tywin.

But we saw the same with Tyrek, whose father, according to Tyrion himself, was kind to him. IIRC, Tyrion never wasted a thought on the poor kid (who was a half-orphan dropped into the whole disaster of Robert's and Cersei's court at Sansa's age or younger, let's not forget), except for once when he vanished in the riot and a few desulatory orders to find him.

Ditto Genna and her sons. And we later found out that Genna had actually quarreled with Tywin over Tyrion and noticed that they had similar personalities, so I can't imagine her treating Tyrion badly either.

Ditto Gerion's bastard daughter - and we learned later that Gerion was Tyrion's favorite uncle.

Yet, Tyrion was fond of Cersei's younger children and they of him - it seems that he was fully capable of winning affections of his younger relatives, he just didn't bother with his cousins. And of course, Tyrion wasn't so fond even of them that he wasn't ready to harm them, once he became sufficiently angry at their parents.

Now, I am a fan of Tyrion, but I really find all this hugely problematic - more than his treatment of women, to be honest.

Before the Maggy the Frog ridiculousness, it was noted that Cersei was afraid of Tyrion, and did not trust him. Considering that Tyrion's self stated desire is to overthrow Cersei from power and claim it for himself, this is not surprising.

Because Tyrion knew that Cersei couldn't be trusted as a sensibly cooperative ally. His mere appearance should have set off warning bells to Cersei and convinced her to try work with him, but she showed herself immediately antagonistic instead. I have some sympathy for Cersei (more in AGOT than later), but really that was all on her.

What we need to consider is Tyrion growing up without a loving parent. With no loving parent you can have one loving brother or one million, one kind uncle or one million, one explanation or one million. That's where it all stems from. That's what turns it into an incredibly sad childhood.

I completely disagree with this. In the Westerosi society ( like iRL until the 20-ieth century, actually) many people don't grow up with their parents, either because their parents are dead or because they are fostered/apprenticed away from home. It is common and expected to have other parental figures than one's biological parents. So, yes, uncles and aunts should have been able to fill that void. And we know that they were decent to affectionate to Tyrion.

For that matter, Jaime couldn't have been around much during Tyrion's childhood - what with 8-9 years difference, being squired at 11, becoming KG at 15, so it is unclear why Tyrion felt so close to him, IMHO.

[Faceless Cat]

Given that Tyrion's childhood left him emotionally damaged I find it rather strange that anybody would argue that it wasn't an unhappy childhood. To him, it was. Should we quantify suffering, and decide on unhappiness levels that determine just how much you need to be subjected to before you're allowed to feel sad about it? How many harsh words shall we agree are required before a person is allowed to resent them despite having food on the table every day?

I couldn't properly answer those questions, and I frankly doubt anybody else could either.

[Masamune]

It's all relative, in't it?

Compared to the various street-rats living from hand to mouth, Tyrion's life looks a pretty sweet deal. Then factor in the fact he took his mother's life and was shunned by his father & his sister, all while growing up with a serious deformity. Not even the prestige of House Lannister could protect him from the prejudice he's suffered over the years. So yeah, it's actually a testament to Tyrion that he turned out to be an honest and urbane human being instead of the vile imp that many have him down for.

[Maia]

I am not saying that Tyrion's childhood wasn't sad - clearly, his disability resulted in a lot of mockery and rejection and likely prevented him from having friends his own age.

The 2 years after Tywin's resignation as Hand must have been particularly hellish, since both Tywin and Cersei returned to the Rock and both were very angry and frustrated, while Jaime was away in KL and unable even to visit.

No, what I don't quite understand and what I find worrying is Tyrion's lack of stronger bonds with his extended family and younger relatives (yes, including a sad little bastard, for whom Tyrion should have had a particular tender spot), which, according to himself and other evidence was quite warm and supportive towards him.

For that matter, why does nobody, not even the newly embittered Tyrion, blame Jaime for joining KG, when this action clearly made Tyrion's situation much worse and generally had a very negative effect on House Lannister? And Jaime's consent was required, we know that now.

[Rheagar Prime]

in noble terms one can say so but in general hell no. Just was neglected and hated by his sister and dad but still loved and appreciated by many family members others have had worse in the series. Sam being a great example

[Gannicus]

I'd say that Tyrion's childhood was not tragic so much as difficult. In fact, I'd wager that it was perhaps not so very different from that of many of us-- with its share of difficulties and joys. Tyrion's childhood was one that contained several tragedies, certain great obstacles/ difficulties, along with an undeniable amount of enormous privileges. On the downside, he was a dwarf in Westeros (a land hostile to those with physical or mental differences), he had a cold indifferent father, and a sister who ignored him. (IMO, the latter is exactly what many of us had growing up, but that's another issue for another day.)

Actually it seems just the opposite. Not so much difficult as tragic. He is privlaged but unloved through no fault of his own. He has a physical deformity, no friends, no mother, a father who wishes he didn't exist, and a sister who despises him. Do you really think many of us share his difficulties?

However, Tyrion also had a great deal of privilege. He was the son of one of the richest and most powerful families in the land. Whereas many dismiss those who note this as an issue in Tyrion's favor as "shallow" or "insensitive" (claiming that Tyrion's emotional isolation made all other factors null and void), that fact is that Tyrion is far more privileged that 99.9999 percent of his land's population.

For instance, growing up, he never once had to worry about the issue that plagues the vast majority of Westeros children-- am I going to starve to death within the next several weeks. In a brutal land, Tyrion always had all of his immediate needs and wants taken care of. His has wonderful clothes, lavish living quarters, rich food to eat at all times.

I know you said you're not doing this, but it sure sounds like you're implying Tyrion shouldn't be unhappy with his childhood because he's rich. Sure he could have had more struggles to deal with. But to a young boy how he's perceived and loved by people around him is a hell of a lot more important than wonderful clothes.

RE: Cersei and Tyrion: I can't really see much evidence of supposed "abuse." However, in AGOT, it is noted by Tyrion that Cersei looks upon him "with the distaste she had looked upon him for most of their lives." So maybe that's why Tyrion wants to "murder and rape my sister"?

You can't find evidence of Cersei's "abuse"? Come on now, we were given multiple examples of her cruelty towards Tyrion.

I can't remember did Tyrion say he wanted to rape and murder Cersei before she tried to have him killed?

Certainly, he's always had a sexual fixation upon her that some would define as... well, strange. In ACOK, after he's been ordered to make nice with Cersei by Tywin, and things may depend upon how well he approaches her, he starts their interaction (without a single insult by Cersei) by saying, "knew that you were fucking our dear Jaime?" Then he says (for some reason), "I don't see why you'd give such a privilege to one brother but not the other." This really comes out of no where, and is gross and creepy. It may also clarify some of Cersei's distaste for Tyrion, though why he has the desire to murder and rape her in retalliation still remains mysterious.

This is nothing more than a classic Tyrion jape. He knows she finds him disgusting and isn't expecting or wanting any such thing from her. So you think Tyrion is the one being gross and creepy, not the one who is getting plowed by multiple members of her family? :rolleyes:

Clearly, GRRM intends for Tyrion to come across as the victim in the relationship, Cersei as the victimizer. Still, whatever went on between them, Tyrion's weirdly sexualized antagonism towards his sister makes no bloody sense.

Before the Maggy the Frog ridiculousness, it was noted that Cersei was afraid of Tyrion, and did not trust him. Considering that Tyrion's self stated desire is to overthrow Cersei from power and claim it for himself, this is not surprising.

Yeah it's GRRMs story, ya think just maybe Cersei is more of the victimizer.

Tyrion antagonizes just about everyone, he uses sexual japes directed at Cercei because it gets under her skin.

Cersei was affraid and mistrusting of a 10 year old boy? Can you say damaged goods. If Cersei wasn't such a horrible person and in particularly a horrible person to Tyrion it's doubtful he would be trying to overthrow her.

People also said that, though Tyrion had a cold distant father, he also had a loving brother who showed him affection and kindness, several loving uncles who clearly showed him affection, visited him, brought him gifts, and attempted to explain his father's behavior to him, etc.

I think you overstate the affection Tyrion's uncles and even Jamie showed him. He has developed an armor of japes and cynicism largely as a result of being lonely and unloved. You speak of the advantages that House Lannister has given Tyrion, but I hold that it might be particularly difficult to be viewed as a mascot in that family.

[Anwar]

As another poster pointed out, it is strange he never tried developing any closer ties to the rest of his extended family. You'd think he'd have been closer to Joy Hill, seeing how not only was she the daughter of his favorite Uncle (Gerion) but also a bastard. But he shows no signs of being close to any of them or remotely caring about them either although they DID give him the kindness he wanted from Tywin.

[Pod The Impaler]

Tyrion Lannister:

- Was born a dwarf. In this environment that means "stunted, funny-looking" and society will always reckon him as only half a man because of it. In other words, he's considered physically defective.

- Indeed, Tyrion himself knows had be other than highborn, he would have been smothered in the cradle, left in the woods, etc.

- Had no mother to love him because his being born killed her.

- Speaking of which, he's basically blamed by his father and his sister for his mother's death, as if it was something he's morally culpable for. The message is always loud and clear "you shouldn't exist". In other words, he's also considered morally defective / naturally evil.

- Tywin may have been influenced by people saying Tyrion's coming was the judgement of the gods upon him - not for it being real, just for the fact that they said this at all

- His sister even harms him as an infant, trying to maim him as an infant.

- His father makes sure to stamp out most any exuberant activities in him, on the grounds it might make him appear clown-ish. Yet, at the same time he ever fails to remind Tyrion it's all he'll ever be good for. And he refuses to send him to somewhere where his mind might make a career for him (the Citadel or the Faith), despite the fact this would remove Tyrion from the household and spare him any embarassment without him having to get his hands dirty.

- At 13, Tyrion gets the one and only chance he'll ever have at love, with a girl who seems to like him for who he is. Naturally, his family makes sure to totally utterly destroy that. And not only destroy it, but destroy the girl along with it, using maximum sadism. If that's not good enough, dear old dad makes Tyrion deliver the coup de grace himself.

- But of course they make sure Tyrion's deceived all these years, thinking she's a whore. We all know this is connected to his constant whoring later, and contributes to his idea that no girl or woman could ever actually love him for who he is, just for his wealth and power. (Confirming in his mind what his father feared.)

- Oh, except it wasn't true ! So not only was an innocent girl destroyed, so was his only chance of actual love. And the worst thing is, Tyrion himself delivered the coup de grace, so he has now committed an atrocity so bad he can never be forgiven by himself - something that makes kinslaying or kingslaying a minor thing.

- And that's not the punchline - this is: Jaime, the only immediate family member who ever protected him or showed him the least bit of warmth was actually in on it. So now there is literally no one Tyrion can trust, anywhere, ever.

- Even trying to go travelling to escape his wonderful family life was denied to him. But hey, fix the cisterns of Casterly Rock so you can scuttle around the sewers like the rat you are, son.

Highborn or no, Tyrion's childhood is 100% tragedy, and most of it the result of capricious cruelty.

[LordBloodraven]

As another poster pointed out, it is strange he never tried developing any closer ties to the rest of his extended family. You'd think he'd have been closer to Joy Hill, seeing how not only was she the daughter of his favorite Uncle (Gerion) but also a bastard. But he shows no signs of being close to any of them or remotely caring about them either although they DID give him the kindness he wanted from Tywin.

Joy Hill is 8, I think. So Tyrion is way too old to have more than close fraternal ties with her. He gets on well to his uncles Gerion, Tygett and to a lesser extent, Kevan.

[The Mother of The Others]

Tyrion's experiences pretty much parallel mine.

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

Tyrion's experiences pretty much parallel mine.

Have you found out where whores go?

[The Mother of The Others]

You know, it wasn't as much of a destination as Tyrion makes it sound like.

You go there, and then you leave.

He's probably setting himself up for disappointment by focussing on where they go as if it's some sort of vacation resort you can retire to. In reality, were you to find where they go, it probably looks a lot more like a ditch by the side of the road.