Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ragnorak

Foreshadowing and Symbolism in Sansa's Snow Castle

Recommended Posts

@Lyanna Stark

Totally forgot the statue was Alyssa Arryn-- was too focused on the description.

I focused a lot on Alyssa Arryn to start with, and what happened to her, with how she didn't cry initially and then was doomed to cry, but really I think her position is more important.

The crying woman is half buried in the snow, and Sansa starts out very close to her, almost as a supplicant, but then grows stronger and gets up. It's like Alyssa Arryn and her tears symbolise what Sansa was before (now buried, or at least in the process of becoming buried), but then Sansa creates Winterfell and transcends, in a way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of this is really good, some of it might be a bit of a stretch. But Sansa, the one who most wanted to go south to King's Landing, as the Stark in the winterfell at the end? Sansa swinging the sword that kills Petyr Baelish? excellent

I love this idea as well. In fact, there could be something to it. Im really starting to think its Sansa that brings down Littlefinger. Littlefinger is also trying to get her to forget about being a Stark in a way. It parallels with Arya's struggle to lose her identity. Arya has a link to Westeros and to her heritage through Nymeria. Sansa doesnt forget about Winterfell because she dreams of it. Shes also very connected with the weirwoods and godswoods of the places she ends up at. Since Sansa isnt showing warging signs, perhaps shes connecting somehow with the weirwoods?

It seems obvious to me that Jon is going to warg into Ghost: might be that the reconnection between Jon and Sansa will be between Sansa and Ghost?

Sansa might change to a point where Ghost as Sansa's direwolf may not seem too impossible :)

That is possible. Ghost running south with Jon in there somewhere may happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@brashcandy

I completely forgot about "ghost wolf, as big as the mountains." Jon Snow being LC comes up on the way down too. They were even on their way to Snow when she hears it. I'm convinced there's a better Sansa/Jon interpretation, I just don't know her arc well enough to put it together.

Well, despite the initial impression one would have gotten about the nature of their relationship, Sansa and Jon seemed to have liked each other fairly well even though they didn't enjoy a close relationship like the one he had with Arya. When Yoren comes to KL to ask for men for the NW, Sansa thinks of how awful he looks and sympathises with Jon having to be in such an organization. There are also parallels in their development throughout the novels, with both of them displaying kingly/queenly qualities at different times. In becoming a bastard herself, the circle is complete, and Sansa no longer simply pities Jon, but can actually identify with him; a stone to snow. This identification marks an important part of her growth into a stronger individual, without the reliance on birthright or beauty. Perhaps it symbolizes that what makes the Starks strong is not "Starkness" but rather the Snow - winter is coming - and the need to be prepared to meet these challenges, bringing their individual skills to strengthen the pack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, despite the initial impression one would have gotten about the nature of their relationship, Sansa and Jon seemed to have liked each other fairly well even though they didn't enjoy a close relationship like the one he had with Arya. When Yoren comes to KL to ask for men for the NW, Sansa thinks of how awful he looks and sympathises with Jon having to be in such an organization. There are also parallels in their development throughout the novels, with both of them displaying kingly/queenly qualities at different times. In becoming a bastard herself, the circle is complete, and Sansa no longer simply pities Jon, but can actually identify with him; a stone to snow. This identification marks an important part of her growth into a stronger individual, without the reliance on birthright or beauty. Perhaps it symbolizes that what makes the Starks strong is not "Starkness" but rather the Snow - winter is coming - and the need to be prepared to meet these challenges, bringing their individual skills to strengthen the pack.

I was really surprised at how much Jon is evoked in this chapter even though he's never named. The descriptions and imagery as you read make it easy to miss something as obvious as a silent ghost. Never even saw it my first reread of the chapter looking for themes. All his siblings play prominently in Jon's thoughts as he prepares to head toward Winterfell to confront Ramsay-- here's Sansa.

Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

There's the singing again too. There's definitely something there, but if you want Jon free to marry Dany you have to come up with a better explanation than I did. :idea:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's the singing again too. There's definitely something there, but if you want Jon free to marry Dany you have to come up with a better explanation than I did. :idea:

She can still be of assistance, even if they don't marry. Sansa as an ally and perhaps a Guardian for Rickon would surely be useful for Jon.

Jon thinking of all his siblings could also point back to Eddard's words in AGOT: The pack survives but the lone wolf dies, i.e. the Stark children all need to come together somehow to succeed.

It IS interesting however that she takes up Ygritte's role here. Kissed by fire/Auburn, perhaps? Sansa acts as the carrier of Jon's internalised message, but she does so via a song, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How old is Mance? I am gonna have to start shipping Sansa + Mance :eek: ?

Anyway, could there be a situation where Sansa brings Riverrun and possibly the Vale (through either SR or HtH), Rickon in Winterfell, Jon as King of the Wildlings, Bran as Tree HQ, and I don't know about Arya (Stormlands through Edric Storm/Gendry?) to bring about Robert's Rebellion Part II. I'm not sure, too many marriages there in actuality but you never know I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She can still be of assistance, even if they don't marry. Sansa as an ally and perhaps a Guardian for Rickon would surely be useful for Jon.

Jon thinking of all his siblings could also point back to Eddard's words in AGOT: The pack survives but the lone wolf dies, i.e. the Stark children all need to come together somehow to succeed.

It IS interesting however that she takes up Ygritte's role here. Kissed by fire/Auburn, perhaps? Sansa acts as the carrier of Jon's internalised message, but she does so via a song, too.

There seems to be a big Jon factor in the Great Northern Conspiracy. That Alys Karstark would run to him is telling of what the North thinks of him. Manderly's other songs are all Nights Watch centric. They know he turned down Winterfell in favor of the Old Gods. The Mountain Clans went with Stannis and sent two leaders to the Wall which hints at more Jon involvement than we see. Seeing such strong Jon/Sansa symbolism really makes me wonder.

@Tagganaro

Last time Jon and Mance fought you know who won. If he wants Sansa... well he's Mance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There seems to be a big Jon factor in the Great Northern Conspiracy. That Alys Karstark would run to him is telling of what the North thinks of him. Manderly's other songs are all Nights Watch centric. They know he turned down Winterfell in favor of the Old Gods. The Mountain Clans went with Stannis and sent two leaders to the Wall which hints at more Jon involvement than we see. Seeing such strong Jon/Sansa symbolism really makes me wonder.

Indeed. Sansa could very well be helpful to Jon with her newfangled pragmatism, her pleasing personality and her Littlefinger trained understanding of people's motivations. I think it definitely points to Sansa and Jon joining forces somehow. There are also links to Arya and Bran (Rickon is most likely too young yet) so I think there are hints all four Stark children will be involved, but definitely Jon and Sansa on a leadership level.

@Tagganaro

Last time Jon and Mance fought you know who won. If he wants Sansa... well he's Mance.

I think there will be a problem for anyone who wants Sansa whom she does not want herself in the future. ;) Five arranged marriages later, Sansa Stark is fairly fed up with marriage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How old is Mance? I am gonna have to start shipping Sansa + Mance :eek: ?

Anyway, could there be a situation where Sansa brings Riverrun and possibly the Vale (through either SR or HtH), Rickon in Winterfell, Jon as King of the Wildlings, Bran as Tree HQ, and I don't know about Arya (Stormlands through Edric Storm/Gendry?) to bring about Robert's Rebellion Part II. I'm not sure, too many marriages there in actuality but you never know I guess.

I'm going to write a real post on topic shortly, but to answer your question, I believe the Mance is about 40 or slightly past. Brown hair, mostly grey now, and shaggy-long, brown eyes, slender build.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was really surprised at how much Jon is evoked in this chapter even though he's never named. The descriptions and imagery as you read make it easy to miss something as obvious as a silent ghost. Never even saw it my first reread of the chapter looking for themes. All his siblings play prominently in Jon's thoughts as he prepares to head toward Winterfell to confront Ramsay-- here's Sansa.

There's the singing again too. There's definitely something there, but if you want Jon free to marry Dany you have to come up with a better explanation than I did. :idea:

Heh :) I guess I don't see a possibility of Jon developing those kinds of feelings for any of his siblings, (plus Sansan is as set in stone as any theory in ASOIAF), but I do agree that they may come to work together and help restore peace and order in the realm. There's something about the singing for sure, and how Sansa will utilise this power given her disillusionment with "life is not a song" remains to be seen. Remember as well that Sansa is the one who told Jon that he should always compliment a girl on her name, so maybe she acts as a kind of facilitator, assisting in Jon's achievements? When Jon is tempted with the offer of Lord of Winterfell, he tells Stannis that it belongs to Sansa, ultimately giving up on that prize, but perhaps to claim something greater?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heh :) I guess I don't see a possibility of Jon developing those kinds of feelings for any of his siblings, (plus Sansan is as set in stone as any theory in ASOIAF), but I do agree that they may come to work together and help restore peace and order in the realm. There's something about the singing for sure, and how Sansa will utilise this power given her disillusionment with "life is not a song" remains to be seen. Remember as well that Sansa is the one who told Jon that he should always compliment a girl on her name, so maybe she acts as a kind of facilitator, assisting in Jon's achievements? When Jon is tempted with the offer of Lord of Winterfell, he tells Stannis that it belongs to Sansa, ultimately giving up on that prize, but perhaps to claim something greater?

ahem.

From the mouth of Martin: "There's something there....I played with it a little".

carry on...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There seems to be a big Jon factor in the Great Northern Conspiracy. That Alys Karstark would run to him is telling of what the North thinks of him. Manderly's other songs are all Nights Watch centric. They know he turned down Winterfell in favor of the Old Gods. The Mountain Clans went with Stannis and sent two leaders to the Wall which hints at more Jon involvement than we see. Seeing such strong Jon/Sansa symbolism really makes me wonder.

@Tagganaro

Last time Jon and Mance fought you know who won. If he wants Sansa... well he's Mance.

Agreed on everything.

Also love how "Well, he's Mance" pretty much covers it all. It's Mance's world and we're all living in it.

Indeed. Sansa could very well be helpful to Jon with her newfangled pragmatism, her pleasing personality and her Littlefinger trained understanding of people's motivations. I think it definitely points to Sansa and Jon joining forces somehow. There are also links to Arya and Bran (Rickon is most likely too young yet) so I think there are hints all four Stark children will be involved, but definitely Jon and Sansa on a leadership level.

Agreed. I think Jon and Sansa by far have had the most extensive "training" in leadership and seem to be the only Starks in prominent positions to "rebuild" Winterfell. Jon could definitely use what Sansa has learned in diplomacy/playing the game and Sansa can definitely use/needs Jon's military skill and possible swords he'd be bringing to the picture.

My problem with Arya and Bran is they are too far out of the way at the moment and are not exactly on paths that involve them embracing Winterfell. I could definitely see Bran being some kind of HQ through the Weirwood network, but it seems unlikely he'll ever be in position to actually walk again or even leave that Cave until after Winter considering wights seem to be camped out in front. Arya will return eventually (Needle + Nightwolf will overcome FM training), but she hasn't exactly learned skills that will allow her to flourish in the political game (at least as a public figure).

And I still question what kind of role Rickon will play- Clearly he's in the book for a reason and the only thing I can come up with is eventually being Lord of WF at the moment.

I think there will be a problem for anyone who wants Sansa whom she does not want herself in the future. ;) Five arranged marriages later, Sansa Stark is fairly fed up with marriage.

Agreed. It's more of a joke, but seriously it's Mance :dunno: . Anything can happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heh :) I guess I don't see a possibility of Jon developing those kinds of feelings for any of his siblings, (plus Sansan is as set in stone as any theory in ASOIAF), but I do agree that they may come to work together and help restore peace and order in the realm. There's something about the singing for sure, and how Sansa will utilise this power given her disillusionment with "life is not a song" remains to be seen. Remember as well that Sansa is the one who told Jon that he should always compliment a girl on her name, so maybe she acts as a kind of facilitator, assisting in Jon's achievements? When Jon is tempted with the offer of Lord of Winterfell, he tells Stannis that it belongs to Sansa, ultimately giving up on that prize, but perhaps to claim something greater?

That was just my feeble attempt at taunting you into give more nuggets like:

There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa.A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

Still not sure what to make of that. There's the mention of Jon by Myranda but also Mya's speech about the mountain being her father.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, wonderful analysis Ragnorak! As I mentioned in the PtP threads, your take on this scene made me take on a new view of what Sansa building the snow castle would mean for not only her but for Bran, Arya and Jon.

I’m starting to re-read Feasts, and in Arya’s first chapter as she is talking about the Titan of Braavos she thinks that the statue it’s so tall that

...He could step right over the walls of Winterfell...”

This could possibly be another hint at LF being the giant Sansa will slay one way or another since Petyr does just this with Sansa's castle with his whole horrible "May i come into your castle" reference?

Oh and I also just wanted to say that i agree with Lyanna’s words in an earlier post where she says this:

The crying woman is half buried in the snow, and Sansa starts out very close to her, almost as a supplicant, but then grows stronger and gets up. It's like Alyssa Arryn and her tears symbolize what Sansa was before (now buried, or at least in the process of becoming buried), but then Sansa creates Winterfell and transcends, in a way.

I find the building of the snow castle beautiful and poetic as others have said and I’d always seen it as Sansa’s last childhood moments. In the PtP threads there wasrecently talks of how in this scene winter is finally catching up with Sansa, and what Lyanna said about how Sansa manage to grow strong again after winter filled her and compelled her to do the snow castle show that she could very well survive the long winter that awaits Westeros and that she’ll probably be one of those characters who survive the books.

Anyways, looking forward to reading more of what others think of this chapter! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was just my feeble attempt at taunting you into give more nuggets like:

Still not sure what to make of that. There's the mention of Jon by Myranda but also Mya's speech about the mountain being her father.

Sneaky ;) My personal take is that it's a reference to Lady, who is afterall a ghost wolf, and that Sansa is still connected to that source of Stark power, and it's still influencing her behaviour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if it's been said:

that snow castle was when Petyr first lost control and kissed her, right?

and then somebody saw and as a result Lysa went more nuts than usual with jealousy and Petyr "had" to kill her.

Is that right?

If so, then the snow castle moment Petyr shared with Sansa is the moment that sealed his doom, because eventually she'll be backed into a corner and just cry out in public "This guy killed Lysa Arryn!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's reasonable to assume that some of what is happening here is foreshadowing. Many fans have long believed that the "snow castle" scene is not the true fulfillment of the Ghost of High Heart's vision. However, I don't think that each detail in this sequence needs to be imbued with such symbolic meaning. There are probably a few choice comparisons and descriptions that you can pick out and use to try to make predictions, but most of this just goes way too far. You can invent symbolism for just about anything when you get down to this level.

I would tend to agree.

Some phrases might be symbolic, or foreshadowing.

Most are likely not.

Winterfell was Sansa's home, and all it took was the onset of winter coming to remind her of it, and of who she really is.

Sansa's small spat with Sweetrobin (despite the supposed dangers of upsetting him) was instinctual. Maybe it's not just her chastising him for being naughty (something his mother never did), but her trying to preserve her memories of home as her current life in the Vale so rudely and destructively intruded on it. Sansa tore the doll's head off because she was being Sansa at that moment, not Alayne. ("Alayne" had no reason to build a little Winterfell. "Alayne" has never been there.)

But look what also came of her small attempt to be Sansa for a little while again - Littlefinger kissing Sansa, not Alayne. Lysa's jealous rage at Sansa (and Catelyn), not "Alayne". Lysa's death. Her inadvertently making herself Sweetrobin's new mommy.

So yeah, I see symbolism there, just not in every phrase and every word. Most of it is quite straightforward.

I do think it's curious that with all this discussion of giant symbolism, nobody has mentioned the name of the mountain where the Eyre is perched, the Giant's Lance, and perhaps the possibility that we're looking at the physical destruction of this "impregnable" castle.

So the Eyrie is the Savage Giant in the snow castle ? Interesting idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×