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Ragnorak

Foreshadowing and Symbolism in Sansa's Snow Castle

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Sorry if it's been said:

that snow castle was when Petyr first lost control and kissed her, right?

and then somebody saw and as a result Lysa went more nuts than usual with jealousy and Petyr "had" to kill her.

Is that right?

If so, then the snow castle moment Petyr shared with Sansa is the moment that sealed his doom, because eventually she'll be backed into a corner and just cry out in public "This guy killed Lysa Arryn!"

And she can say "This guy told Lysa Arryn to poison her husband and frame the Lannisters! He kickstarted the whole civil war!" Quite a bit was said and witnessed after Petyr's first loss of control. It's been pointed out that Sansa (because of her beauty and resemblance to her mother) is Petyr's one weakness.

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How old is Mance? I am gonna have to start shipping Sansa + Mance :eek: ?

Tagg, I think I'm both highly intrigued and somewhat horrified!

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Well I have another idea about the winterfells destruction by SR.SR first breaks 2 towers then he tries to go beyond the walls and enter by the gate.Now I don't wanna sound like a perv but this feels like a foreshadowing of LF trying to rape Sansa.First he reaches two towers (her breasts) then he tries to rape her but I don't know how he will get caught and this rape scene will cost him his head.If you remember in the end Sansa rips Giants head off.And LF is a Giant in her life.LF has all the money, political power and he most importantly knows her secret which makes him a very powerfull person over Sansas life like a giant.Now maybe this rape scene is very disgusting but if this happens it will help Sansa a lot.LF will tell everbody who she is and we know Vale wants to protect the Starks.Why LF will tell is very simple he will try to dodge incest because that is something he can't afford but if he tells who Sansa is he might make it.He will think that by giving people money and land he made them his own men but when he reveals who Sansa is Vale will totally leave LFs side to help Sansa.Then Sansa will tell everybody what she heard and learnd over the time she spent with LF.This will end with LFs head on a spike.

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Much of this agrees with what I've been thinking.. I don't know if we need to pick it apart as minutely as how many snowballs Sansa started with .. but all the same , the more you look , the more you can find... I guess I'm just not sure that everything that can be found means much.

I guess I'd include the lambswool stockings in that category, because I'm pretty sure that's not the only time she wears wool , and it's what people did wear to keep warm. ( Roose even offered to dress the freezing Theon in a lambswool tunic .) Anyone who could afford it would wear lambswool next to the skin because it's softer. So I don't see any particular significance there...

Also, what leaped out to me when LF offered Sansa the pomegranate , is that in our world , the pomegranate is supposed to have strong aphrodisiac properties...and therefore have a connection to Aphrodite . ( I don't think this connotation holds true for Bowen Marsh , though ;)...it might just refer to his complexion , but between him and Sansa, I'd equate him more strongly with death ).. And going back to Sansa ..didn't she choose a blood orange, instead ? ( She'll remain true to her blood ...or , his licentious intentions will be answered with blood , in the end ?) ..This is when I first began to believe that LF may have met his match.

I love all the references to Jon , but No,No,No to any thought of a romance between the two. They could complement each other well in guiding their younger siblings , their house and much of Westeros through the winter.( And notably , a certain wild child ) ..As others have pointed out ,Sansa is gaining great insight into Southern politics and plots, while Jon is gaining insight into the far North, the wildlings , and gaining military expertise.

Meanwhile ,back at the castle , I could be tempted to see Ned and Catelyn as the two bulwarks on either side of the gate. LF the giant ruined them , but Jon and Sansa could stand in for them.

I love that Sansa built the godswood first. It is WF's foundation and it's strength. If there's magic in WF , it's tied to the Godswood. ( And it could provide a seat for Bran that would reunite him with the pack.) ... I hadn't thought much about the bridges, but I could see the one between the keep and the armory perhaps representing that the Starks, residents of the keep , at need can be WF's most important weapons. The bridge between the library and the ravenry , that there is important knowledge/ wisdom in WF that needs to be/ will be sent out to the rest of the realm.

The "May I come into your castle" and "give me your hands" are pretty plain , and very creepy...

For me , perhaps the main thing is that Sansa consciously realizes , if only for a moment, her strength stems from Winterfell and all it represents. But I think that realization stays with her.. it's after this scenario that she begins to really realize that LF lies to her , too . Though she has to push that thought to the back of her mind for her own safety , it's there. She's touched her strength and hears her heritage calling to her . Her brain and empathetic abilities are working, and I think will only get stronger and more agile from here on out.

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Also, what leaped out to me when LF offered Sansa the pomegranate , is that in our world , the pomegranate is supposed to have strong aphrodisiac properties...and therefore have a connection to Aphrodite . ( I don't think this connotation holds true for Bowen Marsh , though ;)...it might just refer to his complexion , but between him and Sansa, I'd equate him more strongly with death ).. And going back to Sansa ..didn't she choose a blood orange, instead ? ( She'll remain true to her blood ...or , his licentious intentions will be answered with blood , in the end ?) ..This is when I first began to believe that LF may have met his match.

Sansa chooses a pear actually.

For me , perhaps the main thing is that Sansa consciously realizes , if only for a moment, her strength stems from Winterfell and all it represents. But I think that realization stays with her.. it's after this scenario that she begins to really realize that LF lies to her , too . Though she has to push that thought to the back of her mind for her own safety , it's there. She's touched her strength and hears her heritage calling to her . Her brain and empathetic abilities are working, and I think will only get stronger and more agile from here on out.

Quite so. :)

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Tagg, I think I'm both highly intrigued and somewhat horrified!

Admit it, shipping Mance with anyone can never be horrifying, and considering who else Sansa has the great "pleasure" of being shipped with on a daily basis, Mance is far superior :cool4: . haha, but seriously the age factor is a bit yucky obviously/totally inappropriate, but I think they'd be a fun pairing.

I love that Sansa built the godswood first. It is WF's foundation and it's strength. If there's magic in WF , it's tied to the Godswood. ( And it could provide a seat for Bran that would reunite him with the pack.) ... I hadn't thought much about the bridges, but I could see the one between the keep and the armory perhaps representing that the Starks, residents of the keep , at need can be WF's most important weapons. The bridge between the library and the ravenry , that there is important knowledge/ wisdom in WF that needs to be/ will be sent out to the rest of the realm.

The "May I come into your castle" and "give me your hands" are pretty plain , and very creepy...

For me , perhaps the main thing is that Sansa consciously realizes , if only for a moment, her strength stems from Winterfell and all it represents. But I think that realization stays with her.. it's after this scenario that she begins to really realize that LF lies to her , too . Though she has to push that thought to the back of her mind for her own safety , it's there. She's touched her strength and hears her heritage calling to her . Her brain and empathetic abilities are working, and I think will only get stronger and more agile from here on out.

This right here perfectly. I think the fact that Sansa chooses to build the Godswood first is highly relevant: It shows that she "gets it", and along with her connection to snow and therefore winter in this scene should put to rest any of the nonsensical speculation that she is less "Starkish" than other Stark siblings. LF might be in fact making the same mistake he made with Cat but even worse here- He sees Sansa as just like her mother, but forgets that she is also a Stark too in a way that Cat will never be (both literally (blood) and figuratively). And the Starks tend to do very well and be very dangerous in Winter from what we know of them.

Anyway, glad to see this wonderful thread getting bumped.

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Dang! I forgot the pear. :D

I can't check at the mo , but doesn't she find it pulpy and then choose a blood orange ?

I seem to remember she got a bit of the juice on her dress...

If my imagination is not running away with me ( as it could be) , this makes me think of Jaqen wiping blood on Arya's clothes . ( A girl should be bloody too. This is her work. )

Which leads me to think Sansa won't swing the sword herself , yet still be the cause of LF's end.

Now I'll have to check back to see if I'm imagining things.. dang and double dang ..

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Dang! I forgot the pear.

A ripe pear with the juice running down her chin. Signalling sexual development and maturity I'd argue, but importantly - given that this was her choice, and that she rejected the pomegranate - not aligned with Littlefinger.

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Admit it, shipping Mance with anyone can never be horrifying, and considering who else Sansa has the great "pleasure" of being shipped with on a daily basis, Mance is far superior :cool4: . haha, but seriously the age factor is a bit yucky obviously/totally inappropriate, but I think they'd be a fun pairing.

True that. The Mance is the Man! The age difference is way too wide, ESP is you also take the tv show into account, however I think they could have a really interesting relationship as long as Mance hasn't betrayed Jon, because that would put a wrench in things seeing as she's become so connected to Jon. I think the thing I find intriguing about the possibility of them meeting is Mance is a realist, not a cynic like Sandor. Mance loves music and loves songs, and yet is a complete realist about the heraldry and heroism within the songs. Sansa's come to view songs and chivalry in the cynical way Sandor expressed, and in many ways its ruined her love of the medium. Might meeting Mance give her a third way of looking at songs, a more realistic view, and with that might she be able to reconnect with this thing that has been so central to who she is?

The thing I truly love about this chapter is how much it's about Sansa's essential Starkness. This is unquestionably the most important chapter in Sansa's arc, thus far, and this girl that had longed for the south and warmth is now gaining strength from the cold, finds comfort and purpose in her siblings. One thing that is extremely curious is that her parents are never mentioned. Instead the focus is the pack, which her parents aren't actually part of. All of her full siblings are mentioned, save Rickon, and Jon isn't mentioned by name, I don't believe, but there's a lot of imagery involving him and he's been a central figure in her journey since she left Kings Landing. For all his pride in being able to see people's essential character Littlefinger doesn't see the essential Starkness in Sansa, he sees Tully, which is what she looks like on the surface. But it does show how for all his shrewdness he has bought the fools gold with Sansa, he even dressed her in Tully colors once, he doesn't see the inner Sansa, the one that is a Stark and a wolf.

I've been noodling on a thought for a bit that the central trio is Jon/Sansa/Arya, not Dany/Jon/Tyrion. Not that they're not all important, but that the Stark talents are meant to work in concert with one another, where others might be opposed. Chapters like this one, and the one that involves the trip down to the Gates of the Moon really reinforce that belief.

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I definitely agree with brashcandy's pear symbolism , and goodness knows , from this point on she needs to grow up in a hurry.

So I like this , too .She's taking in her own womanhood and sexuality , but not falling victim to his advances.

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The pomegranate is interesting. Persephone was tricked or tempted by Hades to eat pomegranate seeds which caused her to spend half her time in the underworld thereafter and be the queen of the underworld and wife if Hades. I'm glad Sansa chose the pear, it could mean that Littlefinger will try to trick her into accepting this offer/ scheme and she maybe be tempted but she will choose a different path.

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I've been noodling on a thought for a bit that the central trio is Jon/Sansa/Arya, not Dany/Jon/Tyrion. Not that they're not all important, but that the Stark talents are meant to work in concert with one another, where others might be opposed. Chapters like this one, and the one that involves the trip down to the Gates of the Moon really reinforce that belief.

I think by the end of winds early ADOS it will be jon/sansa/arya as one faction and dany/tyrion as another, but they will be neutral towards each other with arya and sansa eventually helping secure the throne for Jon/Dany after R + L reveal, but there might be a standoff in the Vale whether it's just Sansa and Arya v. Tyrion and Dany or Jon in the mix as well (i don't think he's going to be glued to the wall in winds)

Either way too much foreshadowing of Jon/Sansa/Arya being on the same "team" for them all not to be working together at some point

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...I've been noodling on a thought for a bit that the central trio is Jon/Sansa/Arya, not Dany/Jon/Tyrion. Not that they're not all important, but that the Stark talents are meant to work in concert with one another, where others might be opposed...

The Pack survives while the lone wolf dies? :)

I'm inclined to feel something similar...

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I definitely agree with brashcandy's pear symbolism , and goodness knows , from this point on she needs to grow up in a hurry.

So I like this , too .She's taking in her own womanhood and sexuality , but not falling victim to his advances.

Yes, I think Sansa is definitely taking in her own womanhood and sexuality in late ASOS early AFFC (well put btw :) ) but Littlefinger never figures in her thoughts when she does. Her attentions and kisses seem to make her shut down instead and her thoughts have completely different outlets, despite LF making efforts to "groom" her.

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Dang! I forgot the pear. :D

I can't check at the mo , but doesn't she find it pulpy and then choose a blood orange ?

I seem to remember she got a bit of the juice on her dress...

If my imagination is not running away with me ( as it could be) , this makes me think of Jaqen wiping blood on Arya's clothes . ( A girl should be bloody too. This is her work. )

Which leads me to think Sansa won't swing the sword herself , yet still be the cause of LF's end.

Now I'll have to check back to see if I'm imagining things.. dang and double dang ..

I think the blood orange is what Arya threw at Sansa and it stained Sansa's dress.

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A ripe pear with the juice running down her chin. Signalling sexual development and maturity I'd argue, but importantly - given that this was her choice, and that she rejected the pomegranate - not aligned with Littlefinger.

For me, it`s more about she rejecting the fruit LF offered than the fruit itself. This can be clear foreshadowing that Sansa will never be completly alligned with LF, that she won`t share his obsession for ruling and approach to Game. And wonderfully, by her choice, she distinguished her desires from the ones of LF`s. This pomegranate/pear can be also symbolizing her newly arranged marriage - Harry the Heir. He is offering that to her, but she refuses. Also, that leaves us hope she`ll one day choose a husband as she chose that pear.

And, Ragnorak, congrats on so many great theories in this thread. I was delighted to read it.

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:D :D :D....Ah, that's the damn blood orange ! D'oh! ..Never mind , the pear works . ( I can't stop giggling now..) I'm happy just as long as she doesn't give in to LF ..and I still think she'll be the death of him. ;)

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Another trip across the Covered Bridges...

In rereading Jon, I noticed we encounter the covered bridge between the armory and the keep twice. The first is when Jon and Arya are on the covered bridge watching Bran and Tommen fight (which may be meaningful in itself.) Jon and Arya discuss the unfairness of bastards being given the swords (a symbol of the armory) but not the coat of arms (a symbol of family embodied in the keep) and how that unfairness is reversed for girls who get the coats of arms but not the swords. They are both in the middle of the bridge between the two places. Later Jon picks up Needle from the armory and crosses this covered bridge to give it to Arya. Jon brings the armory to the keep and gives it to Arya starting her on her journey to have both the coat of arms and the sword.

While at the Nights Watch Jon puts aside family, the symbol of the keep, as he takes his vows and he endures his struggles to keep those vows in spite of the pull family still has for him. He stays true to his vows despite Ned being captured and then killed. He turns down Winterfell from Stannis for his vows, the Old Gods, and because it is Sansa's by right. He is tested again later by Melisandre regarding Arya. He still rejects the pull of family, "I have no sister, only brothers," but agrees to allow Mance to be sent after Arya-- she is his first crack. Finally after the Pink Letter it is Arya that is central to his choice to embrace family and go home to Winterfell. He even makes this decision in the Shield Hall, the place where the coat of arms are hung.

So the covered bridge connects Jon and Arya and it isn't that the armory represents Jon and the keep Arya so much as these are the two elements that they help bridge in each other. With that in mind the other bridge between the bell tower and the rookery would represent the connection between Bran and Sansa and what they need to share with each other. There has been a good deal of speculation that Sansa will warg birds and that seems a reasonable interpretation of a bridge from Bran to Sansa. The bell tower is for alarms or a call to arms. Sansa has learned that it was Lysa that poisoned Jon Arryn, will likely gain far more intel while in the Vale, and may be able to bring the Vale over to the Stark cause to engage threats Bran sees. The idea that Lady's death my have paid for Bran's life has possibilities too. Whatever is represented by the rookery and bell tower I think it is something that must be shared between Bran and Sansa before they are both ready to return home so the wolves may come again.

This all started when Bran fell from the First Keep while hearing secrets he wasn't ready for and the First Keep is the last part of Winterfell Sansa rebuilds before "attacking" Littlefinger. There is a great deal of focus in the books about remembering. Osha and others talk about how they remember things North of the Wall forgotten in Winterfell. Jojen talks of what they still remember in Greywater that is forgotten in Winterfell, Roose talks of the things they remember in Skagos. The First Keep is the oldest part of Winterfell and the original place of family for the Starks that has been abandoned or one might say forgotten. Especially given that this generation of Starks are all wargs, the First Keep may represent the real part of Winterfell that needs to be rebuilt or remembered.

Also in rereading Jon it occurred to me that the snow melting in Robb's hair might be symbolic of his short lived crown as King.

Her sister came back to see if she was hurt. When she said she wasn’t, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair

If snow in the hair represents a crown this might indicate that Sansa "crowns" Arya. With Sansa's current focus on escaping her claim this could be an eventual abdication to Arya, it could represent Sansa passing on a queenly marriage in favor of Arya, or it could be more symbolic. Arya coming back to make sure Sansa is not hurt could be Arya returning from Braavos because she hears word of Sansa. Given Arya's FM connection throwing snow in her face may represent Arya being the one to remove the Alaynne Stone identity. Rubbing snow in Arya's hair in response may represent Sansa convincing Arya to resume the crown-like responsibilities of a Stark and abandoning the FM rather than a literal crown.

Reading through this chapter I am again struck by the writing. Despite the competition I would have to say it is the most beautifully written scene in the series.

Outside the flakes drifted down as soft and silent as memory.

Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming. Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

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If snow in the hair represents a crown this might indicate that Sansa "crowns" Arya. With Sansa's current focus on escaping her claim this could be an eventual abdication to Arya, it could represent Sansa passing on a queenly marriage in favor of Arya, or it could be more symbolic. Arya coming back to make sure Sansa is not hurt could be Arya returning from Braavos because she hears word of Sansa. Given Arya's FM connection throwing snow in her face may represent Arya being the one to remove the Alaynne Stone identity. Rubbing snow in Arya's hair in response may represent Sansa convincing Arya to resume the crown-like responsibilities of a Stark and abandoning the FM rather than a literal crown.

To go back to the memory of the melting snowflakes in Robb's hair, she also remembers Arya unsuccessfully trying to make a snowball, and Sansa leaves Winterfell with the snow swirling all around her. I don't know if you were able to establish upthread what Arya's inability to shape the snowball could mean, but perhaps it signifies the eventual separation between the sisters or the tragedy in the family itself. So we have three images which seem to highlight coming problems for the Starks: the melting snowflakes in Robb's hair, Arya's snowball failure, and then swirling snow for Sansa, which is a little harder to interpret, but perhaps represents confusion, lack of clarity etc - states which define her early experience in KL.

Her lament that there's no one one to throw snowballs at, but then seeing how she could use them to begin building Winterfell might hint at the need for collective Stark power which is vested in their connection to home. It's interesting that Bran never leaves his perch during the snowball fight between Arya and Sansa, but he too is "armed" for the battle, which sees the two sisters hitting each other directly with the snow: Arya hits Sansa full in the face, and Sansa in turn rubs it in Arya's hair. I like your suggestions here concerning the crowning and/or the sisters helping to remind the other of their true identities/priorities.

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