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Ragnorak

Foreshadowing and Symbolism in Sansa's Snow Castle

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Thank you, Ragnorak.

Bells being rung after the ceremony, when the Bride and groom have left the Church are common and it would tie in with the wedding imagery of the scene. It provides a familiar connotation of the wedding ceremony to the reader.

Also as Mladen pointed out, bells have rung after almost every wedding in the book, even if not for the purpose of the wedding, the motif of a wedding being connected by bells runs throughout the story.

It's Sept bells (church bells if you want to draw a parallel to Christianity) that are associated with weddings, since it's a religious ceremony, not just all sorts of bells anywhere and anyplace. Dothraki bells are victory bells awarded for prowess in combat, the RW took place in a castle and the bells rung were tiny bells in Jinglebell's fool hat that rang during the massacre and announced a death, not a marriage, and there were no bells rung at Joffrey's wedding itself, but after his death at a banquet, to announce precisely that he had died as was the custom after someone important had passed away. In the description of marriage ceremonies in Westeros we have in the books, be it by the Seven or the Old Gods, Tyrion-Sansa, Alys-Sigorn, "Arya"-Ramsay, etc., including flashbacks, there's no mention of bells as part of the Westerosi marriage ceremony itself as in a real world church, so I wouldn't be so sure we can claim that they were rung after almost every wedding in the books.

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Daphne23 had a nice catch in the Pawn to Player thread regarding Ned::

He made plans to keep himself sane, built castles of hope in the dark

Not that it is directly related but Sansa's leaving the windows open while she dressed always makes me think of Ned doing the same back in Winterfell. In Ned's scene it is the moment Lysa's letter arrives and we see LF using "family" against the Starks not unlike he's claiming to be Daddy with Sansa here. It also is a scene that shows one of the differences between her Father and Mother that symbolizes the greater differences between North and South that we first saw through Cat's reflections in the godswood. It is the moment Ned chooses to leave Winterfell compared to arguably the moment Sansa decides to return to Winterfell (as opposed to waiting on someone to take her there.) There's also the implicit tension from our perspective of whether or not Sansa will become LF's daughter or remain Ned's as the drama in the Vale unfolds.

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Thank you, Ragnorak.

It's Sept bells (church bells if you want to draw a parallel to Christianity) that are associated with weddings, since it's a religious ceremony, not just all sorts of bells anywhere and anyplace. Dothraki bells are victory bells awarded for prowess in combat, the RW took place in a castle and the bells rung were tiny bells in Jinglebell's fool hat that rang during the massacre and announced a death, not a marriage, and there were no bells rung at Joffrey's wedding itself, but after his death at a banquet, to announce precisely that he had died as was the custom after someone important had passed away. In the description of marriage ceremonies in Westeros we have in the books, be it by the Seven or the Old Gods, Tyrion-Sansa, Alys-Sigorn, "Arya"-Ramsay, etc., including flashbacks, there's no mention of bells as part of the Westerosi marriage ceremony itself as in a real world church, so I wouldn't be so sure we can claim that they were rung after almost every wedding in the books.

Yes, and have you noticed the difference between three marriages I mentioned and three you did? I do understand that sept bells haven`t been rung during or after the wedding, but for as readers, bells are also symbol of the weddings, and bells are most commonly associated in modern world with relligious rituals, holidays, weddings and deaths. Also, if you like, in Orthodox world, bells have been also used as warning (Moscow`s bells in WWII, several Serbian cities` bells during bombing in 1999.), but in time of peace they ring only out of relligious neccessity. The bells are obvious pointers to the wedding. Now, as for three marriages you mentioned. Tyrion/Sansa marriage wouldn`t be legit due to, as I previously stated, this symbolic marriage to Sandor. Ramsay`s wedding isn`t preformed in sept, than in Godswood, and given the Arya that married was in fact someone else, that marriage is also invalid. The last one, between Alys and Sigorn was a wedding between wilding and Northerner done in front fires of Rhillor. As you can see, this marriage has fallacy in its ceremony, given the fact it mixes the ceremony of the weddings before the Old Gods and Rhillor. And although, RW and PW can be also seen as `not right`, Edmure and Roslin actually fell in love with each other, while Joffrey was prhaps very sincere in his intention that this marriage should last.

Also, the entire scene is filled with wedding symbols. You have Sansa singing the Mother`s hymn, symbol of motherhood, nurturing and therefore family. You have Sansa wrapped in Sandor`s cloak as symbol of his guidance and love. You have a night spent in the bed, as the last nail in the coffin. Although nothing happened sexually, we did draw several conclusion in regard Sansa`s sexual awakening. And perhaps, this marriage hasn`t been de facto consumated, in symbolic way it was, due to Sansa becoming woman and her acceptance of Sandor. So much unlike what she did when her marriage with Tyrion was in question. For me, this night was the night they became `one heart, one soul`, and united more than any other pair that wedded in ASOIAF.

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OK, as always, Sansa draws really nice group of great posters.

brashcandy, I adore that poem, It sounds different in Serbian, and due to translation, I didn`t know it`s that song. I also see wonderful connection there, and I am so glad someone actually used it as reference. I am really stunned by it

Elba, I believe that Sansa will combine 2 parts of the story. Now, that she is in the Vale, and Gates of the Moon has Godswood, I assume that Bran will take care of his sister somehow. I also think Nymeria will somehow be involved, and further more, I believe that Bran will help Sansa in making the first step towards warging. Therefore Sansa will be able to unite both mythological and political part of ASOIAF

Suzanna, you don`t have to thank me, thanks to Ragnorak and all others we have such amazing thread. I am just small piece in this great puzzle of amazing posts.

Now, since there`s snow in the Eyrie, Sansa would know there`s snow in Winterfell. After all, she was born somewhere in the winter, or at least spring. And even during Long summer, there were snows in Winterfell. As for giant, I see him as destructive force, not reclaiming one. Giant here wants to destroy the Winterfell and is led by Arryn hand, which for me represents LF with Arryn forces behind him. I find difficult to believe that Umbers, yet alone Wun Wun has anything to do with this scene.

I'm telling you it does. The Snow Castle scene is foreshadowing wrapped in foreshadowing. I agree with what other posters were saying about it represents events to come involving LF and SR. But it is also foreshadowing WF blanketed in snow and deserted by the Starks, which is how it has been ever since Bran and Rickon left. It is standing alone without any Starks, and as we know, 'there must always be a Stark in WF' And the reason I am sure of this is that; Sweet Robin could have just walked up to the entire snow castle and smashed it, stepped on it, knocked it all the way over with his hands or feet or a stick or anything. But instead he marches his 'giant' doll up to the front gate only and says 'Here comes a giant to smash your castle' or something similar, I can't remember the exact quote. Then he smashes, or knocks down the gate only. Which is obviously the entrance point to the castle, and is what Jon Snow will need to break to get in and kill Ramsay Snow. But of course he has no power to do this. With all the snow on the ground and the archers Ramsay is bound to have along the walls it would be very hard to build a trebuchet or anything else to break down the gate. So we have to think if there is anyone physically strong enough to get in. And Wun-Wun is the only one who displays that much power. And like I said there HAS to be some reason in the story that Jon is befriending this giant and basically just died for him. This is the only reason that would make everything Jon has done for this giant and the wildlings worth it; if they help him take back his father's castle and get revenge on the man who (as far as Jon knows) killed his little brothers and force married his little sister.

Wun-wun is the only giant in the books we have really come to know, and SR is referencing a giant specifically with his little doll. He could have said, 'here comes a monster' or 'here comes a dragon' or anything else, but he said 'giant'.

Then after he smashes the gate with the doll, Sansa gets mad and rips the dolls head off and puts it on a spike on the tallest tower. Which is clearly a symbol of claiming a castle. it is right where a banner would be flying, although concurrently it also is a clear sign that Wun-Wun will die in the attempt as well. But I think we can all live with that.

If you really think about the situation that WF is in with Ramsay Snow and the fact that no one else in the books has built a small model of a castle like this, especially one out of Snow. The snow alone symbolizes so many different things as well, namely Jon Snow and Ghost, for the purposes of this theory.

And besides all that, how else is Jon Snow going to reclaim Winterfell? I don't think Theons way in with the grappling hooks to breach the walls is going to work again for anyone, Ramsay will be ready for that, plus he has a lot more soldiers inside the walls then Bran and Maester Luwin did. The only way in is through the gates, and they are big and strong. As stupid of a character as Wun-Wun is, this is his purpose, this is how his friendship with Jon will pay off.

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I'm telling you it does. The Snow Castle scene is foreshadowing wrapped in foreshadowing. I agree with what other posters were saying about it represents events to come involving LF and SR. But it is also foreshadowing WF blanketed in snow and deserted by the Starks, which is how it has been ever since Bran and Rickon left. It is standing alone without any Starks, and as we know, 'there must always be a Stark in WF' And the reason I am sure of this is that; Sweet Robin could have just walked up to the entire snow castle and smashed it, stepped on it, knocked it all the way over with his hands or feet or a stick or anything. But instead he marches his 'giant' doll up to the front gate only and says 'Here comes a giant to smash your castle' or something similar, I can't remember the exact quote. Then he smashes, or knocks down the gate only. Which is obviously the entrance point to the castle, and is what Jon Snow will need to break to get in and kill Ramsay Snow. But of course he has no power to do this. With all the snow on the ground and the archers Ramsay is bound to have along the walls it would be very hard to build a trebuchet or anything else to break down the gate. So we have to think if there is anyone physically strong enough to get in. And Wun-Wun is the only one who displays that much power. And like I said there HAS to be some reason in the story that Jon is befriending this giant and basically just died for him. This is the only reason that would make everything Jon has done for this giant and the wildlings worth it; if they help him take back his father's castle and get revenge on the man who (as far as Jon knows) killed his little brothers and force married his little sister.

Wun-wun is the only giant in the books we have really come to know, and SR is referencing a giant specifically with his little doll. He could have said, 'here comes a monster' or 'here comes a dragon' or anything else, but he said 'giant'.

Then after he smashes the gate with the doll, Sansa gets mad and rips the dolls head off and puts it on a spike on the tallest tower. Which is clearly a symbol of claiming a castle. it is right where a banner would be flying, although concurrently it also is a clear sign that Wun-Wun will die in the attempt as well. But I think we can all live with that.

If you really think about the situation that WF is in with Ramsay Snow and the fact that no one else in the books has built a small model of a castle like this, especially one out of Snow. The snow alone symbolizes so many different things as well, namely Jon Snow and Ghost, for the purposes of this theory.

And besides all that, how else is Jon Snow going to reclaim Winterfell? I don't think Theons way in with the grappling hooks to breach the walls is going to work again for anyone, Ramsay will be ready for that, plus he has a lot more soldiers inside the walls then Bran and Maester Luwin did. The only way in is through the gates, and they are big and strong. As stupid of a character as Wun-Wun is, this is his purpose, this is how his friendship with Jon will pay off.

FRom the Theon`s POV chapter from WOW, we found out that Stannis is very much alive, that he imprisoned Theon and discovered the plot against him. Giving the fact that Winterfell is full of those that will turn against Boltons ASAP, Stannis will have a decent chance of victory. And in that case, Stannis would do what he promised, name Jon as the heir of the Winterfell

That`s why I believe Jon will have no participation in reclaiming Winterfell, yet alone Wun-Wun. I have also read the Fire Eater`s thread about Dance of dragons, and I like her idea about Dany landing in the Vale. That way Sansa may encounter with two giants - LF and Tyrion, who might be able to use Arryn force to reclaim Winterfell. Since the giant is led by Arryn hand, it`s greater proof that `giant` will have some connection with Arryns. My guess would be LF as head of Arryn forces. This scene in terms of interpretation can go in various directions, but I doubt it has anything to do with Wun-Wun.

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FRom the Theon`s POV chapter from WOW, we found out that Stannis is very much alive, that he imprisoned Theon and discovered the plot against him. Giving the fact that Winterfell is full of those that will turn against Boltons ASAP, Stannis will have a decent chance of victory. And in that case, Stannis would do what he promised, name Jon as the heir of the Winterfell

That`s why I believe Jon will have no participation in reclaiming Winterfell, yet alone Wun-Wun. I have also read the Fire Eater`s thread about Dance of dragons, and I like her idea about Dany landing in the Vale. That way Sansa may encounter with two giants - LF and Tyrion, who might be able to use Arryn force to reclaim Winterfell. Since the giant is led by Arryn hand, it`s greater proof that `giant` will have some connection with Arryns. My guess would be LF as head of Arryn forces. This scene in terms of interpretation can go in various directions, but I doubt it has anything to do with Wun-Wun.

I agree with all that you said about Dany landing in the Vale and everything. But I definitely think that Jon will have a hand in reclaiming WF as I described. It was his plan in DwD before he got stabbed and I see no reason that when he wakes up he will change his course of action.

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I agree with all that you said about Dany landing in the Vale and everything. But I definitely think that Jon will have a hand in reclaiming WF as I described. It was his plan in DwD before he got stabbed and I see no reason that when he wakes up he will change his course of action.

Just the things in Winterfell are already in motion, and Jon will be too late. The chapter I mentioned happened before Jon`s stabbing, if I am right.

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Just the things in Winterfell are already in motion, and Jon will be too late. The chapter I mentioned happened before Jon`s stabbing, if I am right.

yeah but you think that Dany/LF will get to WF before Jon has a chance to?

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yeah but you think that Dany/LF will get to WF before Jon has a chance to?

No, but one thing is important here, Sansa rips the Giant`s head apart. Jon will get there before Dany/LF, but Sansa will see the danger in LF/Tyrion and deal with them herself. Wun-Wun in the story is just an extra. I don`t believe he has anything to do with this scene.

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No, but one thing is important here, Sansa rips the Giant`s head apart. Jon will get there before Dany/LF, but Sansa will see the danger in LF/Tyrion and deal with them herself. Wun-Wun in the story is just an extra. I don`t believe he has anything to do with this scene.

Ok well IMO he does, being the only Giant we are currently involved with.

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Thanks for the good analysis Ragnorak, MoY.

Queen of Winter, that's an interesting find. And wasn't Simeon Star Eyes the chap that saw a dog fight or some such thing at the Wall? Abysmal memory of mine!

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I think Wun Wun is more likely to help with the rebuilding / repairing of WF ,as giants were rumoured to have helped Bran the builder. Although minor, I don't see him as being a throwaway character at all. Wun Wun's relationship with Jon will create a bridge to understanding with the other giants, as well.

(ETA: between northmen and wildlings, Jon ,e.g.,would be able to repopulate WF and make it fully functional ,but the restoration would have to be done quickly. Winterfell can't be left "lightly held" again, but repopulated , it couldn't survive long with everybody jammed in the way the Bolton forces are in ADwD. Jon has urged Yarwick to use the giants more in the restoration at the wall , but I don't think he'd meet with the same resistance at WF as the extremity of need becomes more apparent.)

I really see LF as the metaphorical giant in TGoHH's dream. I don't know if the following connection has already been made , but Sansa calls SW " Robert ",instead of his "nickname" and King Robert raised LF ( the Titan ) to prominence ( an important member of his small council ). So LF is Robert's giant ..even if Robert didn't see him as a giant at the time.

All the snowflakes melting on cheeks tie the characters to WF and the north.. I have a feeling all those characters will have a role to play in the " mending" of WF ...There's one example that I don't think has been mentioned yet and that's Theon . When he's walking the battlements on the night the HM appears and the Umbers start up their drums ,snowflakes melt on his cheeks and run down like icy tears. ( paraphrase)

Of course that's indicative of his guilt and remorse , but especially after reading his TWoW chapter , I feel that he ,too , will have a role to play in the mending.

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There is something I thought of in relation to Sansa building her snow Winterfell: She was, most likely, born in winter (at the end of winter) and she is the first Stark child born in Winterfell. Robb was born in winter, but at Riverrun - and ironically for the "King in the North," he spent all of his reign in the Riverlands and died there.

Arya, Bran and Rickon are all explicitly summer children. Robb was a winter's child but not born in Winterfell. That leaves Sansa, born in winter and at Winterfell. Someone in the show says that "bells rang when Sansa was born" - and I know this isn't a show thread, but I thought that was interesting, both to tie in with the bells theme discussed above, and that Ned and Cat would be so happy at Sansa's birth that bells would ring. Traditionally, bells were rung when a prince or royal heir was born, in many cultures. In Dorne, a girl would be heir and worthy of bells ringing, but otherwise, Robb would be the "crown prince" and there would be rejoicing at his birth. A girl born after the necessary heir would be welcome, I am sure, but under ordinary circumstances, the heir's birth is the most special.

I think Sansa is symbolically heir to Winterfell or at least guardian of Winterfell due to the juxtaposition of the season and place of her birth. Robb couldn't be King of Winter despite his crown - he was born in the Riverlands and was proclaimed "King in the North" at Riverrun. Jon was born in Dorne (if R + L =J is true, and even if he is Wylla's or Ashara Dayne's son, he was still born in Dorne, not the North). But Sansa was born in Winterfell, the seat of the Starks and Kings of Winter.

And I recall Sansa was sitting inside her snow castle structure when building it - "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" - and so there was.

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Yes, but I think she's a generic Stark in this case. GRRM is bringing the Starks back together now ( or those that can make it ), and I think it will take more than one Stark to fully restore WF. It might only take one for whatever magical wards, etc. to hold, but there's a lot of physical restoration, re-population and such that needs to be done.

Sansa would be an able castle administrator, and is gaining valuable insight into the Vale , the south and the workings of politically duplicitous minds via LF. Jon can inspire men, muster man power to accomplish the work and form a fighting force, and shows signs of becoming a very adept tactician. I think Arya will break free of the FM , but may retain ties to Braavos , or at least gain insight into their politics. In her case, it may be equally important that she not only learn how to work glamours , but see through them.. Bran will restore the Stark history and understanding of what it is to be a Stark , and the true importance of WF. Hard to say what all Rickon will bring to the pack , but I'm sure it will be something of value.( Their innate skinchanging ability is , of course , important for all of them )

I don't think it matters so much where they were born. It's the Stark blood and the fact that they were all raised at WF that's important. And though we know that there has been at least one occasion in the past when the family continued through the female line and it may again now , I'm feeling it's more likely to be through Lyanna to Jon than through Sansa or Arya to some possible future offspring...And I can't see them moving to an ongoing matrilineal line of descent. Husbands' families' ambitions would wreak havoc in the system.

Facing a winter that could last ten years or more , they can't trust to young Rickon's chances of continuing the house. Often children don't survive a hard winter. They need insurance now and the best hope of insurance would seem to lie in Jon.

Though Catelyn's fears about Jon disinheriting her children seemed reasonable when she made them .. Jon may be the best or only chance that they and the House have of surviving.

I do still think Jon would step aside for Rickon if and when the time comes, but that's still a long way off.

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The "giant" wants to get through the gates. He knocks off the top of both gatehouse towers. Are these the two huge bulwarks she builds? Are the people these represent beheaded (literally or manipulatively as is LF's style) or does this represent something else? The giant also attacks the walls but does not breach them before he is caught by Sansa and has his head taken off.

I think the gatehouse and its two bullwarks represent Ned and Robb. The father and brother that Sansa looked to for protection and rescue She calls Sweetrobin Robert here because maybe she blames King Robert (and by extension his "son" Joffrey) for her dad's and brother's death. She tries to stop him but catches the doll/giant (LF) instead. She stops relying on others for protection and spikes the head on the gates of her winterfell herself. The foot of wall exploding could refer to the assassination attempt on Jon at the wall too. All of Sansa's "protectors/saviors" end up dead or almost dead, maybe she figures out she has to act for herself?

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Of course it is early to comment about the sixth novel, "Winds of Winter," as it hasn't been released yet but publishers have commented that there is supposed to be a, "Controversial," Sansa chapter in it. (GOOGLE IT if you haven't heard this story yet). I'm thinking perhaps this "purple serpent," is probably Sansa herself. Most characters comment on her silly girl like innocence, but you know there is something lying underneath. You don't spend time around Cersei, Tyrion, and Littlefinger and not begin to become a little more grown and manipulative/cunning. My theory on Sansa (and of course we have to see where she goes with George R.R. Martin, but I believe she will become grown up and lose the littlegirl facade). I believe the Starks need a political mastermind. They don't need another fighter/swordswoman. Eddard, Robb, loved them both truly, but they had no head for politics. I think many characters have commented on their naivete. Great men, but George R.R. Martin makes this claim often: play the game, win or die. Eddard had far too much integrity and it cost him his life. He wasn't good at making alliances either. He had opportunities to leave King's Landing (Renly being chief among that) and he just didn't make that hard choice. Robb couldn't even marry strategically to save his claim to the throne. And we all read how Eddard let everyone know what he planned to do once he found out the parentage secrets. You tell Cersei? Your asking to be killed. None of them had a head for politics or for being politically cunning. YOU CAN BE A TOUGH FIGHTER, that will win you battles, but you do have to have a head for politics too. The Starks need a cunning Tywin. They have Arya for the smart strategic swordswoman. Do you see what I'm saying? I think Jon is the great leader, but Sansa will have to be the one to make these tough deals. Catelyn was a nightmare at strategy as well (you let your political hostage just go?) Lol... They need a political mastermind.




I think Sansa's foreshadowing herself, in the future. She isn't as weak as people think, (not in the later chapters anyway). She begins to correctly guess Littlefinger's manipulations, and she's learning the art of political intrigue. Meaning, she is losing a little of her dreams and silly songs (she even begins to hate this ie because of Marillion). She ultimately, starts seeing the real world. I think she deserves more credit for that. She knows how stupid she had been as a child, even missing Jon and even thinking of Tyrion and his smile. And, with the rumors of the controversial Sansa chapter in Novel 6, maybe she does begin to strategize and begins to take her fate into her own hands. She knew she had been the little bird saying what they all wanted her too. She comes to despise this about herself. I think this sums her up, "Look like the innocent flower, but with the serpent underneath." Plus she had prayed for Joffrey's death. In her own way, she showed her true nature and just wants to get home. I think she will do whatever she has to do to make that happen (PURPLE SERPENT)... Just an idea because you can't have a better teacher than Cersei and Littlefinger. They are arguably the dirtiest political heads in Westeros. You don't think that is to be feared later? She sat back and watched both of them do their dirty work. I mean, that is to be feared in Sansa later. LOL...


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“Sweet Alayne. I am Marillion. I saw you come in from the rain. The night is chill and wet. Let me warm you.”



“How long have you been out here? You must be very cold. Let me warm you, Sansa. Take off those gloves, give me your hands.”



Marillion told this (bolded part) to Sansa before he tried to rape her. Interestingly, this is exactly what LF told to Sansa before he forcefully kissed her.



Sansa stared at his hands while he spoke. Fat Maddy claimed that Mord had taken off three of his fingers, both pinkies and a ring finger. His little fingers did appear somewhat stiffer than the others, but with those gloves it was hard to be certain. It might have been no more than a story. How would Maddy know?



Sansa noted Marillion’s little finger appearing stiffer than the others. We know that he had tried to rape Sansa once. Is this a hint for the readers to take the stiff little finger as a phallic object? I think it is. And this is one of the many.



“Though I do wish he had a better name than Littlefinger. How little is it, do you know?”


His finger?” She blushed again. “I don’t... I never...”



Littlefinger’s little finger has been busy,”



So, Littlefinger’s little finger is not always his little finger.



When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.



GRRM likes his word plays. Littlefinger will lift his little finger for Sansa, to be sure.



“You know why they call her Gatehouse Ami? She raises her portcullis for every knight who happens by.”



He hopped down from the dais and grabbed Sansa roughly. “Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle.”



“That will give it strength enough to stand, I’d think,” Petyr said. “May I come into your castle, my lady?”



Under one arm he clutched the threadbare cloth doll he carried everywhere.



“I never meant to rip his doll. He was smashing my snow castle, I only . . .”



Sweetrobin was smashing the snow castle of Sansa with the doll he carried everywhere. Dolls are also used as phallic objects sometimes. So the doll being carried everywhere is the same as Littlefinger’s little finger.



Playing come-into-the-castle, smashing portcullis, smashing castles, all speak of intercourse. And in the case of Littlefinger, it will be a rape attempt to Sansa.



More stuff about how I think Sansa's story will proceed is here.


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