Did Theon deserve the reek treatment?

[StannisBamfatheon]

No one deserves the Ramsay treatment-it's just unthinkable.

How does one quantify what someone else deserves anyway? How do you establish a hierarchy of sins and punishments?

I think it certainly a moral quandary, does killing 2 kids and betraying your friend = extensive physical and psycological torture? Who knows it is indeed very hard to say.

However I'm still an unapologetic Stark loyalist, Sansa, Bran, Ned, Robb the whole gang, so I'll never be cool with Theon after the Winterfell betrayal. I still do argue though in the OP he gets more than he gave in terms of his punishment.

ETA: Florina Stark, I thought it was implied but yes I certainly felt terrible for Jeyne Pool for myriad reasons, being Ramsays husband, having to have sex with him, the whole situation....really any situation involving Ramsay just has a horrible sickness, sadness and sadism to it.

[Florina Laufeyson]

When the spearwives find Jeyne and shes all nekkid. They are completely and utterly repulsed. Something about teethmarks on her teats. D: There was that small inkling of "bogus" for Theon again when i realized Ramsay probably did a number on his...member.

[Lady Lea]

I think it certainly a moral quandary, does killing 2 kids and betraying your friend = extensive physical and psycological torture?

He did more than that though. He didn't just betray his best friend, he betrayed everyone he had ever known in Winterfell, he killed Mikken and led to the death of many others at Winterfell, he raped that girl from the kennels, he killed those 2 little boys, and he forced Bran and Rickon to go out into the wild, away from their families and everything they knew.

And if Arya or Sansa had been at Winterfell when he took it, I'm sure he would have tried to marry one of them. Didn't he comment on how he wanted Sansa?

[Swiftraven]

Nobody deserves that treatment.

He made terrible mistakes, and I truly hated him for it. But what Ramsay did to him was so, so cruel, and I do think Theon truly regretted what he did. And then when he thought about Robb, who was his one true brother in every sense of the word, in DwD:

"I should have been with him. Where was I?" I should have died with him"

Sorry, but I almost cried at this point.

[StannisBamfatheon]

He did more than that though. He didn't just betray his best friend, he betrayed everyone he had ever known in Winterfell, he killed Rodrik Cassel and led to the death of many others at Winterfell (Mikken, Maester Luwin, etc), he raped that girl from the kennels, he killed those 2 little boys, and he forced Bran and Rickon to go out into the wild, away from their families and everything they knew.

And if Arya or Sansa had been at Winterfell when he took it, I'm sure he would have tried to marry one of them. Didn't he comment on how he wanted Sansa?

ETA: wait I'm confused. who did he kill at Winterfell again?

True true, I overlooked that. Hey I hope I didn't come across like a Theon apologist or anything? I loathe him and all the other squids, truly. He led to Robb's downfall and betrayed Winterfell, the symbolic heart of the north and dominion of the Starks. And I love me some Starks. And he did express a certain...uhh desire for Sansa(which imo is creepy).

[pitakon]

theon no. Robb yes.

[StannisBamfatheon]

theon no. Robb yes.

the fuck.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Of course nobody deserves that treatment. I wouldn't advocate torture as a suitable punishment for any crime. I pitied him from the moment we got his POV, being torn between loyalty to his Father and loyalty to the Starks, being put in a position where any choice he made would feel like betraying someone. His murder of the children should be punished, yes, but not in this manner. Life imprisonment, or death is fitting, but having to live like that is beyond inhumane. Bearing in mind as well, it was Ramsay who suggested it in the first place.

As for Jeyne Poole, that whole scene is horrific, and I don't know how anyone can do anything but pity her. Bestiality, physical abuse, rape and god knows what else, all besides being forced to marry Ramsay in Arya's place is almost too horrible, even by GRRM's standards.

[The Crow's Eye]

Nobody deserves that. He deserved to answer for his crimes, to be strangled by his stupid "Prince of Winterfell" crown, or to be torn to bits by Grey Wind and then have his head chopped off by Robb (may both of them rest in peace), but he didn't deserve what he suffered at the hands of Ramsay. Again, no one deserves what Ramsay put him through.

[Silver Spearwife]

There is exactly one person who deserves the Ramsay treatment, and it's Ramsay. Okay, well, Gregor probably could have used it, too, but still, you know what I mean.

What Theon did was incredibly stupid and awful. He betrayed his best (and only) friend in the world, killed people who had raised him, and had two little boys flayed, I think, although I'm certain they were already dead. What he deserves for that is to be hated by everyone (check), and to get just a taste of flaying himself (check). He did not deserve to be broken, castrated, and have the sanity flayed out of him.

Yes, I pity Theon. Over the time since I've finished Dance, it's turned from pity to genuine affection. I like Theon and his Dance chapters.

I think the thing I really don't understand is the school of thought that says Theon hasn't suffered enough. Gods be good, what more can you ask of Ramsay?

[TheWizard]

i fucking hated him for betraying Robb Stark. After ADWD i felt sorry for the dude. i mean ya he could of warned Robb but he wasnt the only one to screw him. I always wondered how diffrent Robbs campaign would of went with Jon and Theon. I dont give a shit about two miller kids (i cant be mad at everyone who kills someone for gain in these books). He dosnt deserve the dreadfort treatment or loosing his member.

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't think anyone deserves torture, not even Gregor or Ramsay, so I do not think Theon deserved what he got. But I believe in harsh punishments and/or the death penalty so I think Theon deserved some sort of punishment or execution for murdering two children so long as it's proven that he commited the crime. We know he did, many others know he did including Ramsay, but I still believe in criminals being convicted beyond reasonable doubt. I think executions should be swift and humane regardless of the executionable crime (one of the things I hold against Stannis is his method of burning for execution) so I'd hope for hanging or beheading.

[Batman]

I felt more sorry for poor Jeyne Poole.

This works. I didnt think I would after she was such a miserable bitch to Ayra, but just because she is a mean kid doesnt mean she deserves Ramsay. Sort of an understatment, but still

[TheWizard]

Nobody deserves that treatment.

He made terrible mistakes, and I truly hated him for it. But what Ramsay did to him was so, so cruel, and I do think Theon truly regretted what he did. And then when he thought about Robb, who was his one true brother in every sense of the word, in DwD:

"I should have been with him. Where was I?" I should have died with him"

Sorry, but I almost cried at this point.

i 100% agree with you on this. Such a sad moment :( Theon was in the most fucked up postition with the whole invading the north. Either way he is a turncloak. Ignore your father (bat shit crazy that he was) and fight a war against your house dosnt sound too good. I mean im sure Robb would of taken care of him (give him a random keep, make him hand etc)

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

OK. I'm sure I'll get a lot of flack for this, but Theon was not a traitor or turncloak.

He was Theon GREYJOY. His obligation was to follow his father. He had some moral obligation to House Stark, but that came after his obligation to his own House.

The problem is, being a traitor would have been better. Robb (and Ned for that matter) treated him better than his father and was more righteous than Balon who basically just wanted to pillage and burn.

Theon did a lot of awful things in CoK. But being a traitor was not one of them.

[Jolene Brown]

I felt sorry for Theon even at the end of ACOK, when he knew he couldn't hold Winterfell and he was basically completely on his own (yes, I'm a sucker), and particularly when he saw Smiler burning and realized how very screwed he was (I thought this was the end of the character, actually). So, after ADWD, I definitely felt that he got more than he deserved. However, re-reading ACOK did remind me of just how much he was responsible for (even though I still pity him, I can't help it!). What I find interesting is how often he mentions he wants to die, and yet we know he has a dagger, and that he COULD kill himself - but he doesn't. There is a part of him that still wants to live, as degraded and debased as he has become. I don't think it's only wanting to die in battle, with a sword as his hand, as he says a couple times - there's a part of him that wants to live straight up, no matter how crappy his life is. I think it's strangely relatable.

[Tagganaro]

OK. I'm sure I'll get a lot of flack for this, but Theon was not a traitor or turncloak.

He was Theon GREYJOY. His obligation was to follow his father. He had some moral obligation to House Stark, but that came after his obligation to his own House.

The problem is, being a traitor would have been better. Robb (and Ned for that matter) treated him better than his father and was more righteous than Balon who basically just wanted to pillage and burn.

Theon did a lot of awful things in CoK. But being a traitor was not one of them.

Theon was never ordered by his father to take WF. That would be one thing. To go out of his way to do so is something entirely different. Plus, I'm of the opinion that once your father shows you he's an asshole who could care less about you, you should go with the family who treated you well all things considered (considering he was a hostage for good behavior from said asshole father).

[Captain Victarion Greyjoy]

OK. I'm sure I'll get a lot of flack for this, but Theon was not a traitor or turncloak.

He was Theon GREYJOY. His obligation was to follow his father. He had some moral obligation to House Stark, but that came after his obligation to his own House.

The problem is, being a traitor would have been better. Robb (and Ned for that matter) treated him better than his father and was more righteous than Balon who basically just wanted to pillage and burn.

Theon did a lot of awful things in CoK. But being a traitor was not one of them.

well this is very intresting about Theon POV ...he is like an adopted child who has to pick from his real family and his curent family. Everything he would do would make him look bad.

We have here in my country a saying " The real parents are the parents that raise you not the one that make you" based on that he might be a turncloak... first of all he betrayed Robb who was counting on him , for what ?a family that doesn't give to cents about you. A father who would have risked his son life without essitation ?

Theon should have realised that Balon is an idiot...but I guess he cared somehow for the ironmen , if he would have told Rob about his father intentions he would be a traitor not only for his family bt to the whole Pike.

[The Bastard of Summer]

I don't think he did. He is one the few characters I feel sorry for. Poor guy just can't catch a break. I know this may seem unfair compared to the way I view other characters, but I have a soft spot for Theon. I just would like to hug the poor boy. I guess it just comes down to me understanding him and why he did the things he did.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Theon was never ordered by his father to take WF. That would be one thing. To go out of his way to do so is something entirely different. Plus, I'm of the opinion that once your father shows you he's an asshole who could care less about you, you should go with the family who treated you well all things considered (considering he was a hostage for good behavior from said asshole father).

But he was still fighting against the North and House Stark at his father's orders. Taking WF didn't start that. It just gave him a bigger chance to royally fuck up things. Which he took to impressive levels.

And I agree with you. Theon would have been in a much better place if he had just said fuck it and betrayed his family to the Starks.

well this is very intresting about Theon POV ...he is like an adopted child who has to pick from his real family and his curent family. Everything he would do would make him look bad.

We have here in my country a saying " The real parents are the parents that raise you not the one that make you" based on that he might be a turncloak... first of all he betrayed Robb who was counting on him , for what ?a family that doesn't give to cents about you. A father who would have risked his son life without essitation ?

Theon should have realised that Balon is an idiot...but I guess he cared somehow for the ironmen , if he would have told Rob about his father intentions he would be a traitor not only for his family bt to the whole Pike.

No. He was not an adopted child. He was a hostage. Don't get me wrong. Ned and the Starks took VERY GOOD care of him. They treated like family. Maybe not a son, but a cousin at least. But that doesn't change his duty to his family.

Again, in his case, being a traitor is actually the more moral option.