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Rude W*nkers I have met - Atheism & Religion in the Social Context 2


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Guest Raidne

Oh, geez. I would never be offended if someone says that they'll pray for me, think about me, send me good thoughts, wish me good karma, or burn sage to clear things for me. They are all facets of the same thing. It is about people offering their version of positive spiritual feelings towards you. If you think that is rude, then it's a you problem, not a them problem.

With all due respect, I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to get across. I'll put it a different way - it's the hypocrisy of the thing. If I was a pagan and I told my Aunt (who posts that she'll pray for me to the wall on my Facebook page) that I would perform some ritual for her, she would be in deep distress because this would interfere with her own belief system. If someone respects my beliefs, I will respect theirs. If offering to pray for me is part of their belief system, then I will respect that. And vice versa, right?

But with the very strict monotheistic religions where all other religions are a manifestation of Satan, there is a bit of a problem. Honestly, if you really believed in all this stuff, how could there not be? You don't want other people asking their God to intervene in your life! Who knows what their God does! And what if your God gets jealous? If there's anything we can learn from Greek mythology, it's that it's just not going to end well.

But hey, I don't actually believe in any of that crap, so sure, I can be polite. But there's no expectation that I'll get it back - ever - and it's annoying. Hence why people are anti-Christian oftentimes without being anti-religion.

I wonder if there is a lot of contention between theists and atheists in, say, Japan. It never came up when I was in Taiwan, but then I never really went looking for the debate and sort of assumed everyone was Buddhist/Taoist.

Doubt it. Buddhism and Christianity have not exactly historically developed into very similar religions. Which is too bad, because they could have ended up fairly similar, and maybe are for some small subset of practicing Christians.

But these people think they are helping you. I mean, my Hindu cousins in Utah have probably collected hundreds of Books of Mormon that have been slipped into their lockers or handed to them, but they don't really worry about it.

You think getting Books of Mormon from associates is equivalent to getting a Bible from a family member for Christmas or your birthday?

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Doubt it. Buddhism and Christianity have not exactly historically developed into very similar religions. Which is too bad, because they could have ended up fairly similar, and maybe are for some small subset of practicing Christians.

Oddly enough japanese buddhism is usually cited as the one religion that kinda approaches medieval christianity in some of it's structures and schisms.

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With all due respect, I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to get across. I'll put it a different way - it's the hypocrisy of the thing. If I was a pagan and I told my Aunt (who posts that she'll pray for me to the wall on my Facebook page) that I would perform some ritual for her, she would be in deep distress because this would interfere with her own belief system. If someone respects my beliefs, I will respect theirs. If offering to pray for me is part of their belief system, then I will respect that. And vice versa, right?

But with the very strict monotheistic religions where all other religions are a manifestation of Satan, there is a bit of a problem. Honestly, if you really believed in all this stuff, how could there not be? You don't want other people asking their God to intervene in your life! Who knows what their God does! And what if your God gets jealous? If there's anything we can learn from Greek mythology, it's that it's just not going to end well.

But hey, I don't actually believe in any of that crap, so sure, I can be polite. But there's no expectation that I'll get it back - ever - and it's annoying. Hence why people are anti-Christian oftentimes without being anti-religion.

Agreed. How about this board? I tell people that I will pray for them if they have problems. I don't think this is proselytizing. If I am confronted with intolerance, then I respond. If your aunt is pushing your button, then that's an idiot aunt. From other comments that she has made, it sounds like she is a button pusher at worse or an insensitive person at best. Luckily, the offer of prayers I have received have been the thoughtful type, not the I wish to convert you, you heathen type.

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Oddly enough japanese buddhism is usually cited as the one religion that kinda approaches medieval christianity in some of it's structures and schisms.

Really? In what way? Medieval Christianity was pretty, shall I say Medieval. As in it's all about the next life. That made sense in a way, being that most people lived hell on earth lives. I'm not being contrary, I just want to know more about this. :)

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gotta love the door-to-door salesperson peregrinations of the LDS. it's perfectly consistent.

what's more offensive is all the bhagavad gitas that get handed out in my locale.

In what way is it offensive? I know they used to be pushy in every way at airports. Maybe you are too young to remember. At UF, Hare Krishnas offer a free vegan dinner every Thursday. I think that is a nice way to attract people into their place. You don't have to go, or you can go and eat and leave.

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Really? In what way? Medieval Christianity was pretty, shall I say Medieval. As in it's all about the next life. That made sense in a way, being that most people lived hell on earth lives. I'm not being contrary, I just want to know more about this. :)

Well, so was, kinda, Japanese Buddhism (variants of Pure Land being the most popular sects) they also had similar focus on monasticism (with monasteries often holding land and power and being something of a sepaate power-base in the way the church was) etc.

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Well, so was, kinda, Japanese Buddhism (variants of Pure Landbeing the most popular sects) they also had similar focus on monasticism (with monasteries often holding land and power and being something of a sepaate power-base in the way the church was) etc.

Yep, got it. Not a bad way to go in those days, though. You are offered food, shelter, and a whip. Did the Buddhist priests of the times do a lot of mortification? Fasting doesn't count.

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For true? By Indians or Hare Krishnas?

not at all true. there is a HK temple in my neighborhood, though. they hand out free food.

ETA:

In what way is it offensive?

irony! like goldy and bronzy but made of iron!

Well you got two of us!

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Guest Raidne

Agreed. How about this board? I tell people that I will pray for them if they have problems. I don't think this is proselytizing.

(1) If the person belonged to a religion that thought you were sinning against that God when you prayed on behalf of that person to your God, then it's arguable that you'd be behaving in a way that was insensitive to that person's sincerely held religious beliefs

(2) If you are one of the people who thinks that people who pray for you to a different God or gods are sinning against your God, then it is hypocritical of you to tell people you will pray for them and you shouldn't be a hypocrite

(3) If neither of those things are true, go ahead

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Bai knows I'm not religious, but if she says she'll pray for me when I'm going through a tough time, I take that as her being genuinely nice, and caring enough to attempt to get her god to intervene for me. Do I believe in it? No, but where's the harm? If she prayed for something and it happened to me, I wouldn't immediately contribute it to her praying, but I'd appreciate the thought. And besides, who knows if it made a difference?

I agree that if someone says they'll pray for me to "find god", I'd be a bit insulted, but again, I don't believe in it, so I don't see any harm in them doing so. I just wouldn't wish to speak to them again.

When it comes to older people, I've always been waaay more lenient than I am with younger people, and seeing as it's usually little old ladies who say they'll pray for me, or say stuff like 'God bless you', I can hardly tell them to fuck off.

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then it is hypocritical of you to tell people you will pray for them and you shouldn't be a hypocrite

Hate to be a douche-nozzle buuuuutttt -> Technically, it isn't hypocritical is it? Just annoying right?

eta: As in, they have the Truth and must hope others see it as well whether others have fallen for Satan's tricks (other religions) or atheism?

From the other side, if beliefs are a result of input and acceptance of said beliefs are a result of prior states extending to birth, then an atheist-materialist judging anyone for anything is hypocritical no? Or at least inconsistent, I have trouble identifying the difference [between inconsistency and hypocrisy] from a logical perspective[.]

eta2: Note the above, IMO, seems to hold whether one believes in the computability of consciousness or not. I tend to think not at the moment, but I also think this can't be proven.

eta3: Wait, sorry, typing fast and getting confused. I suppose believing in the non-computability of consciousness lets you off that hook.

But again, just beginning my reading of philosophy.

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When it comes to older people, I've always been waaay more lenient than I am with younger people, and seeing as it's usually little old ladies who say they'll pray for me, or say stuff like 'God bless you', I can hardly tell them to fuck off.

You don't have to tell them to "fuck off" to convey your own stance. A simple "Oh how nice of you. I wish I believed in God so that your prayer won't be wasted, but I do appreciate your thoughtfulness." or "Thank you, but I don't believe God. But thanks all the same."

Of course, most of us are trained to avoid social awkwardness or confrontations, so we are much more likely to simply endure the well-meaning but still irritating phrasings and prayer offerings from those who are religious. But it does create, for some of us, a constant background level annoyance.

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You don't have to tell them to "fuck off" to convey your own stance. A simple "Oh how nice of you. I wish I believed in God so that your prayer won't be wasted, but I do appreciate your thoughtfulness." or "Thank you, but I don't believe God. But thanks all the same."

Of course, most of us are trained to avoid social awkwardness or confrontations, so we are much more likely to simply endure the well-meaning but still irritating phrasings and prayer offerings from those who are religious. But it does create, for some of us, a constant background level annoyance.

To be honest I don't come across it all that often, religion has never really encroached on my life enough for me to be as pissed off about it as some of you here are. I suppose I'd say "Thank you, that's nice of you" rather than put them straight, but I can see why it'd get really annoying if you were confronted with this type of situation on a fairly regular basis. Maybe a badge might come in handy? ;)

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another thing - what's up with slut-shaming atheists? how does that make sense?

eta: You know, I've never met a wanker atheist who wasn't a guy. I'm not proposing a causal relationship, but demographic inquiries are something of interest in this regard...

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