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R+L=J v.31


Stubby

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To return to talk about towers I just came upon an interesting quote from Arianne chapter:

Beneath the burning sun of Dorne, wealth was measured as much in water as in gold, so every well was zealously guarded.

Was there a well near ToJ no one knew about? Or were they bringing all their watter from somewhere else, I can't imagine the location remaining secret for too long in that case. Not to mention man power needed for that.

Wow, just in the quote you provided, I noticed another "Dune" analogy.

That is a good point though, and while the everyday things we take for granted, just getting water for drinking, cleaning, etc. as well as food was a major undertaking for any of the Castles, the older the structure was, the more challenging.

And given Lady Octarinas great observation about the Architectual shifts, a Tower like that probably was even more of an undertaking. Maybe it took a year to even get it habitable, and if I understand the nature of the Hot Springs and that water coursing through the walls of Winterfell, it may be a good bet Lyanna and her family were the only ones to have the benefit of hot, "running" water in their home, at least to some degree.

But, it really must have been hidden for no one to notice just basic, day-to-day activities.

HOLY CRAP that's an awesome video! Already watched it 3 times. I love listening to Joff whimper. How friggin stupid do you have to be? Just take a half step backwards Joffy, better yet, just stand up straight. IT'S ONLY 18 INCHES!

Exactly, just step away.

In the TV series, Cersei even managed to tag him.

LOL :D

Book number one was definitely the most revealing because we have Ned's POV. So first and foremost there is the dialogue at ToJ with the KG (which in my most humble opinion says it all. "We swore a vow...") and of course many of Ned's inner dialogues. For example the one about rhaegar when he visits the brothel. Why speak well of someone who kidnapped/raped your sister? Ned never talks negatively about him. Au contraire, Robert does. Which probably means they knew two very different versios of what happened.

I agree.

Caitlyn thinks the ferocity of Neds reaction to Jons Mother has to do with his "passionate" love of Mother, which he does fiercely love the Mother- it was his beloved Sister.

She doesn't understand, because she doesn't know that that ferocity is to protect Jons idenity, as well as Caitlyn and his children.

Caitlyn has "plausible deniability," (if such a thing mattered in those days, which it may not have), because if Robert and the Lannisters knew who Jon was, they would destroy his entire family.

I think Neds desire to have Jon go to the Wall was to protect him, but also to keep him out of the GOT, whereas Benjen may have been a little more like Brandon in nature, (i.e., fercocious, aggressive), and may have been apt to fight for Jons claim had he been free to do so, which is where Benjens comment of "mores the pity" in response to Jons statement, (I believe), about Benjen not being his Father as opposed to Ned is signifigant.

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I don't know if I would read into that - you could - but I think Benjen was just trying to say he would be proud to have Jon for a son since he was being all emo about his bastardness at that point in the story.

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I have just reread that passage - Luwin suggesting Night's Watch and Ned's reaction : he wants good life for Jon - honour,prestige,even a bastard can rise high in Night Watch,he doesn't even think about protection - no need for that,Robert is their King,and Ned wouldn't question that by bringing up Jon as heir,and this's caused his broken promises.

But,Benjen himself had come up to Luwin,speaking about the possibility. If there had been any sort of frictions between him and Ned regarding Jon's upbringing,he wouldn't have contemplated the option.

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R + L = J, is an interesting topic ( I am 99percent convinced it is true).. but, alas, I came to these web pages in Jan 2012... opinions are cast in stone now... debate is really over, I hope that GRRM supplies a definitive answer to R + L = J. I m not exactly sure how he can do that ( I dont think hearsay is definitive).

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I have just reread that passage - Luwin suggesting Night's Watch and Ned's reaction : he wants good life for Jon - honour,prestige,even a bastard can rise high in Night Watch,he doesn't even think about protection - no need for that,Robert is their King,and Ned wouldn't question that by bringing up Jon as heir,and this's caused his broken promises.

But,Benjen himself had come up to Luwin,speaking about the possibility. If there had been any sort of frictions between him and Ned regarding Jon's upbringing,he wouldn't have contemplated the option.

No, I think that Ned wants Jon to be happy, but I do think that Ned would want to keep Jon away from Court as he grew- just in case anyone , say like Varys, was clever enough to see beyond Jons coloring and recognize Rhaegars attributes.

I also think that there will be some interesting compare/contrast on the Stark siblings, especially as it seems that Meera already does it a bit.

While Ned carrys out his duty quietly and stoically, had Brandon lived and Benjen not gone to the Wall, they may have taken it to a different level.

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Meera?? How so? Pretty please,elaborate! :)

It's just the part when she's talking to Bran about the events at Harrenhal, and the way she describes the "wolves."

- Brandon: The "wild" wolfe, (the Alpha male).

- Lyanna: The "she" wolfe, (the Alpha female).

- Ned: The "quiet" wolfe, (the follower).

- Benjen: The "pup." (still protected on some level).

All in all, Meeras description seems unassuming, however, when you break down the descriptions and what we learn later of their personalities, they correlate.

Cersei says that Brandon was the one born to lead, and Ned was just a soldier.

She probably knew Brandon as well, and being "born to lead" probably means more than just a nod to his being the firstborn, so I think it's possible Brandon may have been more ruthless.

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I don't think Lyanna stayed at the Tower of Joy for a year.

I think she was on Dragonstone. Rhaegar could have taken her to the Tower thinking she'd be more protected before leaving for King's Landing and the Trident. That way, no one would have noticed day to day activities at the Tower. Also, we already know that Rhaenys and Viserys have been sent to Dragonstone after the start of the rebellion, so Dragonstone would have been relatively empty. I just don't think the Dornishmen would have accepted Rhaegar's 'paramour' in a Tower on their territory, which means Lyanna couldn't have stayed there that long.

Also, if we draw a parallel between Arya and Lyanna, it's pretty clear that Lyanna would have gone with Rhaegar, and another Arya parallel-Lyanna wouldn't have foreseen the consequences, because I think Arya's pretty reckless, impulsive and passionate.

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I don't think Lyanna stayed at the Tower of Joy for a year.

I think she was on Dragonstone. Rhaegar could have taken her to the Tower thinking she'd be more protected before leaving for King's Landing and the Trident. That way, no one would have noticed day to day activities at the Tower. Also, we already know that Rhaenys and Viserys have been sent to Dragonstone after the start of the rebellion, so Dragonstone would have been relatively empty. I just don't think the Dornishmen would have accepted Rhaegar's 'paramour' in a Tower on their territory, which means Lyanna couldn't have stayed there that long.

The thing is, at least some Dornishmen close to the Martells accepted Rhaegar's thing with Lyanna and keeping her in their territory: the Daynes. I have explained what I think the Martells' position was on the previous thread, I'll just add that, if we assume Elia and her brothers were against Rhaegar's plans, taking Lyanna to the ToJ or Dragonstone would be equally offensive to them, as Dragonstone was Rhaegar's seat, basically his and Elia's home. On a bad comparison, it would be like Ned taking a paramour to Winterfell while Catelyn was visiting Riverrun.

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I just remembered something else. In AGOT, when the Dothraki rape a girl of the Lamb men, Ser Jorah Mormont says to Dany(who stopped the rape):

The knight gave her a curious look. “You are your brother’s sister, in truth.”

“Viserys?” She did not understand.

“No,” he answered. “Rhaegar.”

Ever since I read that, I knew that Jon must be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, and that he had never raped her, as King Bob claimed.

However, that raises a question as well. If the story of how Rhaegar raped Lyanna is well known(at least to the older generation of characters) what does Jorah Mormont know? How could he know? Or was he just trying to please Dany? But why would he, when she already trusted him immensly?

The thing is, at least some Dornishmen close to the Martells accepted Rhaegar's thing with Lyanna and keeping her in their territory: the Daynes. I have explained what I think the Martells' position was on the previous thread, I'll just add that, if we assume Elia and her brothers were against Rhaegar's plans, taking Lyanna to the ToJ or Dragonstone would be equally offensive to them, as Dragonstone was Rhaegar's seat, basically his and Elia's home. On a bad comparison, it would be like Ned taking a paramour to Winterfell while Catelyn was visiting Riverrun.

Well, if Elia was in King's Landing at the time, which would mean her Dornish guards and handmaids would be there as well, Dragonstone would be free of Dornishmen, and also, the rest of the royal family would be in KL as well. Which would leave only the Targaryen guards and servants in Dragonstone, and if we assume that they were faithful(the smallfolk loved Rhaegar), no one outside of Dragonstone would find out that Lyanna was there.

But what if Bear Island had a role in the whole Lyanna/Rhaegar business and that's why Old Bear took the black, and Jorah went in exile? He says he was too afraid to face Ned because he was dealing with slaves, but what if he was actually afraid of Ned because of something else?

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Cersei says that Brandon was the one born to lead, and Ned was just a soldier.

She probably knew Brandon as well, and being "born to lead" probably means more than just a nod to his being the firstborn, so I think it's possible Brandon may have been more ruthless.

Did that actually happen in the books? I only recall that line from the show.

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I just remembered something else. In AGOT, when the Dothraki rape a girl of the Lamb men, Ser Jorah Mormont says to Dany(who stopped the rape):

Ever since I read that, I knew that Jon must be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, and that he had never raped her, as King Bob claimed.

However, that raises a question as well. If the story of how Rhaegar raped Lyanna is well known(at least to the older generation of characters) what does Jorah Mormont know? How could he know? Or was he just trying to please Dany? But why would he, when she already trusted him immensly?

Well, if Elia was in King's Landing at the time, which would mean her Dornish guards and handmaids would be there as well, Dragonstone would be free of Dornishmen, and also, the rest of the royal family would be in KL as well. Which would leave only the Targaryen guards and servants in Dragonstone, and if we assume that they were faithful(the smallfolk loved Rhaegar), no one outside of Dragonstone would find out that Lyanna was there.

But what if Bear Island had a role in the whole Lyanna/Rhaegar business and that's why Old Bear took the black, and Jorah went in exile? He says he was too afraid to face Ned because he was dealing with slaves, but what if he was actually afraid of Ned because of something else?

I disagree; Dragonstone is too close to King's Landing for Rhaegar to prevent word getting there about Lyanna's whereabouts. Unless he did like Stannis and forbade ships from leaving the island, which is highly unlikely. Which also means that, if Lyanna had gone to a place like Dragonstone, people would know sooner or later about it, and yet no characters ever indicate that she had been so close to the capital. No, Lyanna was kept in a secluded place all along; maybe not the ToJ from the start, but somewhere else that wouldn't draw attention to them.

But I agree with you that Jorah's comments about Rhaegar are at least strange. I doubt he had anything to do with Lyanna's disappearance or helped Rhaegar in any way in that case, but he does speak like someone who knew the prince much better than you'd expect a northerner to. My guess is that he was fostered in King's Landing, maybe grew up with Rhaegar. He is a Ser, after all, which means he was in the South for a while in his youth.

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I don't think Lyanna stayed at the Tower of Joy for a year.

I think she was on Dragonstone. Rhaegar could have taken her to the Tower thinking she'd be more protected before leaving for King's Landing and the Trident. That way, no one would have noticed day to day activities at the Tower. Also, we already know that Rhaenys and Viserys have been sent to Dragonstone after the start of the rebellion, so Dragonstone would have been relatively empty. I just don't think the Dornishmen would have accepted Rhaegar's 'paramour' in a Tower on their territory, which means Lyanna couldn't have stayed there that long.

Also, if we draw a parallel between Arya and Lyanna, it's pretty clear that Lyanna would have gone with Rhaegar, and another Arya parallel-Lyanna wouldn't have foreseen the consequences, because I think Arya's pretty reckless, impulsive and passionate.

While I agree it is certainly possible that Rhaegar and Lyanna are not at the Tower of Joy for an entire year (Rhaegar for the time before he heads North to King's Landing) I doubt that they hide on Dragonstone. Remember Rhaegar can't be found by his father, and it seems very likely that Dragonstone might be one of the first places one would look for the Prince of that isle.

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I don't think Lyanna stayed at the Tower of Joy for a year.

I think she was on Dragonstone. Rhaegar could have taken her to the Tower thinking she'd be more protected before leaving for King's Landing and the Trident. That way, no one would have noticed day to day activities at the Tower. Also, we already know that Rhaenys and Viserys have been sent to Dragonstone after the start of the rebellion, so Dragonstone would have been relatively empty. I just don't think the Dornishmen would have accepted Rhaegar's 'paramour' in a Tower on their territory, which means Lyanna couldn't have stayed there that long.

Also, if we draw a parallel between Arya and Lyanna, it's pretty clear that Lyanna would have gone with Rhaegar, and another Arya parallel-Lyanna wouldn't have foreseen the consequences, because I think Arya's pretty reckless, impulsive and passionate.

If you check the location of ToJ on the map, it's not actually Dorne proper but on its borders, over the mountains. If there isn't much traffic in the Prince's pass (I suppose trade is done mostly by sea), someone taking up an old watchtower would escape notice for quite some time. Even if there was some local population, the news wouldn't spread much, smallfolk only rarely travelled at medieval times unless they had a very profound reason. Doran most probably didn't maintain any spies there, either, since there was no danger for Dorne from that direction. All in all, it still comes out as a conveniently abandoned location which no-one would ever suspect.

As for Lyanna's hypothetical stay on Dragonstone: that is a big fortress, demanding too many people to run to be sure that none of them would talk, and as others have pointed out, the first place where anyone would look for Rhaegar. IMHO, if Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't go straight to ToJ, they kept a low profile in places where no-one would ever expect the Crown Prince and his mistress. Lyanna was no dainty southern flower, she could take some hardship.

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this is from one of tyrion's povs in agot:

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn,

guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of

herself in her son.

it wasn't in italic so it isn't his thoughts. do you think it's just an inconsequential phrase, especially being on tyrion's pov?

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I think it's another hint he's a Stark. Many people think his father is really Ned Stark, thus he got Stark's feature from him. But I believe he got Stark's feature from his mother.

to be honest I wasn't aware of R+L=J until I found it accidentally somewhere on the internet after I've read SoS

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this is from one of tyrion's povs in agot:

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn,

guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of

herself in her son.

it wasn't in italic so it isn't his thoughts. do you think it's just an inconsequential phrase, especially being on tyrion's pov?

I too am re-reading agot. And one thing I'm realizing while reading is how subtle GRRM has been on this topic. I speak for myself here, but I think if that sentence was italicized, my suspicions would have been raised on the topic of Jon's birth.

I don't know if I should be embarrassed by this, but I really didn't consider R+L=J untill I vivisted these forums. And I credit that completely to GRRM's sophisticated writing.

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I too am re-reading agot. And one thing I'm realizing while reading is how subtle GRRM has been on this topic. I speak for myself here, but I think if that sentence was italicized, my suspicions would have been raised on the topic of Jon's birth.

I don't know if I should be embarrassed by this, but I really didn't consider R+L=J untill I vivisted these forums. And I credit that completely to GRRM's sophisticated writing.

I didn't either. didn't even get close. it got stuck in my head that benjen could be his dad just because they seemed to have a particular connection. but now I'm almost entirely sold on r+l=j.

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