R+L=J v.31

[three-eyed monkey]

Plurabel, in third-person limited pov italics represent a change to first person, but the whole chapter is narrated from Tyrion's point of view, albeit in third person. Imo, the line you quote is designed to reinforce what GRRM has already told you, that Jon is Ned's bastard, so to disguise the R+L=J 'twist'. Tyrion has no reason to think Jon is not Ned's bastard so he thinks Jon's mother left no trace in him, but if he knew what we knew and was of the opinion that Lyanna was Jon's mother then the quote might well read: Whoever his father had been, he had left little of himself in his son.

[Alia of the knife]

Did that actually happen in the books? I only recall that line from the show.

Yes, it was from the show.

this is from one of tyrion's povs in agot:

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn,

guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of

herself in her son.

it wasn't in italic so it isn't his thoughts. do you think it's just an inconsequential phrase, especially being on tyrion's pov?

Martin is a Master when it comes to double entendres,' ironies and statements that could have more than one meaning.

That statement, if we accept that Lyanna is Jons Mother is one of those ironies, because she is the Stark that Jon looks like, with his real Fathers idenity well concealed under his coloring and appearance.

You have to start looking at Jons mannerisms, personality, and physical build to see the shadow of Rhaegar, and only someone who knew Rhaegar intimately would notice those attributes in Jon, and put two and two together.

Another one of those examples is the statement: "The Prince that Was Promised."

This was brought up by another poster and I thought it was genious.

Often prophesies get misinterpreted because of all the possible meanings, and Rhaegar actually believed that Aegon was TPtWP, at what point he may have changed his mind, if he did, I don't know, but when you look at the way Jon enters the world, i.e., battles raging around, and a Great Knight falls,The Sword of the Morning whose seat is Starfall, and the words Lyanna said to Ned, perhaps to spare him, or just to raise him and keep him safe, is yet another way the idenity of this Prince Who is Promised, is put forth.

"Promise me Ned....."

(Also, you should take a look at Frozenfire3 links to the graphic novels that she has a couple of pages back, and basically Jon looks like a cross between Lyanna and Viserys, which by default, Rhaegar). :)

[plurabel]

thanks for the answers! yes, I realized that even though the passage wasn't italicized it was probably still within tyrion's actual point of view. also, I do appreciate that george uses irony sometimes, it makes it all the better, doesn't it? :)

one of my aims with the re-read that I just started is to pay more attention to back history, which I didn't the first time until I realized it would shed light on so many plot points. I am enjoying my re-read way more than I thought I would, by the way. I'm surprised at how it doesn't get old even though I already know about major twists etc. this forum helps A LOT, I'm pretty slow to pick up on some stuff... :blushing:

in any case, do you guys think it's useless to post quotes like those or healthy to the general discussion even though they may be of little relevance for the whole r+l=j theory?

edited for typo.

[three-eyed monkey]

The fact that the books can be re-read over and over again are a credit to GRRM and a real stamp of the man's genius. And I always love when people quote from the text, even though I'm piss poor at it myself.

[sagaz]

Martin is a Master when it comes to double entendres,' ironies and statements that could have more than one meaning.

That statement, if we accept that Lyanna is Jons Mother is one of those ironies, because she is the Stark that Jon looks like, with his real Fathers idenity well concealed under his coloring and appearance.

You have to start looking at Jons mannerisms, personality, and physical build to see the shadow of Rhaegar, and only someone who knew Rhaegar intimately would notice those attributes in Jon, and put two and two together.

Another one of those examples is the statement: "The Prince that Was Promised."

This was brought up by another poster and I thought it was genious.

Often prophesies get misinterpreted because of all the possible meanings, and Rhaegar actually believed that Aegon was TPtWP, at what point he may have changed his mind, if he did, I don't know, but when you look at the way Jon enters the world, i.e., battles raging around, and a Great Knight falls,The Sword of the Morning whose seat is Starfall, and the words Lyanna said to Ned, perhaps to spare him, or just to raise him and keep him safe, is yet another way the idenity of this Prince Who is Promised, is put forth.

"Promise me Ned....."

Another one in the same "vein" is when southrons (especially Lannisters) damn someone. They use the idiom "others take her/him/them"

(clearly remember Tyrion using this for Cersei, and Jaime for Brienne. I don't recall specifically other people using it but sure there is someone)

I wonder the etymology of the phrase... ;)

Sorry if this is off topic. :blush:

[FittleLinger]

Another one in the same "vein" is when southrons (especially Lannisters) damn someone. They use the idiom "others take her/him/them"

(clearly remember Tyrion using this for Cersei, and Jaime for Brienne. I don't recall specifically other people using it but sure there is someone)

I wonder the etymology of the phrase... ;)

Sorry if this is off topic. :blush:

Robert tells Ned - "Others take your honour!" Robert could as well be classified a southron. I've always figured it was an equivalent of "the Devils take..." or "The Hell with..." Interesting contrast with real world - their "Devils" and "Hell" in this context, are ice-related, rather than fire.

ETA: In a setting, where you have several years of winter, that are generally times of famine, sorrow and death, whereas summer is much, much better, it's only culturally natural to associate hell and devils with ice and cold.

[valyrian_steel]

I just remembered something else. In AGOT, when the Dothraki rape a girl of the Lamb men, Ser Jorah Mormont says to Dany(who stopped the rape):

Ever since I read that, I knew that Jon must be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, and that he had never raped her, as King Bob claimed.

However, that raises a question as well. If the story of how Rhaegar raped Lyanna is well known(at least to the older generation of characters) what does Jorah Mormont know? How could he know? Or was he just trying to please Dany? But why would he, when she already trusted him immensly?

I dont really consider much of what Jorah says as first hand knowledge. He certainly has an opinion of Rhaegar, but I believe it's based on stories he was told by others. Remember, Jorah was knighted by King Robert for bravery during the fall of Pyke that ended the Greyjoy rebellion. Considering where Bear Island is and that Jorah wasnt even a knight until well after Rhaegar died, I find it unlikely they ever met and even less likely he knew the man. While he may have seen Rhaegar in tourneys, I take most of what Jorah says on the subject as second hand news.

[valyrian_steel]

this is from one of tyrion's povs in agot:

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn,

guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of

herself in her son.

it wasn't in italic so it isn't his thoughts. do you think it's just an inconsequential phrase, especially being on tyrion's pov?

Well, if the premise is wrong it's likely the conclusion is wrong. If u change the constant Tyrion knows from Ned to Lyanna, then Tyrion then it's "Whoever his father had been, he had left little of himself in his son." In other words Tyrion believe's John other parent could have looked like anything and Jon would look the same.

[valyrian_steel]

As Scarlett mentioned, the amount of time the "kidnapping" unfolded over is interesting. If we assume it's a year, isnt that a long time for three members of the KG to be with Rhaegar while a rebellion is brewing? Did they join Rhaegar later, perhaps being sent to find him and bring him back to KL? Considering the location of TofJ, someone, likely Dayne, must have know where Rhaegar was hold up for this to work. I guess it follows that Rhaegar agreed to return to KL only if the KG remained to guard his wife and unborn child.

[Scarlet Seastar]

As Scarlett mentioned, the amount of time the "kidnapping" unfolded over is interesting. If we assume it's a year, isnt that a long time for three members of the KG to be with Rhaegar while a rebellion is brewing? Did they join Rhaegar later, perhaps being sent to find him and bring him back to KL? Considering the location of TofJ, someone, likely Dayne, must have know where Rhaegar was hold up for this to work. I guess it follows that Rhaegar agreed to return to KL only if the KG remained to guard his wife and unborn child.

That's how I have always imagined it in my head.

Also, Ser Barristan doesn't talk about Rhaegar the way Jorah talked. Which is why I am assuming Jorah knows something more than Barristan.

I think when Jon finds out who his real parents are(I am taking R+L=J as a fact here, I hope it doesn't turn out another way), he will first think that he is the product of rape. And afterwards, he will find out the real truth, probably from Bran.

I just wonder what are we fans going to do if it turns out that Jon is actually Ned and Ashara Dayne's son. I think I am going to burn the books in rage. Or at least the page on which it would be written.

[three-eyed monkey]

As Scarlett mentioned, the amount of time the "kidnapping" unfolded over is interesting. If we assume it's a year, isnt that a long time for three members of the KG to be with Rhaegar while a rebellion is brewing? Did they join Rhaegar later, perhaps being sent to find him and bring him back to KL? Considering the location of TofJ, someone, likely Dayne, must have know where Rhaegar was hold up for this to work. I guess it follows that Rhaegar agreed to return to KL only if the KG remained to guard his wife and unborn child.

Whent and Dayne were most likely with Rhaegar at the ToJ from the beginning as they seem to be absent from the rebellion. This makes sense as Dayne was his best friend and Whent helped organise the tourney at Harrenhal where Lyanna was crowned queen of love and beauty. Hightower too must have known where Rhaegar was. He was the one who left KL - we know he was there when Brandon and Lord Rickard were killed - to fetch Rhaegar at the ToJ before the Trident, which is odd when you think about it because it seems Aerys did not know where Rhaegar was. Did Hightower, the respected and honorable LC of the KG, withold this information from his king after Joncon's exile?

[Alia of the knife]

Jorahs POV I trust the least.

He dishonored his House as a slaver, and has proven he'll say whatever he thinks Dany wants to hear.

While Selmy might love honor more than anyone, or anything, he does try to tell Dany the truth, and seems objective.

It could be Selmy being a stickler for KG "policies" is the reason why Rhaegar kept him out of the loop.

[Davos' fingertip]

just suggesting, could you have like an introduction paragraph in the OP that explains this whole R + L = J Theory? Its really hard to follow this with over 30 threads. Similar to the introduction to the heresy threads.

[Neo]

Slightly off topic but fitting into the R + L = J theme, I have just been doing a re-read of the prologue chapter from ADwD and found an interesting snippet than could be another clue from GRRM about Jon's true identity, and also his immediate short-term fate following his stabbing at the hands of his Brothers.

In this passage, Varamyr Six-Skins is reminiscing about his old teacher Haggon and the lessons he had given him about waging and skinchanging. Varamyr then remembers the first time he met Jon Snow and immediately recognised him as a warg after seeing Ghost by his side. I found the highlighted line below from this passage to be an possible indication from GRRM that Jon is not only a 'King', but will also spend some time living within Ghost before he is 'reborn', possibly as Azor Ahai.

“They say you forget,” Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. “When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains.”

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell’s, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well. He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.

[rmholt]

Slightly off topic but fitting into the R + L = J theme, I have just been doing a re-read of the prologue chapter from ADwD and found an interesting snippet than could be another clue from GRRM about Jon's true identity, and also his immediate short-term fate following his stabbing at the hands of his Brothers.

In this passage, Varamyr Six-Skins is reminiscing about his old teacher Haggon and the lessons he had given him about waging and skinchanging. Varamyr then remembers the first time he met Jon Snow and immediately recognised him as a warg after seeing Ghost by his side. I found the highlighted line below from this passage to be an possible indication from GRRM that Jon is not only a 'King', but will also spend some time living within Ghost before he is 'reborn', possibly as Azor Ahai.

The second life to me seems to be the life in the animal, not another human life.

[Neo]

The second life to me seems to be the life in the animal, not another human life.

Yes, that is what I alluded to. Jon may live a second life in Ghost, before he is resurrected back into his human body. Fire consumes and ice preserves, so I can see his body being placed in the ice cells before Melisandre works out a way to bring him back. In the meantime, Jon's 'Ghost' haunts Castle Black.

[plurabel]

Yes, that is what I alluded to. Jon may live a second life in Ghost, before he is resurrected back into his human body. Fire consumes and ice preserves, so I can see his body being placed in the ice cells before Melisandre works out a way to bring him back. In the meantime, Jon's 'Ghost' haunts Castle Black.

Yes, while that is a theory and a valid one, in my opinion, in that passage Varamyr is alluding to the fact that he is in the process of choosing a creature to live a second life on. He's going to die and he wants to go while warging an animal so that some of him lives on. He's not alluding to Jon's second life but his own.

[Neo]

Yes, while that is a theory and a valid one, in my opinion, in that passage Varamyr is alluding to the fact that he is in the process of choosing a creature to live a second life on. He's going to die and he wants to go while warging an animal so that some of him lives on. He's not alluding to Jon's second life but his own.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I didn't mean that Varamyr was directly referring to Jon as a 'King'; as you rightly say, he was referring to his own second life. However, the use of the language makes me think that GRRM is giving us another clue as to Jon's parentage - he is a King, just as Mormont's raven calls him.

I also believe that it is another clue as to Jon's fate that he will spend time living within Ghost, I mean, look at the direwolf's name for crying out loud!

[Shaggy Rickon]

Yes, I'm aware of that. I didn't mean that Varamyr was directly referring to Jon as a 'King'; as you rightly say, he was referring to his own second life. However, the use of the language makes me think that GRRM is giving us another clue as to Jon's parentage - he is a King, just as Mormont's raven calls him.

I also believe that it is another clue as to Jon's fate that he will spend time living within Ghost, I mean, look at the direwolf's name for crying out loud!

Sorry mate. But your evidence is at best circumstantial. As far as living in ghost is concerned then that scenario is too fantasy genre for Martin. Atleast that is my opinion. Apart from dragons Martin hasn't delved whole heartedly into what I would consider dungeons and dragons fantasy. He has focused his story mostly on complex characters and their development. I can see Jon warging ghost as his body is in a comatose state following the stabbings. While in a warging state he develops his abilities further, maybe chat with bran etc. that scenario seems plausible. Far fetched but plausible. Never really agreed with the dying and resurrection plot line. Martin is not Lewis.

[Neo]

Sorry mate. But your evidence is at best circumstantial. As far as living in ghost is concerned then that scenario is too fantasy genre for Martin. Atleast that is my opinion. Apart from dragons Martin hasn't delved whole heartedly into what I would consider dungeons and dragons fantasy. He has focused his story mostly on complex characters and their development. I can see Jon warging ghost as his body is in a comatose state following the stabbings. While in a warging state he develops his abilities further, maybe chat with bran etc. that scenario seems plausible. Far fetched but plausible. Never really agreed with the dying and resurrection plot line. Martin is not Lewis.

So you don't think White Walkers, Wights, Children of the Forest, resurrected zombies and greenseers are delving wholeheartedly into fantasy?

By the way, I agree with the idea that Jon's body may be in a comatose state whilst his consciousness/soul/spirit lives within Ghost. The line from Varamyr's prologue gives me the impression that GRRM is giving us another clue to this, whilst also hinting to Jon's parentage through the use of the word 'King'.