R+L=J v.31

[rmholt]

Sorry mate. But your evidence is at best circumstantial. As far as living in ghost is concerned then that scenario is too fantasy genre for Martin. Atleast that is my opinion. Apart from dragons Martin hasn't delved whole heartedly into what I would consider dungeons and dragons fantasy. He has focused his story mostly on complex characters and their development. I can see Jon warging ghost as his body is in a comatose state following the stabbings. While in a warging state he develops his abilities further, maybe chat with bran etc. that scenario seems plausible. Far fetched but plausible. Never really agreed with the dying and resurrection plot line. Martin is not Lewis.

Besides using some kind of resurrection story to get Jon out of his NW vows is, IMHO, cheating!

[Serie]

re-re-reading ADWD I was sooooooo mind-blown by how Jon's wound was smoking in comparison to Drogon's smoking wound from the spear, back in the fighting pit. And yes, I know how we've said that it is only natural for blood to "smoke" taking into consideration the snow/low temperature but honestly if GRRM didn't use this particular word intentionally then we ought to double congratulate him...

another thing I've been thinking over all this time I've been inactive (and please excuse me if I lost valuable info in the meantime) was the KG presence issue at the ToJ (yes, I know how we're all tired of it, so feel free to skip this post if it bores you). There's this quote in ADWD where it states in the most clear way the KG role:

Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides.

it's from Barrister Selmy's POV, so I trust he knows best....

really???? Is there any way to believe that in case Rhaegar died (as he did) the KG would linger to protect his heir without this being a treason???(not that I'm not glad they did anyway....) and why on earth Aerys sent 3KG knights to guard his son, whom by the way he was suspecting of plotting to remove him from the throne??? I think it all adds up to author's latest interview, Arthur Dayne has a secret...

ok, sorry for bringing this up again anyway but everytime I re-read I'm left with even more open questions.... I don't really know what to do with myself... :dunno:

[Dragonfish]

I think it all adds up to author's latest interview, Arthur Dayne has a secret...

Ok, I'm really confused, because as I recall the only thing George said regarding Arthur Dayne was "keep reading." So why is everyone and their mother suddenly reading into this a confirmation of a vast conspiracy involving Arthur Dayne?

[Serie]

Ok, I'm really confused, because as I recall the only thing George said regarding Arthur Dayne was "keep reading." So why is everyone and their mother suddenly reading into this a confirmation of a vast conspiracy involving Arthur Dayne?

well I certainly can't talk about the others but "keep reading" sounds to me as "a lot of stuff regarding the notorious Ser Dayne are going be explained later". And I'm not talking about a vast conspiracy either, just some special bonding between Dayne and the prince. After all he WAS the KG member Rhaegar trusted the most.

[Dragonfish]

well I certainly can't talk about the others but "keep reading" sounds to me as "a lot of stuff regarding the notorious Ser Dayne are going be explained later".

Yes, I agree that's what it means, but a lot of people seem to reading into it their own pet theories regarding Arthur Dayne (not saying this about you specifically, this is just something I've seen a lot since the interview came out). "Keep reading" just means we'll find out more about him later; it's not a confirmation of any given theory.

And I'm not talking about a vast conspiracy either, just some special bonding between Dayne and the prince. After all he WAS the KG member Rhaegar trusted the most.

Right, well, I've seen other people talk about the interview as if it confirmed that Arthur Dayne was involved in a conspiracy to replace Aerys with Rhaegar. Your post just reminded me of that.

[Serie]

@Dragonfish: fair enough! I guess its the forum activity lost while I've been away ;)

[Budj]

The "keep reading" in regard to Dayne opens a can of worms, imo. Neither confirms nor denies crack pot theories, but certainly tells us there is more to his story than what we have been given so far.

[rmholt]

The "keep reading" in regard to Dayne opens a can of worms, imo. Neither confirms nor denies crack pot theories, but certainly tells us there is more to his story than what we have been given so far.

Or not.

[Daemon Dagoghlor]

Even if Jon is a bastard it doesn't matter. A king can legitimize his bastard children and make them apart of his household. Once Rhaegar became king he could have placed Jon in the line of secession behind Aegon. This would have explained the kingsguard being present.

Also, Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend. So putting all vows aside it's possible that Rhaegar simply asked his friend to guard his paramour and child.

I don't recall it saying that they tore down the tower of joy, only that they used stones from it to make cairns for the dead.

[Dragonfish]

Even if Jon is a bastard it doesn't matter. A king can legitimize his bastard children and make them apart of his household. Once Rhaegar became king he could have placed Jon in the line of secession behind Aegon. This would have explained the kingsguard being present.

Rhaegar died before he ever became king.

Also, Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend. So putting all vows aside it's possible that Rhaegar simply asked his friend to guard his paramour and child.

No, the Kingsguard specifically state they are upholding their vows by staying there.

I don't recall it saying that they tore down the tower of joy, only that they used stones from it to make cairns for the dead.

Ned recalls tearing the whole thing down, IIRC.

[Alia of the knife]

IMHO, one of the most important things about writing is balance.

No matter what the genre is, or the theme, at the end it has to balance.

Hopefully, if Martin has a concern for his legacy as a serious writer, he will keep it simple and "less is best." A few well placed mysteries, one, or two magical families, and perhap through the course of the story, we can have three misplaced babies, with one beyond the Wall as a reference point for Jon when he finds out who he is, and why Ned did what he did, are all enough to keep everyone on their toes and guessing.

If Dayne is one more mystery, or yet another nebulous character with a dark side, rather than the one of the few constants in the story, it starts to be too much, (remember, Arthur Dayne is the reason Darkstar cuts himself).

My read on the Dornish is that at their heart as a cuture, they are pragamatic and realistic in everything they do, from their moral dilemmas and how to handle them, which is openly, who should rule their land, and it's the firstborn whether male, or female, to how they defend their own "kingdom," which is whatever gives them the advantage.

While they are known for their open Paramours, I think they are just as capable of having loving, faithful marriages.

To me, "keep reading" may just mean that there will be a good explaination for why Dayne broke KG "policy" and played the GOT.

If I did speculate, I think it's just as simple as him being Dornish.

Elias Uncle took a lover, because he most likely didn't see a conflict between his ability to do "his job" and have a lover, thinking the rule unnatural.

Dayne may have taken a similar pragmatic view that since Aerys was insane, there was no reason to keep following his orders, and that obeying such a man doing such horrific things, was unnatural.

Dayne as a Dornishman did "think outside the box" and think independently, not following to the letter the KG handbook when a saner Rhaegar could take over.

The whole KG position with it's strict rules, while honorable, may have seemed strange to people outside Westeros, i.e, Dorne, and probably even the North, whereas to someone like Selmy who is a "Company" man, breaking those rules would be unheard of.

[rmholt]

Spare me from writers who want a "legacy" I prefer writers who have a good story to tell and the ability to tell it.

And the sense to write not what they "should" write.

[rmholt]

Question about the tourney of the False Spring at Harrenhal: Where were Rhaenys and Aegon? Elia was at Harrenhal as was Rhaegar so I am presuming they were there but is there any confirmation?

Jaime was sent to KL to guard the queen and the prince Viserys. No mention of the grandkids.

[Jem]

Question about the tourney of the False Spring at Harrenhal: Where were Rhaenys and Aegon? Elia was at Harrenhal as was Rhaegar so I am presuming they were there but is there any confirmation?

Jaime was sent to KL to guard the queen and the prince Viserys. No mention of the grandkids.

Well Aegon wasn't born yet, but as for Rhaenys, I would guess that she was left home with granny.

[Dr. Pepper]

Question about the tourney of the False Spring at Harrenhal: Where were Rhaenys and Aegon? Elia was at Harrenhal as was Rhaegar so I am presuming they were there but is there any confirmation?

Jaime was sent to KL to guard the queen and the prince Viserys. No mention of the grandkids.

As Jem said, Aegon wasn't born yet so he was either an incubating embryo in his mamma's belly or still just a twinkle in his daddy's eye. As for Rhaenys, she could have been left behind in King's Landing or she could have been at Harrenhal. I'm not any sort of expert about medieval baby history, but I have a feeling that it's probably not like today's Western cultures where they parade babies around in the most ridiculous of places (unless of course that baby is the head of a house, like Ermesande). If she was at Harrenhal, she was probably in a tent with the wet nurse.

What does this have to do with anything?

[three-eyed monkey]

Well, it might mean Rhaegar 'chose' Lyanna before he knew Elia could bear him no more kids.

[Thendel]

Well, it might mean Rhaegar 'chose' Lyanna before he knew Elia could bear him no more kids.

My read on Harrenhall is that Rhaegar demasked Lyanna and became infatuated with her, and in a moment of political incorrectness, he gave her a sign of affection in front of the entire kingdom. It's possible that he might have chosen her then and there to bear "the third head", but it's just as possible he was planning on fathering all of the three heads on Elia at the time. When he later learned that that would not be possible, he turned to the girl he had fallen in love with.

[Cold-King]

if R+L=J is the route GRRM decides to take, and somehow jon comes face to face with catelyn somehow, do u think her feelings would change towards Jon??

[Serie]

if R+L=J is the route GRRM decides to take, and somehow jon comes face to face with catelyn somehow, do u think her feelings would change towards Jon??

I may regret for saying this but I think she's way too bitter and unable to understand in her present state. Actually she's not Catelyn, she's a zombified, with no human feelings or logic, version of her who only seeks for revenge and nothing else. If that ever happens I'm afraid not only she won't understand but will be twice as pissed off.

Buuuuuuuut on the other hand, it would be a good ending if she realized somehow the irony that mastered over her entire life and decided to put an end to her...."life" herself.

[Zupoleon]

My guess is she'll never have the chance to come face to face with Jon. This will make her feel even more guilty since she won't have a chance to make ammends, and that is why she ends her (2nd) life...