R+L=J v.31

[sagaz]

I've never thought about Brandon before this conversation, but to stay on topic here, I've searched the forums and found this interesting thread discussing Brandon's personality http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/64812-brandon-stark-wasnt-so-bad/

[NymStark]

I know that there's a story Lyanna wrote a letter and it probably got waylaid by Littlefinger. How about if we take it one step further, Littlefinger probably penned a letter to Brandon in Lyanna's name saying she was kidnapped and being raped by Rhaegar. Littlefinger personally knows how hot-headed Brandon is and probably got his revenge. If you look at it, it could be the same tactic used to draw Jon out in ADWD. This of course does not excuse how stupid Brandon was but that's another story.

[Lady Octarina]

I know that there's a story Lyanna wrote a letter and it probably got waylaid by Littlefinger. How about if we take it one step further, Littlefinger probably penned a letter to Brandon in Lyanna's name saying she was kidnapped and being raped by Rhaegar. Littlefinger personally knows how hot-headed Brandon is and probably got his revenge. If you look at it, it could be the same tactic used to draw Jon out in ADWD. This of course does not excuse how stupid Brandon was but that's another story.

I really doubt Littlefinger was even 5% the cunning bastard we know back then, not to mention he had been sent back to the Fingers at that point, so it's unlikely news would have gotten to him on time to plan all this. But I have read the suggestion that Varys would have written such a letter to Brandon. Personally, I don't think any letter would have been necessary for him to go to KL and get himself killed; just the knowledge that she disappeared with Rhaegar (or that she disappeared, and the possibility he knew Rhaegar's interest in her didn't die at Harrenhall, and then connected the dots) would have been enough. I also think it would have been too soon for Varys to ruin the Targaryen dynasty if he had planned on crowning a Blackfyre all along. On the other hand, it would make sense that he acted if he knew what Rhaegar's plans were to solidify Targ rule (and evidence suggests he did know), and saw in this an opportunity to at least weaken the Targs and discredit Rhaegar before the realm.

[King Doug]

I really doubt Littlefinger was even 5% the cunning bastard we know back then, not to mention he had been sent back to the Fingers at that point, so it's unlikely news would have gotten to him on time to plan all this. But I have read the suggestion that Varys would have written such a letter to Brandon. Personally, I don't think any letter would have been necessary for him to go to KL and get himself killed; just the knowledge that she disappeared with Rhaegar (or that she disappeared, and the possibility he knew Rhaegar's interest in her didn't die at Harrenhall, and then connected the dots) would have been enough. I also think it would have been too soon for Varys to ruin the Targaryen dynasty if he had planned on crowning a Blackfyre all along. On the other hand, it would make sense that he acted if he knew what Rhaegar's plans were to solidify Targ rule (and evidence suggests he did know), and saw in this an opportunity to at least weaken the Targs and discredit Rhaegar before the realm.

On top of all that, wasn't Littlefinger still injured from his duel with Brandon?

[corbon]

Maybe I'm not cynical enough, but I read that line to mean that like a good older brother, he was helping Ned out. I thought it was kinda cute and sweet of Brandon to see that his shy younger brother had a crush, but was too scared to do anything about it. I didn't see him as being a jerk about it at all. I guess it's all in the interpretation, though. We don't have much info to work with here.

The key phrase there, is "I read that line to mean".

The truth is we know very little, and we imply a lot from very few lines that don't actually say much. And that we've been cleverly influenced by other rumours, which most likely are totally unrelated to Harrenhal, but all the more effective on us because of the two stories maybe seeming to link.

What do we know?

Ned was shy.

Brandon asked Ashara to dance with him.

Ashara danced with Ned, and others.

Ashara was 'dishonoured' at Harrenhal and looked to a Stark. Later she was dismissed from court due to being pregnant.

2-3 years later, after the war, ToJ and Ned 'appearing out of Starfall with a bastard while the young noblewoman there, with a history of disgrace due to illegitimate pregnancy, rumours exist widely that Ned and Ashara were in love and/or Ashara was Ned's bastard's mother.

What do we think?

Ned probably had a crush on Ashara. But even that isn't known, and that's probably as afar as it went. Everything else is much better explained in other ways.

There isn't any reason to assume Brandon is being a jerk fooling around with Ashara, even if Ned does have a crush on her. Brandon may have 'had the prior claim'. Ahsara may have rejected Ned, or just chosen Brandon. Ashara might have already been 'with' Brandon by the time Ned saw her, and it was a pity/confidence boosting dance (Brandon being nice to little brother). Or maybe even Ned didn't actually have a crush on her at all, but was simply shy generally.

We simply don't know. If you look at it objectively, everything we know points toward Brandon being a more likely choice from her perspective (and their personailities). Its really only the later rumours, which are explained by Ned publically coming from Starfall with a bastard, not older private history between them, which point to Ned and Ashara being an item, and its clear that a) the rumours are a good cover for Jon's birth and B) nobody stating the rumours actually has any direct connection with the events (Ned Dayne wasn;t born at the time, so can only be repeating what he has heard from others).

I look at the "wolf pups" kinda like Ned's own children, a generation later. They may have their slight faults: Brandon was a "hothead," Ned was shy, Lyanna had a wild streak, just as Sansa can be overly sentimental/shallow (esp. before Ned's death), Arya can be disrespectful and defiant, etc. But, overall they love each other very much and are a close-knit family, until outside forces pull them apart. I just can't wrap my head around Brandon being an arrogant, selfish, angry man with no regard for his brother's feelings.

Thats a strange thing to say. He's demonstrably arrogant, angry and selfish with no regard for anyone else when he rides up to the Red Keep. Lady Dustin's memories of him paint a similar picture - a man who 'takes what he wants', 'likes a bloody sword' and will happily deflower a noble virgin.

He's also been brought up as the heir - as Ned recalls, everything was always for Brandon. Arrogance and selfishness are just a natural fit for that (though rare people can rise above it, so to speak).

But there is no need for him to 'have no regard for his brother's feelings' to have been with Ashara anyway. As above, we don't know what Ned's feelings were, or much more about the circumstances.

[Thendel]

^Agreed.

I definitely believe that people overrate Ned's and Ashara's feelings for each other. Ashara is never, ever mentioned in Ned's PoV, and he's a pretty sentimental man. In contrast, Catelyn clearly remembers that she used to love Brandon, and there's no doubt that she loved Ned deeply.

Brandon asking Ashara to dance with Ned could well just be an older brother helping him get out unto the dance floor and have himself a good time that night, with the big party and all. Ashara was compliant to Brandon's request, so that's the girl Ned started with.

[The Great Cornholio!]

The key phrase there, is "I read that line to mean".

The truth is we know very little, and we imply a lot from very few lines that don't actually say much. And that we've been cleverly influenced by other rumours, which most likely are totally unrelated to Harrenhal, but all the more effective on us because of the two stories maybe seeming to link.

What do we know?

Ned was shy.

Brandon asked Ashara to dance with him.

Ashara danced with Ned, and others.

Ashara was 'dishonoured' at Harrenhal and looked to a Stark. Later she was dismissed from court due to being pregnant.

2-3 years later, after the war, ToJ and Ned 'appearing out of Starfall with a bastard while the young noblewoman there, with a history of disgrace due to illegitimate pregnancy, rumours exist widely that Ned and Ashara were in love and/or Ashara was Ned's bastard's mother.

What do we think?

Ned probably had a crush on Ashara. But even that isn't known, and that's probably as afar as it went. Everything else is much better explained in other ways.

There isn't any reason to assume Brandon is being a jerk fooling around with Ashara, even if Ned does have a crush on her. Brandon may have 'had the prior claim'. Ahsara may have rejected Ned, or just chosen Brandon. Ashara might have already been 'with' Brandon by the time Ned saw her, and it was a pity/confidence boosting dance (Brandon being nice to little brother). Or maybe even Ned didn't actually have a crush on her at all, but was simply shy generally.

We simply don't know. If you look at it objectively, everything we know points toward Brandon being a more likely choice from her perspective (and their personailities). Its really only the later rumours, which are explained by Ned publically coming from Starfall with a bastard, not older private history between them, which point to Ned and Ashara being an item, and its clear that a) the rumours are a good cover for Jon's birth and B) nobody stating the rumours actually has any direct connection with the events (Ned Dayne wasn;t born at the time, so can only be repeating what he has heard from others).

Thats a strange thing to say. He's demonstrably arrogant, angry and selfish with no regard for anyone else when he rides up to the Red Keep. Lady Dustin's memories of him paint a similar picture - a man who 'takes what he wants', 'likes a bloody sword' and will happily deflower a noble virgin.

He's also been brought up as the heir - as Ned recalls, everything was always for Brandon. Arrogance and selfishness are just a natural fit for that (though rare people can rise above it, so to speak).

But there is no need for him to 'have no regard for his brother's feelings' to have been with Ashara anyway. As above, we don't know what Ned's feelings were, or much more about the circumstances.

So...Young Griff is a Stark (Ned/Brandon) and Ashara love child? Or do we believe the story about the miscarriage?

[Lady Octarina]

So...Young Griff is a Stark (Ned/Brandon) and Ashara love child? Or do we believe the story about the miscarriage?

:shocked:

well, we're suggesting Gerold Dayne, the Darkstar, is Ashara+a Stark's son, not YG. YG is a secret Blackfyre, just like Jon Snow is the secret Targaryen heir. How can you get lost with this? *sarcasm*

Seriously, though, when you put the three theories together like this you realize how absurd this all sounds. It might be possible we're confusing GRRM with Moffat :rofl:

[Azor Azai]

Not sure if this has been brought up before, and I'm not reading every damn R+L=J thread, but has anyone considered Lady Dustin as a candidate as J's mother? By none other than Mr. Brandon "Bloody Sword" Stark? She seems rather bitter about the Starks, and reveals her tryst(s?) with Brandon. Does need swing by there on his way back, and pick up infant/toddler J on his way back to Winterfell? We know he stopped there, Lady Dustin is pissed because her husbands bones are not returned but Ned has Lyanna's with him. Is that enough of a reason? Was she all that attached to a Lord that she had, IIRC, just married before he answered the call for levies?

[Sapphire]

Azor Azai, I think Brandon had been dead for months when Jon was conceived. He is 8-9 months older than Dany, putting his birth around the sack of KL. So his parents conceived 3-4 months into the war.

[Azor Azai]

Sapphire, how do we know when Jon was conceived? Though thinking about it more, I'm probably wrong, Arya speaks with Jon's "milk brother" Edric Dayne somewhere considerably south of Lady Dustin.

[Lady Octarina]

Sapphire, how do we know when Jon was conceived? Though thinking about it more, I'm probably wrong, Arya speaks with Jon's "milk brother" Edric Dayne somewhere considerably south of Lady Dustin.

GRRM has confirmed Jon was born around the Sack of King's Landing. We know the war lasted a year, and it only began after Brandon and Rickard's deaths. So, Sapphire is right to say he was conceived 3-4 months into the war. Not to mention Lady Dustin's comments suggest whatever there was between her and Brandon happened months before he was supposed to marry Catelyn.

Also, I'd like to ask you: if Jon was Brandon's son with Lady Dustin, why would Ned have claimed him as his own, why all the secrecy?

[Sapphire]

We don't know the exact date Jon was conceived, but we know the sack took place a year into the rebellion and Jon was born up to month from it. He had to be conceived months into the war. Ned Dayne was born at Starfall, located close to the Tower of Joy and thousands of miles away from the North.

I always thought it was fishy that Wylla would claim to be Jon's mother. Me thinks she had a slip of the tongue and mentioned Jon to Edric and had to claim him as a son to stop people from getting suspicious and wondering what the heck Eddard was doing with a baby he didn't have at Storm's End and acquired after retrieving Lyanna. Everyone is anxious to get Howland's insight into what happened, but I think Wylla knows too.

[corbon]

So...Young Griff is a Stark (Ned/Brandon) and Ashara love child? Or do we believe the story about the miscarriage?

We don't have a good reason to doubt it. Or one to believe it either.

But very little chance YG is Ashara's kid. He's a bit young, but just as importantly, he is definitely a product of Varys, which means the only realistic options are he's for real, he's actually the original double from the slums, or he's a Blackfyre plant. EIther way, Lemore (probably Ashara believes he's real.

:shocked:

well, we're suggesting Gerold Dayne, the Darkstar, is Ashara+a Stark's son, not YG. YG is a secret Blackfyre, just like Jon Snow is the secret Targaryen heir. How can you get lost with this? *sarcasm*

Seriously, though, when you put the three theories together like this you realize how absurd this all sounds. It might be possible we're confusing GRRM with Moffat :rofl:

For me, its all one connected theory.

Ashara and Brandon's babe died and their little sub-plot isn't really related or important.

Varys sent Aegon/Faegon south.

Ashara faked a suicide to go look after him as Lemore.

Ned took R+L=J home claiming him as his own, taking with him Wylla-the-wetnurse (who was originally at ToJ).

Robert hears about Wylla, and projects what he would have done, and Ned having to much honour to sleep around with a noblewoman, so thinks Wylla is Jon's mother.

Various people (including Catelyn, who can tell Wylla's not) think Ashara is the mother due to Ned+bastard-from-Starfall+young noblewoman-suicides= Ashara is the mother.

The Daynes (or their servants/staff) think that a broken hearted suicide for a lost love and a lost child are a better sounding story for Ashara than an unexplained suicide.

Wylla never actually claims Jon as her own, and Catelyn gets rid of her from Winterfell ASAP, whereupon she returns to Starfall. Later she also wetnurses for Ned Dayne, making him and Jon milk-brothers. She, or more likely other servants, tells Ned Dayne that Ashara is Jon's mother - servants gossip, and only sometimes do they actually know what the truth is.

Gerold Dayne is just a minor cadet Dayne of no real importance. He's dangerous because he has nothing to lose, the ear of Doran's heir Arianne and the Dayne name.

There are lots of other possibilities that can't be ruled out for most of this though.

[rmholt]

Ned Dayne is 4 years younger than Jon

[Azor Azai]

GRRM has confirmed Jon was born around the Sack of King's Landing. We know the war lasted a year, and it only began after Brandon and Rickard's deaths. So, Sapphire is right to say he was conceived 3-4 months into the war. Not to mention Lady Dustin's comments suggest whatever there was between her and Brandon happened months before he was supposed to marry Catelyn.

Also, I'd like to ask you: if Jon was Brandon's son with Lady Dustin, why would Ned have claimed him as his own, why all the secrecy?

To protect Lady Dustin's rep would be my guess, but again, as I stated in my second post, I am probably wrong, which you have been so good to point that out again. Thank you very much for your valuable info.

Though I do have a feeling that LadyDustin and Brandon was a more than one time thing.

What if he stopped to "hit it" on his way to KL with Rickard? And being born "around the sack of KL" is pretty wide open to interpretation.

[Ygrain]

To protect Lady Dustin's rep would be my guess, but again, as I stated in my second post, I am probably wrong, which you have been so good to point that out again. Thank you very much for your valuable info.

Though I do have a feeling that LadyDustin and Brandon was a more than one time thing.

What if he stopped to "hit it" on his way to KL with Rickard? And being born "around the sack of KL" is pretty wide open to interpretation.

I don't see Lady Dustin's besmirched honour as a "secret best not shared, even with those you love".

And, sorry, but being born "around a particular date" gives you roughly a time period of weeks, +/- a month at best, or it wouldn't make sense to relate it to this particular event - for an earlier case, the battle of Trident would be the logical date of importance, and for a later one, possibly lifting the siege of Storm's End.

[Alia of the knife]

:shocked:

well, we're suggesting Gerold Dayne, the Darkstar, is Ashara+a Stark's son, not YG. YG is a secret Blackfyre, just like Jon Snow is the secret Targaryen heir. How can you get lost with this? *sarcasm*

Seriously, though, when you put the three theories together like this you realize how absurd this all sounds. It might be possible we're confusing GRRM with Moffat :rofl:

ONLY if he leaves it to that three.

Theres also the theory that Jaimie/Cersei, or Tyrion are secret Targs. too. :bang:

He may throw those elements into the story given the generation Martin grew up in when those types of storys and mysteries were so popular for kids, but I think the trick is balance, and stopping it at the possible children in question before the war, (i.e., "Aegon," Jon and a potential still-living child of Asharas).

On DS:

As much as DS is the current literary irritant, going back to Authors intent, he is placed in the story for a reason, and he does have the peculiar coloring that is symbolically representative of at least four families, Targ./Dayne, Stark, and Berantheon.

Especially silver hair with a black streak?

That streak belongs to somebody, unless it's a bad root job.

So, the B+A=D will remain my own personal, pet theory. :laugh:

[King Doug]

ONLY if he leaves it to that three.

Theres also the theory that Jaimie/Cersei, or Tyrion are secret Targs. too. :bang:

He may throw those elements into the story given the generation Martin grew up in when those types of storys and mysteries were so popular for kids, but I think the trick is balance, and stopping it at the possible children in question before the war, (i.e., "Aegon," Jon and a potential still-living child of Asharas).

On DS:

As much as DS is the current literary irritant, going back to Authors intent, he is placed in the story for a reason, and he does have the peculiar coloring that is symbolically representative of at least four families, Targ./Dayne, Stark, and Berantheon.

Especially silver hair with a black streak?

That streak belongs to somebody, unless it's a bad root job.

So, the B+A=D will remain my own personal, pet theory. :laugh:

That streak belongs to somebody...HAHAHA. I don't know why but that really made me chuckle

[Alia of the knife]

As many have stated, I think that the relationship between Ned and Ashara might be overblown.

And I do think that something went down between Brandon and Ashara, and that was the common denominator between Ned and Ashara.

Men and women didn't enjoy intimate friendships in those days like we do today, and wouldn't have had such discussions, so if she turned to Ned, it means she turned to him because of his ability to influence whatever happened to Ashara.

He is a second son, and younger, so it's unlikely he's going to influence any other powerful man unless it's someone close to him, and thats either Brandon, or Robert.

In the end, I do think they developed a high regard, and admiration for one another- enough for her to help him with Lyanna and Jon.

If her child did indeed die, or she had to give it up to a cousin, and allow rumours to germinate that something was going on between her and Ned, and Jon was possibly hers, then it was best for her to disappear.

Having the opportunity to help raise a boy she believes to be Elias son also gives her a purpose as well as go on with her life.