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R+L=J v.31


Stubby

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Then we differ on this because I don't think it's that clear. If Dayne faked his death then I'd expect a cairn to be built for him and Dawn to be returned to Starfall. Anything else would raise suspicion. I'm just saying Ned makes not a single mention of Dayne's death, by his hand or Howland Reed's. And while I see it could be two of the ten, it might be interpreted as two of the seven imo. There is a lot in the ToJ scenes that lead us to believe Dayne is dead, but nothing that confirms it as far as I can see.

Edit: They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away

For example, if I read: "They were 300 spartans against 100,000 persians yet only one lived to ride away," I could take it to mean that only one of the spartans lived or only one of the 100,300 survived the battle.

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He said ten people fought, there were eight graves and two rode away. You can claim the grave was fake (with zero evidence of this) but you can't say that doesn't point to him being dead.

There's also this:

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. “No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”

“Was there one who was best of all?”

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more.

Ned had a great deal of respect and admiration for the Kingsguard and for Dayne, and is sad over his role in killing them, at the cost of five of his friends.

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Then we differ on this because I don't think it's that clear. If Dayne faked his death then I'd expect a cairn to be built for him

See, I think it's the opposite. Building a cairn for Arthur Dayne is just asking for people to come find his grave to make sure he is still dead. If he wanted to fake his death and go into hiding, it would've been better for Ned to tell people he buried him in an unmarked grave.

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"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." - GOT

While the possibility that HR appealed to Arthur rather than helping Ned defeat him, it raises a question for me (well a lot, actually, but here's just one, heheheh) -

Do Howland and Arthur have any history before the ToJ? For Howland's appeal to have any weight, Arthur would have to know Howland as a stand up guy, someone whose opinion was to be respected. Otherwise, it's "who are you to question my honor?!" Hard to picture a stranger convincing Arthur to commit Hari Kari...

Until we get a couple more pieces of the puzzle though we still have to consider both possibilities (Arthur falling on his sword, or fighting to his death). It's just that with the info we have at this point, more signs point to him defending his new King to the bitter end. (Which is actually the honorable thing to do for a knight of the Kingsguard in this situation....)

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See, I think it's the opposite. Building a cairn for Arthur Dayne is just asking for people to come find his grave to make sure he is still dead. If he wanted to fake his death and go into hiding, it would've been better for Ned to tell people he buried him in an unmarked grave.

I don't know. Of course people might come and disturb the stones, or whatever is involved, just to check that all eight bodies were really there, but if there were only seven cairns then I think it would certainly raise a few questions. But I guess my original point was Ned building a cairn doesn't confirm Dayne's death. I can't think of any one thing that confirms Dayne's death, not in a solid way like how Lyanna's for example is confirmed by Ned remembering holding her dead body. Perhaps I'm being overly suspicous.

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@three eyed monkey

I don't think you're overly suspicious. You're right, nothing is definitive about Dayne's death.

Ned says Dayne would have killed him save for howland

"They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away" I read it in the same way, perfectly fit 2 people of 7... the other three could be dead, or not.

and don't forget that "they" found Ned with Lyanna as in "They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief."

I bet they are Reed and Dayne.

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I would again just go back to the simplest explaination, and say that perhaps Dayne was persuaded the best protection for his King was that he go with Ned.

Jon is better served, given his appearance, to hide out "in the open."

Fine, except it is not even near the simplest explanation.

The simplest explanation is that Dayne nearly killed Ned during the melee, but HR deflected the blow, or distracted Dayne when Ned was down or something basic like that.

HR wasn't good with a lance, or a horse (a couple of years ago that is), or very large, but thats no reason for him to be incapable of contributing in a fight. And contrary to TV and movies, 2 on 1 (or 7 on 3) is a very dicey prospect when the 2 or 7 are well trained and experienced warriors, no matter how good the 1 or 3 are.

There is absolutely no reason at all to 'doubt' this simple explanation and try other inventive ones. Which is not, of course, to say that the other inventive ones couldn't have happened. But that complication isn't necessary. We arleady have very simple answer that perfectly fits everything else.

@three eyed monkey

I don't think you're overly suspicious. You're right, nothing is definitive about Dayne's death.

Ned says Dayne would have killed him save for howland

"They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away" I read it in the same way, perfectly fit 2 people of 7... the other three could be dead, or not.

and don't forget that "they" found Ned with Lyanna as in "They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief."

I bet they are Reed and Dayne.

The 'context' of 7 vs 3 but only two rode away is 8 graves. So its definitely 2 of the 10, not 2 of the 7.

The 'they' is almost certainly Wylla and HR and maybe a small number of other menial staff - Lyanna would have needed a midwife/wetnurse/maester and someone to cook and clean for her and the 3 KG.

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@three eyed monkey

I don't think you're overly suspicious. You're right, nothing is definitive about Dayne's death.

Ned says Dayne would have killed him save for howland

"They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away" I read it in the same way, perfectly fit 2 people of 7... the other three could be dead, or not.

and don't forget that "they" found Ned with Lyanna as in "They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief."

I bet they are Reed and Dayne.

Could be, but the "they" could also refer to Howland and Wylla. Chances are Lyanna had a midwife there...

If Arthur is alive, where's he been this whole time? I haven't looked into the theories, but can someone list the most popular or two?

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There was no melee. The books state specifically say that it was single combat between Ned and Dayne, so I presume HR did something to help Ned win. Ned and HR were the only survivors. I am not sure anything is plainer than this in the entire set of books.

HR has been noted to have some surreal skills that might have helped with the battle without him actually fighting.

I suspect Ned had a contingent with him, tho they did not participate in the battle with the KG - they would have accompanied him to Storms End after helping him tear down the T o J. Not unprecedented - Robert and Rhaegar did single combat amidst armies as did Barristan and Maelys in the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

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Where does it say it was single combat between Dayne and Ned? In his dream they all come together and fight . And Ned went to Storm's End before the ToJ.

I'll try to find it - it sticks out in my mind bc of the HR angle. I dont think it was in that particular dream. Ned went to Storms End AFTER T o J to remove Tyrell and Redwyne IIRC - without a battle. I'll see if I can find that too.

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From the ToJ dream:

“I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

And later:

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called.
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I'll try to find it - it sticks out in my mind bc of the HR angle. I dont think it was in that particular dream. Ned went to Storms End AFTER T o J to remove Tyrell and Redwyne IIRC - without a battle. I'll see if I can find that too.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne. - GOT, chapter 39, Ned

Sorry, according to this, he already went to Storm's End...

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Where does it say it was single combat between Dayne and Ned? In his dream they all come together and fight . And Ned went to Storm's End before the ToJ.

I'm quite sure rmholt has just remembered wrongly. There is no suggestion it was one on one.

Heck, Ned and Ser Rodrik Cassel together got their arses kicked by Bronze Yohn Royce. Arther Dayne would have made mincemeat of him one-on-one.

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Okay, then here are the other possibilities:

- Ned is a better warrior than he's given credit for, and nobody is giving him credit.

- Howland Reed is a Mage, and if he is a Mage, he should have been the KoTL since he could have won that tourney through the same trickery that defeated Dayne, not putting the Starks through all that.

- Ned is kind of a good warrior, but it took Reeds trickery/cheating to defeat Dayne which makes Ned not really so honorable, or competent.

- Dayne, maybe not 110% honorable, but he captivated a young Ned from the North who didn't have such traditions as the KG, but who did have the NW which fell into the same corruption as the KG gives way to the ironic parallels. Ned who was fostered in the South and was influenced by Southron ways, who thought Robert was also fabulous, still wanting him to marry his Sister.

So Ned is remembering Dayne 110% correctly if Dayne is not 110% honorable, therefore Daynes dishonor in standing around watching barbecues and not doing anything to stop them cannot possibly be a reality, thus Reeds hectoring him about the lessons of the KotLT couldn't POSSIBLY affect the only thing AD had going for him- honor.

- AD fell on his sword to preserve the only thing going for him- honor, as well as giving Jon the only real chance at survival and the Iron Throne than anything three KG with a baby could have done.

Edit: If this sounds like a tangent, it is. (It's also said tongue-in-cheek).

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Where does it say it was single combat between Dayne and Ned? In his dream they all come together and fight . And Ned went to Storm's End before the ToJ.

I see in his dream Ned says he went to Storms End first. In the second book there is a reference to Ned going to Storms End with his host to lift the siege. I just assume he also had a host with him at T of J and that is who helped him pull down the tower and who found him with Lyanna. I havent found the passage that led me to think Ned went south after T o J - still looking.

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I'm quite sure rmholt has just remembered wrongly. There is no suggestion it was one on one.

Heck, Ned and Ser Rodrik Cassel together got their arses kicked by Bronze Yohn Royce. Arther Dayne would have made mincemeat of him one-on-one.

Still looking but quite sure it was single combat. It was almost a throwaway line. HR HELPED - not by fighting.

References to the T o J exist beyond the Ned dream and not just in the first book - some in Catelyn POV and perhaps others.

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Is this what you were refering to?

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

Because then it's a just rumour being told about the fight, not a confirmation by Ned. His soldiers probably don't know all the details other than some of Ned's men and all the Kingsguard was killed, and are telling the most dramatic interpretation of the fight.

As for Ned's host, we aren't told anything specific. However the theory I believe in is that after Storm's Ending Ned went looking around the south for Lyanna. He found out (maybe from Ashara) that she was at the ToJ, and that she was pregnant with Rhaegar's child. He therefore only went there with 6 trusted companions instead of an army to keep it a secret. The "pulling down" the tower may just be an exaggeration, or he brought in more men after.

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Well, my search for references still not finished but I have a new idea about why the KG did not go with Viserys the presumptive heir. Barristan tells Dany that even as a child he seemed too nuts to be king, like his dad. Barristan is not a plotter but the KG may have made an executive decision that Viserys wasnt going to be succeeding Rhaegar no matter what happened. Jaime was at KL presumably protecting Rhaegar's children and on the off chance that they could make something out of Lyanna's child, they took their chances at T o J

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Is this what you were refering to?

Because then it's a just rumour being told about the fight, not a confirmation by Ned. His soldiers probably don't know all the details other than some of Ned's men and all the Kingsguard was killed, and are telling the most dramatic interpretation of the fight.

As for Ned's host, we aren't told anything specific. However the theory I believe in is that after Storm's Ending Ned went looking around the south for Lyanna. He found out (maybe from Ashara) that she was at the ToJ, and that she was pregnant with Rhaegar's child. He therefore only went there with 6 trusted companions instead of an army to keep it a secret. The "pulling down" the tower may just be an exaggeration, or he brought in more men after.

Well it would be unprecedented for a guy at war to go off without any escort at all. even Littlefinger had a few hundred men. He had a host at Storms End and things happened at T o J that one or two men couldnt do - who is the "they" that found him with Lyanna - did HR have a mouse in his pocket? And why would he send the host away - seems like a dumb idea. I'd like to hear a reason he DIDNT have a host with him. Already addressed the single combat thing, or even the 3 on 7 thing. That does not require the absence of other fighters as seen in the Trident and the last battle of the War of he Ninepenny Kings. Even The Smiling Knight was not alone when he and Arthur Dayne squared off. So there are 3 examples of single combat between the big cheeses while lesser fighters dealt with one another.

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