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R+L=J v.31


Stubby

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^ Yeah, I got to agree with you. There is a very good chance Wylla was present. But that's it imo, I don't see the need for anyone other than a midwife.

Me either actually. Only a midwife and probably a wetnurse are actually likely to be required, and Wylla could possibly fulfill both those roles.

I'm just not ruling out a very small select handful of others.

It wouldn't be hard for Arthur Dayne to find a couple of totally loyal family retainers, like say a (younger) Dayne version of Old Nan for example or a Beth Cassel, or Bandy/Shyra.

Otherwise, whose doing the cooking, cleaning, washing the smallclothes, and bed linens, grooming the horses etc?

Sure, the 3 KG could do some of that, and probably did. But all of it? While looking after a heavily pregnant Lyanna (who might also be capable of 'camping out' rough, but not for months and months while heavily pregnant)? I don't see any issues at all with there being 1-2 other nameless servants present at ToJ.

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In terms of the "falling on his sword" idea, I was thinking that there was a kind of understanding that Dayne, HR and Ned came to-- that it wasn't simply about Howland stepping forward and giving a lecture on honor out of the blue or anything. I was thinking that HR came forward to ask for a run-down of everything that transpired- the truth about Ned's family, what happened with Rhaeger and Lyanna in the interim, etc. In my imagination, I'd wondered if during this conversation Howland interrogated Dayne's honor after hearing the full story, and this is the point that Dayne has a change of heart. I hadn't thought seppuku as much as a Qhorin Halfhand-esque scenario, but I could see either in this circumstance.

I think that my big investment in this idea has more to do with the significance of the KotLT, how the notion of passing on honor would be continued by Howland. Something about this appeals to me greatly, though, on a level of subtext or thematic resolution, and I don't pretend to read any of it as "evidence" or anything.

It's probably a conversation for another thread, but I'd thought that the KG were greatly troubled by their vow to "stand by," and some came to regret doing so (Jaime, Barristan). I admit that I personally have some fringe beliefs about the culpability of the KG who allowed the atrocities to occur, and I think it might make sense that Dayne came to realize this as well- that "protecting the king" is not the greatest form of honor for a knight, but rather protecting those who cannot protect themselves. I don't think it's such a stretch that Dayne may have put down his sword once he saw that the best form of protection was more subtle than that which the KG could offer; I think residual guilt could be a factor as well.

And again, I agree that I like the idea of the KotLT providing an overall theme for the template of what honor in a Knight should have looked like before the rot and corruption started to set in.

The Nights Watch has also been eroding from what it's original intent was, which was also a life of honor.

I think the sentiment that the KotLT expresses, which at this point may sound naive is also at the same time correct.

The only other person who openly despises current "Knighthood" ironically is The Hound, because he sees them for what they've become.

If Lyanna is the KotLT, she represents, (much like Brienne), a revolution in Females because they embrace honor as an extention of their own individuality rather than an extention of someone elses. I would be disappointed if Lyanna as the KotLT is nothing more than a chance to put a hot chick in pants, "waking the dragon" in the Silver Prince.

I see no reason to believe that a thoughtful person such as Rhaegar, if he is the noble person he is thought to be, would not have been just as captivated by those ideals as much as her looks, and perhaps Dayne as well, and I've often speculated that he might have fought as much for Lyanna as for his King.

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Hi, I'm new to the forum, so please, apologize my mistakes in english and be kind to me :)

I like this L+R=J theory, all the pieces seem to fall into place and I just kinda want a great fate for Jon.

I am sorry if this has been discused before, I really didn't read through all of the Jon material here: There's just one thing that always comes into my mind - I wouldn't even notice these things, but after all the "Seed is strong"...- if jon is Rhaegar's son, he should look like Targ. Every Targ in the books we know had those long silverblond hair. And we have a proof that Stark genes aren't that strong, considering that most of Ned's children look Tully way (and with how we know Cat's character,I think we can be sure they really are Ned's). So how come that suddenly Stark gene was stronger than Targ's?

And one more thing I noticed (again, sorry if it was brought up before): in the series (I realize that the books are much more reliable source), we can see that Dany's visit in House of Undying is farely different than in books. But GRRM still is a part of the creative team and has a big say in it, and I think when they said him "We don't have money and technique for all that, too many characters also, woud be confusing for non-readers..." he said "okay, but there's a message I need to send, cause it will be important later."

So we see Dany walking in the great hall of King's Landing, with torn roof (dragons? might be after some sort of war). They are clearly teasing her with what she wants the most (she has to turn away from Iron Throne and Drogo in order to find dragons), but other interpretation also bears the omnipresent warning Winter is coming into Westeros. But if we also interpret it very literally, she sees SNOW ON THE IRON THRONE. Can it be more hinting than that?

Welcome to the boards, and ask away- not everyone is a grouch ;)

It's supposed to be fun.

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I don't think Wylla was present at the ToJ. Ned must have met her after the ToJ when he went to return Dawn to Starfall. A wet nurse is required only if the mother can't feed the baby and is seeked out in this case. Even if Rhaegar had anticipated a difficult birth or just as precaution had intended for a wet nurse to be present the woman had to be with child herself or having given birth recently in order to produce milk. That means she was seeked out later which could rise suspicions and I don't think that it could be kept secret.

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I don't think Wylla was present at the ToJ. Ned must have met her after the ToJ when he went to return Dawn to Starfall. A wet nurse is required only if the mother can't feed the baby and is seeked out in this case. Even if Rhaegar had anticipated a difficult birth or just as precaution had intended for a wet nurse to be present the woman had to be with child herself or having given birth recently in order to produce milk. That means she was seeked out later which could rise suspicions and I don't think that it could be kept secret.

That would have been too late - Jon needed to be sustained somehow meanwhile ever since Lyanna's state became worsening, even if on goatmilk, and this still had to be arranged somehow, since I don't think ToJ kept any goats (and i don't really see Dayne milking them). And, if you're arranging goats, why not arrange a wetnurse meanwhile? Wylla may have arrived mere days before Ned.

A correct point, though, that a wetnurse must have been breastfeeding or given birth recently, to which another problem ties: if Wylla was originally from Starfall proper, she wouldn't be able to claim Jon as her own because all the people of Starfall would know this wasn't true. I wonder if GRRM thought this over up to such detail.

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Even if Rhaegar had anticipated a difficult birth or just as precaution had intended for a wet nurse to be present the woman had to be with child herself or having given birth recently in order to produce milk. That means she was seeked out later which could rise suspicions and I don't think that it could be kept secret.

This isn't true. Women can continue lactating long after giving birth, as long as they have a steady supply of children who are suckling on them. See, for instance, Lysa Arryn, who's been breastfeeding her son for eight years.

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This isn't true. Women can continue lactating long after giving birth, as long as they have a steady supply of children who are suckling on them. See, for instance, Lysa Arryn, who's been breastfeeding her son for eight years.

I'm not sure if she is actually feeding Robert. He is hanging from her breast imo as a sign of psychological attachement and emotional immaturity thus pointing both his physical and mental handicap.

I simply can't understand how there were no rumours about Lyanna while there were lots about both Wylla and Ashara some reaching up North regarding the latter. If there had been other people present at the ToJ there must have been some talk.

Also if a wetnurse was definately needed there should have be one that would accompany Jon to Winterfall as well, but we have no such information. Maybe they found other ways to feed the baby.

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Today's theory: When Meera tells the KoLT story Meera says the rest of the story (after the tournament) is a sadder one.

She is still with Bran and could still tell him. And then Bran could tell Jon and so forth. If necessary.

The main point is that Meera knows. I presume Howland and Jojen also know. And Bran could find out from Meera. Or he could just use his magic vision powers and look at T o J in the past without the help of trees and such

What would prompt Howland to tell Meera and Jojen such fragile information. Not that they aren't mature enough; but it would lead to a political shit storm. If he did, he trusts his children very much.

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I'm not sure if she is actually feeding Robert. He is hanging from her breast imo as a sign of psychological attachement and emotional immaturity thus pointing both his physical and mental handicap.

As long as he actually suckles, she produces. And, since he was never really weaned, the production may have decreased but never stopped.

I simply can't understand how there were no rumours about Lyanna while there were lots about both Wylla and Ashara some reaching up North regarding the latter. If there had been other people present at the ToJ there must have been some talk.

There weren't "lots" about Wylla - Robert asked about her, since this was apparently the story Ned fed him himself, and young Dayne, who was breastfed by Wylla himself, tells Arya, which actually makes for quite a small circle of people. As for Ashara, that is quite understandable: A young woman of a prominent family has to leave the court in disgrace because she's pregnant, and later commits suicide shortly after Ned pays visit to Starfall - the same Ned who was very apparently smitten by her at Harrenhall. That makes for some very juicy gossip, and such gossip spreads like wildfire.

Also if a wetnurse was definately needed there should have be one that would accompany Jon to Winterfall as well, but we have no such information. Maybe they found other ways to feed the baby.

We do - Catelyn recalls that when she arived at Winterfell with baby Robb, Jon and his wetnurse were already there.

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I don't think Wylla was present at the ToJ. Ned must have met her after the ToJ when he went to return Dawn to Starfall. A wet nurse is required only if the mother can't feed the baby and is seeked out in this case. Even if Rhaegar had anticipated a difficult birth or just as precaution had intended for a wet nurse to be present the woman had to be with child herself or having given birth recently in order to produce milk. That means she was seeked out later which could rise suspicions and I don't think that it could be kept secret.

As noted by others, a woman need not have just give birth or be with child herself to nurse.

And noblewomen often, at least in many real-world cultures, use wetnurses just so they can maintain their beauty/figures (and perhaps also to increase the chance of pregnancy - active nursing makes a new pregnancy harder (though not at all impossible)).

That would have been too late - Jon needed to be sustained somehow meanwhile ever since Lyanna's state became worsening, even if on goatmilk, and this still had to be arranged somehow, since I don't think ToJ kept any goats (and i don't really see Dayne milking them). And, if you're arranging goats, why not arrange a wetnurse meanwhile? Wylla may have arrived mere days before Ned.

Indeed. Ned still has to get baby Jon to Starfall. So not only is there a reason for Lyanna to have a wetnurse prepared, it also fits better that there was one at ToJ, rather than Ned have to find some other way of keeping baby Jon going until he got to Starfall.

And it covers the 'they' without having to invent people who should have been mentioned (ie non-servants or fighters), or would be problematic.

I simply can't understand how there were no rumours about Lyanna while there were lots about both Wylla and Ashara some reaching up North regarding the latter.

If there had been other people present at the ToJ there must have been some talk.

Wylla and Ashara are both publicly known figures, so to speak. At least their role in this is/was visible. Lyanna is hidden, and almost no-one knows about her role.

Why must there be talk? You think House Dayne, just about the most honourable and storied and ancient House around can't have a few (only need one or two) loyal retainers around who wouldn't blab about what would effectively be treasonous actions against the Baratheon regime?

Also if a wetnurse was definately needed there should have be one that would accompany Jon to Winterfall as well, but we have no such information.

Yes, almost certainly Wylla. Why would you change a wetnurse if you don't need to? We know Jon+wetnurse were already at Winterfell before Catelyn got back. Wylla has been in Dayne employ for 'many years' - presumably at least 12, since she also nursed Ned Dayne. But there is no reason why she couldn't have taken Jon to Winterfell and then been sent back to Starfall when he was weaned.

And how else would Robert know about Wylla? Why would he even be informed about wetnurse Ned used for a short time (a week? a month?) at Starfall? And think that she was the mother?

Compare that to a wetnurse Ned took from one end of the continent to the other with his bastard, and that might at least be something notable enough for Robert to be informed about and vaguely interested in. And then jump to the assumption that she is the mother - there is no evidence or need for Ned to have told Robert this, its exactly the sort of thing Robert would instinctively assume on his own if he heard Ned's surprise bastard came with a mystery wetnurse dragged the length of the continent.

Also note that we don't know Wylla claimed Jon as her own. Ned Dayne believes she is Jon's mother, but that doesn't mean that Wylla told him so. We have no real idea about how he got this belief. She may have told him, or led him to believe that. Certainly the Daynes don't seem to believe Ashara was Jon's mother, which is odd given that Ned tells Arya that Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne were in love - thats almost two contradictory stories from young Ned... (who wasn't even born at the time of course, so knows only what he has heard from other sources).

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I simply can't understand how there were no rumours about Lyanna while there were lots about both Wylla and Ashara some reaching up North regarding the latter.

eeeeerrrr...Lyanna was "kidnapped and raped" by Rhaegar, and died (?)

Wylla and Ashara are both publicly known figures, so to speak. At least their role in this is/was visible. Lyanna is hidden, and almost no-one knows about her role

Ashara is a celebrated beauty (she's known and -sort of- famous) Wylla is an employee of House Dayne.

Yes, almost certainly Wylla. Why would you change a wetnurse if you don't need to? We know Jon+wetnurse were already at Winterfell before Catelyn got back. Wylla has been in Dayne employ for 'many years' - presumably at least 12, since she also nursed Ned Dayne. But there is no reason why she couldn't have taken Jon to Winterfell and then been sent back to Starfall when he was weaned.

and how you contain other people asking her questions? Maybe Ned have them locked in a room in Winterfell 'til the baby didn't want milk anymore or grew teeth?

I think would have been wise if Ned went changing wetnurses on the road.

And how else would Robert know about Wylla? Why would he even be informed about wetnurse Ned used for a short time (a week? a month?) at Starfall? And think that she was the mother?

Compare that to a wetnurse Ned took from one end of the continent to the other with his bastard, and that might at least be something notable enough for Robert to be informed about and vaguely interested in. And then jump to the assumption that she is the mother - there is no evidence or need for Ned to have told Robert this, its exactly the sort of thing Robert would instinctively assume on his own if he heard Ned's surprise bastard came with a mystery wetnurse dragged the length of the continent.

as said above, I don't think Ned took Wylla to Winterfell. If they agreed on the whole "Ned's the father and Wylla the mother" they didn't go showing off themselves around Westeros, and certainly Ned didn't introduce her to Catelyn!

It's Ned Stark, not Woody Allen :P

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Ok - weird question maybe....but does anyone think that the KotLT event caused Howland to feel indebted to Lyanna similar to Brienne to Cat when they first start their relationship? If that was the case I wonder if Howland viewed her as the "Queen" and therefore views Jon as legitimate King? In an effect he would be a long distance Queen's Guard member - he seems to be feeding his kids the information (passing it on) and I can't think of any other situation that would get Dayne to not try and see Jon to the throne...

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Ok - weird question maybe....but does anyone think that the KotLT event caused Howland to feel indebted to Lyanna similar to Brienne to Cat when they first start their relationship? If that was the case I wonder if Howland viewed her as the "Queen" and therefore views Jon as legitimate King? In an effect he would be a long distance Queen's Guard member - he seems to be feeding his kids the information (passing it on) and I can't think of any other situation that would get Dayne to not try and see Jon to the throne...

As long as you accept Lyanna as the KotLT, absolutely he felt indebted to her. We don't know for sure, but if Ned didn't initially ask Howland to accompany him to the ToJ to rescue Lyanna, Howland probably insisted on going. The Reeds have a strong sense of love and loyalty towards the Starks, even seen through Howland's children. I think that sentiment really started growing as a result of the events of the KotLT....

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eeeeerrrr...Lyanna was "kidnapped and raped" by Rhaegar, and died (?)

Ashara is a celebrated beauty (she's known and -sort of- famous) Wylla is an employee of House Dayne.

and how you contain other people asking her questions? Maybe Ned have them locked in a room in Winterfell 'til the baby didn't want milk anymore or grew teeth?

I think would have been wise if Ned went changing wetnurses on the road.

as said above, I don't think Ned took Wylla to Winterfell. If they agreed on the whole "Ned's the father and Wylla the mother" they didn't go showing off themselves around Westeros, and certainly Ned didn't introduce her to Catelyn!

It's Ned Stark, not Woody Allen :P

And thank the gods that Ned is not Woody Allen. :stillsick:

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As long as you accept Lyanna as the KotLT, absolutely he felt indebted to her. We don't know for sure, but if Ned didn't initially ask Howland to accompany him to the ToJ to rescue Lyanna, Howland probably insisted on going. The Reeds have a strong sense of love and loyalty towards the Starks, even seen through Howland's children. I think that sentiment really started growing as a result of the events of the KotLT....

THIS.

but I've still got the feeling that maybe Howland was mistaken and thought Ned was the KotLT (due to Meera's and Jojen's surprise that Ned had not shared the story with Bran). That doesn't change much though. Either Howland thought that Ned was the KotTL and followed him to the ToJ or knew about Lyanna being the KotTL all along.

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