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R+L=J v.31


Stubby

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I've read all the different theories and evidence on this, and as many note, R+L=J does appear to be solid. But my question, which I apologize if covered but I haven't seen, is why and how GRRM would change course and have Jon just be an actual bastard? As much as it might seem apparent that R+L=J and thereby not exactly a "shocker" when revealed, to do something else instead seems much more of a let down. Any thoughts on how GRRM would reverse course?

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I've read all the different theories and evidence on this, and as many note, R+L=J does appear to be solid. But my question, which I apologize if covered but I haven't seen, is why and how GRRM would change course and have Jon just be an actual bastard? As much as it might seem apparent that R+L=J and thereby not exactly a "shocker" when revealed, to do something else instead seems much more of a let down. Any thoughts on how GRRM would reverse course?

Jon is an actual bastard as a Ned's son anyway... and if R+L never wed as we suspect, he'll still be.

I have no real answer to your question but I'd be extremely disappointed if GRRM changes course just to give the readers a surprise. Most are aware of this theory, fair enough, but then again the author gave the clues in the first place. And really, there are a lot of people who haven't yet found out (you'd be surprised how many). I guess he wanted us to speculate and possibly find the answer to Jon's "riddle". Overall I don't think he'll take the chance to change the backbone of the story just because we "know".

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Jon is an actual bastard as a Ned's son anyway... and if R+L never wed as we suspect, he'll still be.

I have no real answer to your question but I'd be extremely disappointed if GRRM changes course just to give the readers a surprise. Most are aware of this theory, fair enough, but then again the author gave the clues in the first place. And really, there are a lot of people who haven't yet found out (you'd be surprised how many). I guess he wanted us to speculate and possibly find the answer to Jon's "riddle". Overall I don't think he'll take the chance to change the backbone of the story just because we "know".

That's pretty much my feelings 100%, but didn't realize that many don't already think it! The only reason I mentioned "actual" bastard is that I figured if R+L=J is true he'd be legitimate, and from what I can guess, the proof is in the crypts in Winterfell (which I'm sure a 10000 people have said). Thanks!

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That's pretty much my feelings 100%, but didn't realize that many don't already think it! The only reason I mentioned "actual" bastard is that I figured if R+L=J is true he'd be legitimate, and from what I can guess, the proof is in the crypts in Winterfell (which I'm sure a 10000 people have said). Thanks!

you're welcome :)

well, the thing is that most of the people who read the books or watched the TV show rush to using related forums etc so even if they didn't have a clue they come before this realization soon enough :) I did this survey some time ago though and the results were like 50-50%. But I guess that the more successful the TV show gets, the more people will know. Will the author choose to erase all the work he's done so far? I wouldn't. first of all because he'll have to work a double shift just to close the "holes" he's left open!

now, on Jon's legitimacy... I think its not important! IMHO Jon will never make it to the Iron Throne. He doesn't want that. On the other hand Jon is the song of fire and ice, legitimate or not. So what purpose would a marriage serve? Of course for Jon will be devastating.. a bastard. AGAIN! (I think there will be some very fire drama scene there!).

ETA: btw and in order to set things straight, people (including me) have been talking of an R+L marriage because of the ToJ events. What if Arthur Dayne and friends stayed there because Rhaegar said he'll legitimize Jon as soon as he'd become a king? that would mean breaking their vows of course, which they said they didn't. But what if this was one of the things we'd do for love??????

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I have to admit reading forums on some of the things I wasn't clear on, such as prophecies or visions, but I did feel quite a bit of evidence to Jon (as I read them all the way from AGOT to FFC within like 4 weeks of the show starting, then bought DWD day 1), but some items like Bran's visions (when he was in the weirwood) didn't appear as clear especially the farther back ones (not Benjen and Lyanna).

I agree with you that Jon's legitimacy is unimportant, but they kept mentioning the crypts, even in other POV, so I figured SOMETHING must be down there and figured it'd be something like that. But I don't see him on the Iron Throne either.

50/50 huh? Sounds about right for avid readers :drunk:

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My take is that Rhaegar and Lyanna did get married...in the ways of the north to be specific....and that certain kid will use his treeish-internet to look into the past and see them as he saw Ned in DwD (of course he will have to get pass all the tree-porn sites that will come first in his search :cool4: )

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Today's theory: When Meera tells the KoLT story Meera says the rest of the story (after the tournament) is a sadder one.

She is still with Bran and could still tell him. And then Bran could tell Jon and so forth. If necessary.

The main point is that Meera knows. I presume Howland and Jojen also know. And Bran could find out from Meera. Or he could just use his magic vision powers and look at T o J in the past without the help of trees and such

:agree:
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are you familiar with Dunk&Egg stories? well, the Targs were supposed to be given a dragon's egg when they were born. Maybe *they* put Jon's egg in the crypts... :D :D :D

Haha that would be cool, though I'm not sure it would prove much for the skeptics. Love the Dunk & Egg stories, can't wait for the next installment :)

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now, on Jon's legitimacy... I think its not important! IMHO Jon will never make it to the Iron Throne. He doesn't want that. On the other hand Jon is the song of fire and ice, legitimate or not. So what purpose would a marriage serve? Of course for Jon will be devastating.. a bastard. AGAIN! (I think there will be some very fire drama scene there!).

I disagree with you on that. I think it would be much more devastating to find out he wasn't a bastard but had to live as one and endure all the prejudices a bastard would in that society, when actually he was the rightful heir to that bloody throne lol At least that's how I would feel in his place. All it would take would be imagining what his life would have been like if Robert had been killed in the Trident instead of him killing Rhaegar. Whatever the case, I can't wait for all the angst!

Also, yeah, he doesn't want the throne, but that's exactly why he should get it in the end. :rolleyes:

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That's pretty much my feelings 100%, but didn't realize that many don't already think it! The only reason I mentioned "actual" bastard is that I figured if R+L=J is true he'd be legitimate, and from what I can guess, the proof is in the crypts in Winterfell (which I'm sure a 10000 people have said). Thanks!

I keep thinking about the crypts as well, but maybe the answer is simpler than we think. Perhaps it's not some hidden "proof" that's lying in the crypts: just all that remains of Lyanna. Wouldn't it be ironic if all the time Jon has spent thinking about his mother and where she might be, she was right below him? Couldn't he just be dreaming of the crypts because that's where she is?

That said, a Targ Egg with Jon's name on it would be pretty bad ass. :cool4:

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I've read all the different theories and evidence on this, and as many note, R+L=J does appear to be solid. But my question, which I apologize if covered but I haven't seen, is why and how GRRM would change course and have Jon just be an actual bastard? As much as it might seem apparent that R+L=J and thereby not exactly a "shocker" when revealed, to do something else instead seems much more of a let down. Any thoughts on how GRRM would reverse course?

For me is as simple as if Jon is a bastard of R+L the kingsguard wouldn't be at ToJ, they would be with Viserys. I have no idea how GRRM is going to resolve that. He must know. I'm partial on the northern way marriage.

are you familiar with Dunk&Egg stories? well, the Targs were supposed to be given a dragon's egg when they were born. Maybe *they* put Jon's egg in the crypts... :D :D :D

well... maybe the egg hatched and it's that dragon Summer supposedly saw flying when Bran & Co. got out of the cypts....

chan! :rofl:

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after re reading the series. and evaluating the Angelfire page about Jon's parentage, it is VERY apparent that the most clues about jons parentage are seen in AGOT by an overwhelming amount. after that GRRM tones it down a ton in order to leave some mystery because he knows he overplayed his hand.

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are you familiar with Dunk&Egg stories? well, the Targs were supposed to be given a dragon's egg when they were born. Maybe *they* put Jon's egg in the crypts... :D :D :D

What are the chances there could be a fourth Dragons egg; one to match Jon specifically?

I read Martins childrens book, which as you can imagine is not Disney, "The Ice Dragon," which was unique amongst even Dragons, and thought what a twist that would be if that tied into the Winterfell crypts, the hot springs and whats in Lyannas tomb, not to mention the fact that the Ice Dragon was mixture of both elements- ice and fire. :idea:

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I haven't read anything else from GRRM, so forgive me if I am wrong(I'm still finishing my first read of the series and I am at the end of ADWD).

Anyway, Jon mentions ice dragons quite often-considering the cold-like the breath of an ice dragon, and the ice dragon seems to be a villain.

Since I have come to the conclusion that Jon is the whitest character in the books I kind of don't like it. I don't want his dragon to be the villain dragon.....but as i said, may be the ice dragon is not a villain and I am wrong.

Still, I want all of Dany's dragons to be his-no one can ride more than one dragon Dany says. I want Jon to ride all of hers!

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I disagree with you on that. I think it would be much more devastating to find out he wasn't a bastard but had to live as one and endure all the prejudices a bastard would in that society, when actually he was the rightful heir to that bloody throne lol

oh dear... you've got a point there... on the other hand, not only a bastard but a Targ bastard??? yeah, can't choose what's worst :dunno:

Also, yeah, he doesn't want the throne, but that's exactly why he should get it in the end. :rolleyes:

hahaahaha!!! but... no. That wouldn't be the bittersweet ending the author promised us but pure tragedy! look at the guy! he never knew who his mother was, he thought he knew his father but nooooo, he grew up feeling miserable, he chose the Wall that for other people equals punishment, he fought wights, attacked by warged eagle (half of his beautiful face tore down), the woman he loved died, he was stabbed and after all of these you want him on the Iron Throne???? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

you have a cruel, cruel heart my Lady.... :P :P :P

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I always thought Jon would follow in Ned's footsteps and take the seat of his house for duty and muse that it was all meant for his big brother.

as a Targ you mean? that he'd take all meant for Aegon?

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I keep thinking about the crypts as well, but maybe the answer is simpler than we think. Perhaps it's not some hidden "proof" that's lying in the crypts: just all that remains of Lyanna. Wouldn't it be ironic if all the time Jon has spent thinking about his mother and where she might be, she was right below him? Couldn't he just be dreaming of the crypts because that's where she is?

That said, a Targ Egg with Jon's name on it would be pretty bad ass. :cool4:

So I have thoughts about "proof" in the crypts as well, but I wonder if it will be Stark related rather than Targ. I ran this by Apple a little while ago, and want to post it here in case there's something to it.

In the first Cat chapter of aCoK she's thinking about Robb's crown, and muses that it's based on the one worn by Torrhen Stark: "The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost 3 centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror...What Aegon had done with it no man could say." Hmm. I don't know if this has been discussed before, but the wording here is interesting. There's always speculation on a Targ crown or a sword or dragon eggs in the crypts; do you think there's a possibility this crown could be down there, a token of Rhaeger's affection for Lyanna? That the fact that the Targs had confiscated the Stark crown, but that Rhaeger returns it may be read as confirmation of their affections, as well as setting up Jon as a true King of Winter (which seems to be the path he's going toward). It could also be seen as testament to Rhaeger's belief that the realm needs a King of Winter + fire, according to his song of fire+ ice prophesy (which was admittedly said with regard to Aegon, but the point about duality remains).

Anyway, I'd love for the proof in the crypts to include the original crown of Winter.

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I haven't read anything else from GRRM, so forgive me if I am wrong(I'm still finishing my first read of the series and I am at the end of ADWD).

Anyway, Jon mentions ice dragons quite often-considering the cold-like the breath of an ice dragon, and the ice dragon seems to be a villain.

Since I have come to the conclusion that Jon is the whitest character in the books I kind of don't like it. I don't want his dragon to be the villain dragon.....but as i said, may be the ice dragon is not a villain and I am wrong.

Still, I want all of Dany's dragons to be his-no one can ride more than one dragon Dany says. I want Jon to ride all of hers!

You should read it, it's about 107 pages, beautiful illustrations- very bittersweet.

Like I said, it's a kid book, but it's not Disney. :frown5:

In this case, the Ice Dragon is the hero, (I don't want to give away spoilers), but I think the story is set in the North, or someplace like the North.

(Thats just my read on it).

Maybe the reason this legend is known to the Northererners, or the Starks is because it was passed down verbally, and not written. And the Targaryens being ethnocentristic, would not even be aware that such creatures might exist beyond their realm until the event of the birth and "death" of someone like Jon and the fall of it's haven, (Winterfell), as a catalyst for it's reawakening.

Just think the hot springs surrounded by ice and only one type of dragon suited to Winter, because I'm not entirely sure Danys dragons are cut out for that weather.

Didn't Aegon the Conquerer land in Winterfell during a long Summer?

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