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R+L=J v.31


Stubby

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I love this idea about the Crown of Winter being in the crypts of Winterfell. I always felt the crowning of Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty was a symbolic act with a deeper meaning to those who knew Rhaegar's mindset. Did he follow it up by crowning her with the ancient crown of the King of Winter in private? I'm thinking about the changes he told Jaime he was planning on making and how sweeping they might have been. There was more than just replacing his father going on here imo.

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So I have thoughts about "proof" in the crypts as well, but I wonder if it will be Stark related rather than Targ. I ran this by Apple a little while ago, and want to post it here in case there's something to it.

In the first Cat chapter of aCoK she's thinking about Robb's crown, and muses that it's based on the one worn by Torrhen Stark: "The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost 3 centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror...What Aegon had done with it no man could say." Hmm. I don't know if this has been discussed before, but the wording here is interesting. There's always speculation on a Targ crown or a sword or dragon eggs in the crypts; do you think there's a possibility this crown could be down there, a token of Rhaeger's affection for Lyanna? That the fact that the Targs had confiscated the Stark crown, but that Rhaeger returns it may be read as confirmation of their affections, as well as setting up Jon as a true King of Winter (which seems to be the path he's going toward). It could also be seen as testament to Rhaeger's belief that the realm needs a King of Winter + fire, according to his song of fire+ ice prophesy (which was admittedly said with regard to Aegon, but the point about duality remains).

Anyway, I'd love for the proof in the crypts to include the original crown of Winter.

I agree with that, and it connects the two events nicely.

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Speaking of crowns... if those roses Lyanna was clutching on her deathbed were truly her crown from Harrenhall, what do you think Ned did with it? Could it be one of the things she asked of him - to be buried at Winterfell, with her crown of blue roses? 'Cause, you know, if it was still recognisable as a tourney crown, it would also be a clue for the nature of her relationship with Rhaegar, as Ned would never bury his sister with something from her rapist.

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now, on Jon's legitimacy... I think its not important! IMHO Jon will never make it to the Iron Throne. He doesn't want that. On the other hand Jon is the song of fire and ice, legitimate or not. So what purpose would a marriage serve? Of course for Jon will be devastating.. a bastard. AGAIN! (I think there will be some very fire drama scene there!).

If Rob's letter reaches Howland Reed, and names Jon his heir, it will legitimaize him as one of the last acts Rob completed as King in the North, so the specifics of his birth won't really matter. I think most of the North would recognize it. I agree Jon may not even want the Iron Throne, though if his watch ends through his stabbing, I can see him wanting to fulfill Rob's last wishes and declare himself King in the North and Lord of Winterfell, at least until Bran or Rickon can rule or Jeyne turns up with Rob's heir.

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While lurking through all the R+L=J-theories, and also a thread about how the readers, characters, and Jon, will find out about this, i realized something.

What if, right after the tourney at Harrenhall in the year of the false spring, where Lyanna and Rhaegar supposedly fell in love, they went to the Isle of Faces in the Gods Eye, and had a secret sneak-marriage under the weirwood trees.

The witnesses to this marriage would be one or more of the Stark-brothers and maybe Howland Reed (who might have been the one to escort them there).

And now when Bran is hooked up to the weirnet with Bloodraven, he too might get to witness this marriage, but without realizing what it means.

I don't really know where I want to get by this theory, just throwing it out there!

In addition to this theory, and having read your posts about the crown of winter.

What if Rhaegar both crowned and married Lyanna at the isle of faces?

I mean, there's an awful lot of weirwood trees, and crowning her in front of the old gods would make sense!

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after re reading the series. and evaluating the Angelfire page about Jon's parentage, it is VERY apparent that the most clues about jons parentage are seen in AGOT by an overwhelming amount. after that GRRM tones it down a ton in order to leave some mystery because he knows he overplayed his hand.

I don't think he overplayed his hand...I think the pace of the series changed at some point and went from 3 books to 6, and later the 4th had to be split.

So I have thoughts about "proof" in the crypts as well, but I wonder if it will be Stark related rather than Targ. I ran this by Apple a little while ago, and want to post it here in case there's something to it.

In the first Cat chapter of aCoK she's thinking about Robb's crown, and muses that it's based on the one worn by Torrhen Stark: "The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost 3 centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror...What Aegon had done with it no man could say." Hmm. I don't know if this has been discussed before, but the wording here is interesting. There's always speculation on a Targ crown or a sword or dragon eggs in the crypts; do you think there's a possibility this crown could be down there, a token of Rhaeger's affection for Lyanna? That the fact that the Targs had confiscated the Stark crown, but that Rhaeger returns it may be read as confirmation of their affections, as well as setting up Jon as a true King of Winter (which seems to be the path he's going toward). It could also be seen as testament to Rhaeger's belief that the realm needs a King of Winter + fire, according to his song of fire+ ice prophesy (which was admittedly said with regard to Aegon, but the point about duality remains).

Anyway, I'd love for the proof in the crypts to include the original crown of Winter.

Jon couldn't be the King of Winter unless a decree say so or he became the only Stark relative alive. He is the King of Westeros but not the Lord of Winterfell.

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Jon couldn't be the King of Winter unless a decree say so or he became the only Stark relative alive. He is the King of Westeros but not the Lord of Winterfell.

Well, this probably belongs in another thread, but there are some possible indications in the last few chapters of DwD that Jon is both embracing the identity of, and being accepted as, a King of Winter in all but name. I don't want to get too off topic here, but I think that Jon's quite close to being recognized as a KoW (rather than a "Lord of Winterfell" a "Stark" or a "King of the North") in a similar way Mance was recognized as King Beyond the Wall-- that is, not based on royal decree or inheritance, necessarily, but being the "right man for the job." ETA: So I mean to say something that transcends lordly titles and laws to something more primitive in a way. Which is why the whole original Crown of Winter seemed so awesome to me as a possibility.

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Well, this probably belongs in another thread, but there are some possible indications in the last few chapters of DwD that Jon is both embracing the identity of, and being accepted as, a King of Winter in all but name. I don't want to get too off topic here, but I think that Jon's quite close to being recognized as a KoW (rather than a "Lord of Winterfell" a "Stark" or a "King of the North") in a similar way Mance was recognized as King Beyond the Wall-- that is, not based on royal decree or inheritance, necessarily, but being the "right man for the job." ETA: So I mean to say something that transcends lordly titles and laws to something more primitive in a way. Which is why the whole original Crown of Winter seemed so awesome to me as a possibility.

Yes... I think I previously interchanged King in the North (as Robb was) with King of Winter.

As you see it Jon is the "de facto" King of Winter , is a good point. I like it.

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I apologize if this is a stupid question, but what exactly is the difference between King in the North and King of Winter?

I think the King in the North and the King of Winter were occupied by the same person (a Stark) for most of history and are somewhat synonymous, but I think there's a connotative difference in what they invoke (a King of Winter being the most "transcendent." Robb was declared King in the North, for example, but when one speaks of the old kings and ancient history, "Kings of Winter" tend to be used. This borders crackpot territory because it's speculative, but I'd gotten the sense that Kings of Winter predated the establishment of "Kings in the North," and invokes something more ancient and elemental than the more political distinction.

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I see. I was always a little fuzzy about the distinction. So could a KoW and KitN co-exist? Or is the KoW sort of the de facto KitN?

Yea, I think for the most part the "King in the North" was also nominally called the "King of Winter," that is, they are used interchangeably sometimes. When Robb was declared KitN, Maege Mormont added "The King of Winter!" but I get the sense that the connotation of this distinction differs a bit from KitN, though both are used somewhat interchangeably (and in terms of Robb's kingship "King in the North" was emphasized rather than the "Winter" description, which makes sense as it was a political movement).

The terms converge a bit during scenes of the Winterfell crypts. I ought to go through and take measure of when KitN is used versus KoW to make this more precise. I got the sense that there were nuanced differences depending on which term is used, but I should probably branch that off into a separate thread :cool4: (sorry for the derail everyone).

ETA:

Mayhaps a King of Winter is the equivalent of a Sword of the Morning....?

That's a really interesting idea. I don't know what to make of it. I'll go through and take note of the times it's used to look for a more precise pattern. Will probably take me a little while though....

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Perhaps a King of Winter is only necessary when a "true winter" is upon the kingdom, one like those that Old Nan describes, a winter where the Others come, a winter like the one about to come to present Westeros. The title King of Winter might always officially be part of the title of a King in the North (like Commander-in-Chief for a US president or Defender of the Faith for a King of the British Isles) but perhaps its usage would fall by the wayside during stretches of summers and mild winters, like those Westeros has been enjoying during recent history.

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Why would Rhegar leave Lyanna pregnant with his child in the ToJ with no midwives to attend her? Unless I missed something there seemed only to be the Kingsguard with her. And if there were others, then they may know what happened there.

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Why would Rhegar leave Lyanna pregnant with his child in the ToJ with no midwives to attend her? Unless I missed something there seemed only to be the Kingsguard with her. And if there were others, then they may know what happened there.

There were most likely attendants with her that we haven't heard of yet. A maester is a possibility, as well as a wet-nurse (Wylla). The wet-nurse is as close to a certainty as we have. Otherwise, a new-born infant would not have survived in a remote place such as the ToJ after Lyanna died. He certainly wouldn't have survived the journey to Starfall.

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Why would Rhegar leave Lyanna pregnant with his child in the ToJ with no midwives to attend her? Unless I missed something there seemed only to be the Kingsguard with her. And if there were others, then they may know what happened there.

I think you have a good point, and wondered the same thing.

Starfall and the Daynes may have been a resource, but the more people you have coming and going, the more attention you can attract, and the Daynes also walk a line, because they are traditional Bannermen of the Martells as well as being Tarygaryn loyalists.

Maybe the simplest explaination too, is that Rhaegar inadvertently took Lyannas physical condition for granted.

If his frail, sickly wife could birth two children and live, maybe he just thought of all the women in the Kingdom, the much stronger Lyanna would have the least complications, so just employed a midwife, rather than securing the Starfall Maester as well.

Maybe he thought he'd survive, and planned to bring back help from KL, I don't know?

I was almost born on a sidewalk, because my dad wasn't thinking, paniced and drove off, leaving my mom, so sometimes men don't always think things through in situations like this. ;)

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