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R+L=J v.31


Stubby

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I think Martin confirmed that Ned gave Jon his name, but I think it's feasible that he had a secret Targaryen name- Perhaps Jahaerys?

Given that he was born after Rhaegar died, Lyanna may well have given him that name in memory of his father, which obviously would have had to be changed since it would have been a HUGE clue.

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If he's got a Targ name, then it's one of the "successful" ones, for sure. I would be for Viserys if there already wasn't a Viserys in the family at the time of naming. Daeron, Jaehaerys, Aemon, Baelor (?), Aenar (?).

(Or maybe he has some so far unused (terrible) Valyrian name like . . . Maegagaegorion . . . or something. :drunk: :stillsick: .)

Other than that, there's a distant possibility that Lyanna enforced a Stark name, but Ned changed it because he didn't want to offend his wife (more than neccessary) by giving his bastard child a traditional Stark name. (Half serious here: how about a Rickard? Perhaps that's the reason why Ned gave his son name "Rickon" and not "Rickard?" Not wanting to steal from Lyanna, Ned? :D )

Eddard Targaryen? :lol:

Torrhen Targaryen...

Cregan Targaryen (Cregan Stark was the finest swordman according to the Dragonknight)

I personally support....Brandon Targaryen! isn't getting more Stark than that!!..

(even Old Nan didn't distinguish between brandons anymore)

I think it's a practical certainty that R+L=J is true, and I think the importance of Jon's parentage is going to play a vital role in the climax of the story. It's pretty easy to draw the connection between a Targaryen and Stark bloodline and the title of the series itself, and I think it's going to manifest itself in the end when Jon skinchanges into a dragon.

Isn't this the logical conclusion with a Targaryen and Stark child? The Targaryens have the connection with dragons. The Starks have the warg powers.

I agree with all your post.

I also think that Starks & Targs didn't mix earlier for this reason and the possibility was something Lyanna and Rhaegar were exploring (meaning, in their time dragons and wargs were tales from the past...)

Always found intriguing that Torrhen Stark give up the North without fight.

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Considering Jon would be a non-purborn Targaryen, would that effect what his name might be?

Do Targs born of bro-sis-cest have different name patterns?

ps i love the notion of 'Brandon Targaryen'. So much win.

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Here's something I just picked up. In the show when Jon leaves for the Wall and asks about his mom he says "We'll talk about it next time we meet".

I can't remember if it's in the books as well, but I think so.

Anyways, he is waiting for Jon to say his vows and so he wouldn't lawfully be able to claim the throne if he felt like it. He was going to reveal it to him when he was a man of the Night's Watch and was legally bound to them for life....

Not sure if this has been posted, I'm sure it has. Just another clue that reinforces this a little.

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that doesn't happen in the books. It's just the way the t.v show has to make the point that Jon's mother is (I don't know how to say this in english, sorry) an intrigue (?) and that it's going to be very difficult to know who she is (basically, when Ned dies, that's it)

It works very well, if you ask me. they can forget about that part of Jon's storyline until season 7 when it comes into play.

They don't have the same tools as Martin.

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that doesn't happen in the books. It's just the way the t.v show has to make the point that Jon's mother is (I don't know how to say this in english, sorry) an intrigue (?) and that it's going to be very difficult to know who she is (basically, when Ned dies, that's it)

It works very well, if you ask me. they can forget about that part of Jon's storyline until season 7 when it comes into play.

They don't have the same tools as Martin.

Makes sense. I haven't read GoT in like 6 years, so I couldn't remember.
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that doesn't happen in the books. It's just the way the t.v show has to make the point that Jon's mother is (I don't know how to say this in english, sorry) an intrigue (?) and that it's going to be very difficult to know who she is (basically, when Ned dies, that's it)

It works very well, if you ask me. they can forget about that part of Jon's storyline until season 7 when it comes into play.

They don't have the same tools as Martin.

And you said it very well :D

I also think that part was in the show to reenforce the intensity of Neds love for Jons Mother, (which of course was Lyanna and she was the KotLT).

I felt Ned spoke of her in pride, not shame.

" When next we meet, I shall tell you of your Mother."

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Who is to say that when Jon "wakes" he won't be evil as heck. Maybe he is the NightKing? The vessel for the Great Other.

You know after Stannis dies and he claims the Nightfort (as well as the rest of the wall) for his own and hosts his army of wildlings.

I only say this because if you take the Raganok parallel seriously, his counter part is Sutr, who is a badguy.

I love the idea that Jon has been built as this Marysue that can do no wrong, only to be revealed as the big bad.

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Along the lines of Jon's fate at the end of ADWD: There has to be some point (literary) to getting all those characters at Winterfell...and then taking Jon out of the picture. There is the entire North represented either following (or at least traveling with) Boltons or the clans Stannis had won over. The entire freaking North AND both Balon's "sons" (as he himself calls them) are there.Yet Jon is absent and even if its only flesh wounds, he looks to be out of the picture for the time being. No Starks are there unless Benjen is hiding in the deeper levels of the crypts. So much manpower in one place. And something mysterious going on at the Wall. There seems to be something at the tip of my brain about this setup.

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And personally, I don't think it's a coincidence that the prologue in A Dance With Dragons is all about wargs and skinchanging. It could just be a clue about Jon's fate at the end of the book, but I think it also might be a hint about something more to come.

I agree, it is a hint about that skinchanging is considered abject and abomination. It could be a hint not primarily to Jon's arc, but to Bran's crossing of moral and ethical boundaries in using Hodor.

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And you said it very well :D

I also think that part was in the show to reenforce the intensity of Neds love for Jons Mother, (which of course was Lyanna and she was the KotLT).

I felt Ned spoke of her in pride, not shame.

" When next we meet, I shall tell you of your Mother."

That scene was my favorite with Sean Bean (who definitely nailed Ned Stark's character), especially because you can tell that he is still pained by the memory. It was probably intended to convey all these inner thoughts we are privy to in Game; "Promise me, Ned", and so on...

On Jon's alternate name: I'm not sure Lyanna was in any state to tell Ned, Howland or Wylla the name she and/or Rhaegar had intended for the baby. If this is the case, there's not a soul alive who would know, except if Bloodraven has heard them say so through the weirnet.

Given that we presume that Lyanna wanted Jon to live incognito, she might have given Ned her blessing - implicitly - to give him some inconspicuous name.

But for amusement's sake, I'm on board with Aemon Targaeryen, the First of His Name.

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I think is very likely for Jon to have an alternative name, one chosen by his parents....

I don't know exactly when Rhaegar left Lyanna to go fight Robert -how advanced her pregnancy was- but I bet they had several months (they say Lyanna went missing for a year) playing the commoners at ToJ like Marie Antoinette in the Petit Trianon. I'd like to think they were playing harp and writing, and probably Rhaegar and/or Lyanna left a volume (at least a letter!) about the prince that was promised to their son.

Maybe that is another thing to be found in Lyanna's tomb.

These last days i was rereading some parts of aGoT, and maybe will be interesting to put together all the dreams Jon has about the crypts (and when!). I didn't remember the part when he share his dreams with Sam...

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Rhaegar presumably wanted a Visenya, so I doubt that if he had been alive when Jon was born he would be very excited.

I think he wanted a son. When Aegon was born, he said to Elia that there must be another one-which I have taken to mean another son-not another daughter.....I think he just wanted another baby.

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I don´t think Jon must have a targ name even if most of them sound pretty cool.

Maybe his R and L said that a girl would be named Visenya and a boy Jon in honour of Rhaegar´s best friend Jon Con.

By the way I am just wondering why Rhaegar named his first daughter Rhaenys, because Visenya was the older of Aegon´s sisters. So why didn´t he name his first daughter Visenya instead of Rhaenys?

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I think the TV show deliberately avoids giving hints about Jon parents, there is no ToJ dream, no blue rose at the Wall in HotU, etc.

But as I said I think it's done on purpose....the show is aimed to casual but also to us die-hard readers, the second we see one of those "big hints" in the TV show we will all jump and say "Aaaahhh is confirmed, R+L=J.....if not why did the include it in the show?"

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I think he wanted a son. When Aegon was born, he said to Elia that there must be another one-which I have taken to mean another son-not another daughter.....I think he just wanted another baby.

Well probably one more head, "the dragon has three heads". But imo the three heads if indeed there will be three don't need to be an exact replica of the original regarding sex and age.

I don´t think Jon must have a targ name even if most of them sound pretty cool.

Maybe his R and L said that a girl would be named Visenya and a boy Jon in honour of Rhaegar´s best friend Jon Con.

By the way I am just wondering why Rhaegar named his first daughter Rhaenys, because Visenya was the older of Aegon´s sisters. So why didn´t he name his first daughter Visenya instead of Rhaenys?

Actually Rhaegar's best friend was Arthur Dayne.

He probably chose the name Rhaenys to honor his ancestor since he was from her line, not Visenya's.

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