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R+L=J v.31


Stubby

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I think he wanted a son. When Aegon was born, he said to Elia that there must be another one-which I have taken to mean another son-not another daughter.....I think he just wanted another baby.

There are some indications that Rhaegar wanted to create a Targaryen bloodline to fulfill the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised, an Aegon, a Rhaenys ... and a Visenya. "The Dragon has three heads, there must be one more". Elia could not give him the daughter he needed, so this may be why he was looking for someone who could give him a Visenya.

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IMHO, I'm not sure the sex of Lyannas child mattered.

While I think that like all Targaryens, Rhaegar observed prophesy, applying anything deeply metaphysical to his actions other than what might turn out to be nothing more than a justification to Elia for running off with Lyanna, might be complicating things.

If he was trying to recreate the powerful Triad of Aegon and his Sisters, and was that diligent in applying the principles of that prophesy to ensure it's success, I don't think he'd make the mistake of misnaming the Sisters, as Visenya was indeed the oldest, and not the youngest.

I think it's as simple as he loved Lyanna, wanted her, and needed to solidify the Succession by having more than one male Heir, and if having three dragons, (or more), to fulfill a possibly Targaryen-centric prophesy, then all the better.

And I think it's possible that once he met Lyanna, he took his head out of the books, focused on her, thus truly fulfilling it.

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Agreed.

But I don't see Jon changing his name.

He had the opportunity to become a Stark and Lord of Winterfell and he didn't take it.

That's why I don't see him taking the throne if Dany, Aegon or another Targ is available.

He would take it if his brother gave it to him. He didn't take it because it wasn't Stannis' to give and because he would have had to burn the weirwood at WF.

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He would take it if his brother gave it to him. He didn't take it because it wasn't Stannis' to give and because he would have had to burn the weirwood at WF.

I forgot about Robb's will....probably because it hasn't been confirmed that he name Jon as his heir.

And he sent Maege Mormont to Howland Reed-who we believe can prove Jon's heritage.

I agree. Jon would take the Stark name and Winterfell if it was given to him by Robb. Also, Robb talked of giving gold to the NW for Jon, and we know that NW need money for food and to pay their debt to the Iron Bank.

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I forgot about Robb's will....probably because it hasn't been confirmed that he name Jon as his heir.

And he sent Maege Mormont to Howland Reed-who we believe can prove Jon's heritage.

I agree. Jon would take the Stark name and Winterfell if it was given to him by Robb. Also, Robb talked of giving gold to the NW for Jon, and we know that NW need money for food and to pay their debt to the Iron Bank.

Not only howland hold robb´s will, but if R+L=J is true, then i think there is a great chance that he also posses some letter writen by rhaegar where he legitimyzes jon as he true son.

Think of that because the ToJ was protected by 3 king´sguard man. This implies that Jon was a member of the royal family.

Jon would be a bastanr form a R+L, cause they were not merried, so he need to acknowlodge him as a true born.

Since Rhaegar its not alive to tell the world that Jon is his trueborn son, then he must have it wirtten.

If such a letter doesnt exist, so Jon is a bastard anyway

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On Jon's alternate name: I'm not sure Lyanna was in any state to tell Ned, Howland or Wylla the name she and/or Rhaegar had intended for the baby. If this is the case, there's not a soul alive who would know, except if Bloodraven has heard them say so through the weirnet.

Given that we presume that Lyanna wanted Jon to live incognito, she might have given Ned her blessing - implicitly - to give him some inconspicuous name.

But for amusement's sake, I'm on board with Aemon Targaeryen, the First of His Name.

As i said, i belive that there might be some letter left by Rhaegar in wich he legitimyze Jon. If that´s true, he could have writen his true name.

Rhaegar was fighting a war, he knew he could die and probably wrote a will.

HE could have trusted the will to Lyanna and after her death Ned could have taken it.

I belive that Howland holds this will now;

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Not only howland hold robb´s will, but if R+L=J is true, then i think there is a great chance that he also posses some letter writen by rhaegar where he legitimyzes jon as he true son.

Think of that because the ToJ was protected by 3 king´sguard man. This implies that Jon was a member of the royal family.

Jon would be a bastanr form a R+L, cause they were not merried, so he need to acknowlodge him as a true born.

Since Rhaegar its not alive to tell the world that Jon is his trueborn son, then he must have it wirtten.

If such a letter doesnt exist, so Jon is a bastard anyway

You seem so sure they didn't get married. If Jon is a bastard of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then why would the KG be at the ToJ?

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Hi all! Long time lurker here and only an occasional poster. I've been following this thread(s) since around, , I dunno, r+l=j 20 or so.

I too subscribe to this theory and have since early in my first reading of GoT. There is just too much evidence IMO in that book alone that at the least Ned Stark wasn't telling the whole story about Jon.

One little tidbit always stuck out to me and it happened very early in the first book: the finding of the dire wolves.

IIRC, it was Jon and Robb that found them, but it was Jon that pointed out there were five, one for each of the Stark children and that they were meant to have them.

With info coming along later throughout the books that many Targs had prophetic dreams and mystical tendencies, is it possible that the realization by Jon, could be an early indication of his own abilities along those lines. Of course, later on he has several dreams/visions along the way alluding to this... This first time just struck me in an odd way. Of all the people with the execution party present, it was Jon Snow that "put two and two ( or five and five rather) together. The fact that it was him, in that time at that place, I dunno struck me as important.

Perhaps I'm just obsessing on it heh. Regardless, I had never seen this discussed before so thought I would post it myself.

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Not only howland hold robb´s will, but if R+L=J is true, then i think there is a great chance that he also posses some letter writen by rhaegar where he legitimyzes jon as he true son.

Rhaegar can't legitimize Jon on his own. He'd need his father to do that. There is one theory that Rhaegar extorted a legitimizing decree from Aerys in exchange for his aid during the war, but I personally prefer the idea that he and Lyanna married, for the simple reason that Rhaegar would not have wanted to rely on his father in order for his child with Lyanna to be legitimate.

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<snip>

IIRC, it was Jon and Robb that found them, but it was Jon that pointed out there were five, one for each of the Stark children and that they were meant to have them.

With info coming along later throughout the books that many Targs had prophetic dreams and mystical tendencies, is it possible that the realization by Jon, could be an early indication of his own abilities along those lines. Of course, later on he has several dreams/visions along the way alluding to this... This first time just struck me in an odd way. Of all the people with the execution party present, it was Jon Snow that "put two and two ( or five and five rather) together. The fact that it was him, in that time at that place, I dunno struck me as important.

Perhaps I'm just obsessing on it heh. Regardless, I had never seen this discussed before so thought I would post it myself.

Apart from Bran, we don't have any other POV from characters present when they found the wolves so we can't really know what the others were thinking. I don't think that scene had anything to do with Targness. I think it was merely to highlight that Jon understand he was removed from the family by virtue of his (assumed) birth but still loved his siblings fiercely. Bran knew the sacrifice Jon was making when he pleaded the case for the Starks to be allowed to keep the wolves by refusing to identify as a Stark. The sixth direwolf found separate from the pack illustrates this in a different way. While Ghost was assumed to be a sibling of the other five wolves, he was still separated from them by space and silence, as though holding some sort of secret.

It also plays into what Jon later says about bastards having to grow up quicker. Part of growing up is understanding when personal sacrifices can be rewarding for others. Jon sacrificed by openly stating that he was not a true Stark -something that bothers him greatly - which allowed Bran and the others to be given permission to keep the wolves as pets. Of course, Jon got Ghost, but he didn't know Ghost existed when he made his case.

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Rhaegar can't legitimize Jon on his own. He'd need his father to do that. There is one theory that Rhaegar extorted a legitimizing decree from Aerys in exchange for his aid during the war, but I personally prefer the idea that he and Lyanna married, for the simple reason that Rhaegar would not have wanted to rely on his father in order for his child with Lyanna to be legitimate.

But how could Rhaegar and Lyanna get merried.

He was merried with Elia and couldnt have a second marriage.

Besides that, i dont think that the westerosi are familiar with divorce

Event they were merried, how could someone beleive this. Everyone who could know about it is probably deadm but for howland Reed.

A marriage needs witness, and who could say that it was present during a R+L marriage.

Even someone we dont knowm a new charachter, pops up saying that he was in the marriage, would all the other people believe. Probably not.

A ilke the letter or will theory better because we would have a paper written with Rhaegar´s words and signed with his seal in wax.

It wouldnt be someone telling Jon that he is Rhaegar´s Son, but it would Rhaegar himself telling him so

Nodoby could easily say it is a fake letter or will, as could easily say that the so-called witness is lying.

At most, someone would have to prove the letter or will is fake, what could be very hard.

Besides that, Rhaegar could tell other things in a letter or will. He could tell about his love for lyanna, he could tell how he felt about his father. maybe even some piece of advice for his sons, or to viserys and even Danyeris.

Of course, im sot sure Rhaegar and Lyana didnt get merried. I just dont know, and nobody knows ( i mean GRRM knows). Maybe they did.

I just like the letter or will theory better

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But how could Rhaegar and Lyanna get merried.

He was merried with Elia and couldnt have a second marriage.

Sure he could. Targs practiced polygamy in the past, remember?

Besides that, i dont think that the westerosi are familiar with divorce

Actually, it is possible to have marriages set aside. But there's no evidence that Rhaegar did that to Elia.

A ilke the letter or will theory better because we would have a paper written with Rhaegar´s words and signed with his seal in wax.

Rhaegar could've left a letter even if he did marry Lyanna, but it wouldn't legitimize Jon, not without the seal of the king.

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I forgot about Robb's will....probably because it hasn't been confirmed that he name Jon as his heir.

And he sent Maege Mormont to Howland Reed-who we believe can prove Jon's heritage.

I agree. Jon would take the Stark name and Winterfell if it was given to him by Robb. Also, Robb talked of giving gold to the NW for Jon, and we know that NW need money for food and to pay their debt to the Iron Bank.

It was confirmed wasn't it? I thought we saw (read) him write that Jon was his heir, and have his lords attendant swear to uphold it?

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It was confirmed wasn't it? I thought we saw (read) him write that Jon was his heir, and have his lords attendant swear to uphold it?

No we actually never know what he put in the will itself. What we get in the book is him discussing it with Catelyn before writing and signing it. From that discussion we know he wanted to name Jon and there is nothing to indicate that he changed his mind, but we never actually got the text verbatum.

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Reading the wiki of the Old Gods it says:

"Various actions, such as incest, kinslaying and Slavery, are considered offensive to the gods. while laws of hospitality are respected"

It doesn't say anything about polygamy :drool:

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Reading the wiki of the Old Gods it says:

"Various actions, such as incest, kinslaying and Slavery, are considered offensive to the gods. while laws of hospitality are respected"

It doesn't say anything about polygamy :drool:

And, Rhaegar probably married Elia before a septon(may be even the High SeOpton of KL). If he married Lyanna I am 100% sure he did it before a weirwood.

And I also agree with the statement that Howland Reed is the person we readers most want to see :D

He could be the mastermind behind the alluded Northern Conspiracy against the Boltons. :D

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