R+L=J v.31

[Alia of the knife]

My only issue with this train of thought, is the fact that we see no followers of the Old gods, (families in the North), engaging in polygamy. :grouphug:

My own individual read on that quote would be to understand by association as incest is forbidden, kinslaying, as well as slavery, that polygamy is up there too, especially as the only current examples of Targaryens engaging in the practice were bad Targaryens. :unsure:

[geogus]

And, Rhaegar probably married Elia before a septon(may be even the High SeOpton of KL). If he married Lyanna I am 100% sure he did it before a weirwood.

And I also agree with the statement that Howland Reed is the person we readers most want to see :D

He could be the mastermind behind the alluded Northern Conspiracy against the Boltons. :D

I agree that we all want to see good old howland reed, so he can tell us about Jons parantage

But what is this bolton conspiracy u talk about?

Am i missing something?

[sagaz]

I agree that we all want to see good old howland reed, so he can tell us about Jons parantage

But what is this bolton conspiracy u talk about?

Am i missing something?

Some northeners are apparently siding with the Boltons but really they aren't

use the search bar, type "northern conspiracy"... you're in for a treat!

[Zupoleon]

My only issue with this train of thought, is the fact that we see no followers of the Old gods, (families in the North), engaging in polygamy. :grouphug:

My own individual read on that quote would be to understand by association as incest is forbidden, kinslaying, as well as slavery, that polygamy is up there too, especially as the only current examples of Targaryens engaging in the practice were bad Targaryens. :unsure:

In the eyes of the old gods, yes. But it seems that most of Westeros looked the other way and / or tolerated the Targaryen practice of incest and polygamy. If we accept that position, then it seems to me that Rhaegar and the Targaryen family wouldn't suffer as much from his actions as Lyanna would have. It would be her reputation, and the Stark House that would be humiliated, especially in the North.

It will be interesting to see how Martin addresses / resolves that issue...

[geogus]

Some northeners are apparently siding with the Boltons but really they aren't

use the search bar, type "northern conspiracy"... you're in for a treat!

I know that, but i dont see what this has to do with R+L=J issue and even howlan reed, since he keeps hinding in his swamps doing nothing at all

[Alia of the knife]

In the eyes of the old gods, yes. But it seems that most of Westeros looked the other way and / or tolerated the Targaryen practice of incest and polygamy. If we accept that position, then it seems to me that Rhaegar and the Targaryen family wouldn't suffer as much from his actions as Lyanna would have. It would be her reputation, and the Stark House that would be humiliated, especially in the North.

It will be interesting to see how Martin addresses / resolves that issue...

Thats my thinking.

While polygamy does everything for Rhaegar, it does nothing for Lyanna, and being a follower of the Old gods, coming from a culture where the Old gods are still powerful and may be an actual presence in a very definite, metaphysical way, would be a slap in her face, her family and the North.

Lyanna is still a symbol of her people being the daughter of, for all intents and purposes, the true ruler of the North, no less than Elia of the Martells, and to be nothing more than the bound concubine of this Southron, Targaryen Prince whose own blood is tainted by incest, actually could be seen as an insult.

The North might ask if Rhaegar is good enough for her.

And as I said, the Tarygaryens that we currently know about who engaged in polygamy were not good Targaryens, and may have used polygamy as a deliberate insult as a statement of their power as they still had dragons.

Of course the Targaryens are Targaryen-centric, and probably couldn't imagine anyone not being honored to hand over their daughters.

[Zupoleon]

The North might ask if Rhaegar is good enough for her.

Well said. Perhaps, if as some speculate that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married under a weirwood tree in the tradition of the North, it might sway some of the opinion. Showing respect for their customs and honoring the old gods could go a long way in winning over the people...

[Scarlet Seastar]

I know that, but i dont see what this has to do with R+L=J issue and even howlan reed, since he keeps hinding in his swamps doing nothing at all

Howland Reed was the only one who came north with Ned after the incident at the Tower of Joy.

He's the only one(except for Bran and the weirwood network) who can prove/tell/reveal the true parentage of Jon Snow(which we think are Rhaegar and Lyanna).

Now, before the Red Wedding, Robb gave his will to Maege Mormont and sent her to Howland Reed(and in the will probably Jon is legitimized and named heir to Robb). We haven't heard from Maege or anyone about the fate of that party.

And in Dance, we were introduced to the new Wardens of the North-the Boltons.

In Dance, almost all of the northerners accepted the Boltons as their liege lords(except for the mountain clans, though I am not sure about their loyalty to Stannis). lady Dustin makes certain Reek/Theon(Ramsay's pet toy) know that she hates the Starks-which has caused many of us to think that it was faked, and that the northerners are planning something against the Boltons.

If Howland Reed holds proof that Jon is legitimate, he could gather the northerners behind Jon-the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna-he could inherit the North even though he'd be a Targ(that's why the Lannisters married Tyrion to Sansa in the first place).

I'm excluding Wyman Manderly of this because I think he's working on his own.

But even with Manderly-it could be a back up plan to find Rickon-just in case something happens to Jon.

And that's why Howland Reed is the most wanted man in Westeros! :D

On this:

Well said. Perhaps, if as some speculate that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married under a weirwood tree in the tradition of the North, it might sway some of the opinion. Showing respect for their customs and honoring the old gods could go a long way in winning over the people...

Not just the customs. I think the trick could be that if Elia and Rhaegar got married before a septon-they didn't get married before the Old Gods. So, technically, Rhaegar would be, for lack of a better word, a bachelor in their eyes-and I think may be Lyanna would only care about that. Like a loophole :D

[corbon]

Thats my thinking.

While polygamy does everything for Rhaegar, it does nothing for Lyanna, and being a follower of the Old gods, coming from a culture where the Old gods are still powerful and may be an actual presence in a very definite, metaphysical way, would be a slap in her face, her family and the North.

Lyanna is still a symbol of her people being the daughter of, for all intents and purposes, the true ruler of the North, no less than Elia of the Martells, and to be nothing more than the bound concubine of this Southron, Targaryen Prince whose own blood is tainted by incest, actually could be seen as an insult.

Sorry, but this needs to be called out.

This is nothing more or less than a fan beat-up. We have no information at all that polygamy is as outlawed or despised or anything similar in the traditions of the Old Gods.

There is no evidence at all that being a polygamous wife would be an insult or a slap in the face to Lyanna.

Or any of the rest...

This vast northern old gods being so 'set apart' from the seven, and northerners so much inherently better than southerners is overblown very badly here. Rickard made Southron alliances happily. Ned followed them up, and even built a Sept for his wife. If Catelyn is 'good enough' for Brandon/Rickon, and Robert 'good enough' for Lyanna, then Rhaegar is damn straight good enough for Lyanna. Heck, Robert is part Targ anyway!

The same goes for the theory about Septons not counting and Rhaegar effectively being a bachelor. Not impossible, but there is not the slightest indication of this - it just a fan beat-up.

The North might ask if Rhaegar is good enough for her.

And as I said, the Tarygaryens that we currently know about who engaged in polygamy were not good Targaryens, and may have used polygamy as a deliberate insult as a statement of their power as they still had dragons.

Of course the Targaryens are Targaryen-centric, and probably couldn't imagine anyone not being honored to hand over their daughters.

More cases of a beat-up made out of nothing.

We have two known polygamists:

- Aegon the Conqueror, nowhere considered a 'bad' or evil or cruel King, whose Polygamy was certainly not a deliberate insult to anyone.

- Maegor the Cruel, known as the Cruel because of harsh methods used to quell rebellions, and for executing some Grand Maesters (perhaps for good reason, we might guess, though we have no real idea) and some wives for failing to produce heirs (Henry VIII anyone?). Apart from the name there isn't any suggestion he was a bad king, or his polygamy was aimed as an insult - more likely he was looking for heirs and binding still very disparate peoples to the throne.

In addition we have GRRM's statement that 'there may have been more polygamists, he wasn;t sure' which indicates that not only might there be more than we know about but that its not a major factor in their history or personality - which it most certainly would be if it was used as a cultural weapon.

Sorry Alia, your posts are always entertaining and reasonable, but you do have a habit of extrapolating from extrapolations of extrapolations and forming theories of great depth from basically nothing. In this case I think you are backing some fairly serious allegations based on literally nothing at all.

There is no evidence or even suggestion that a polygamous marriage to Rhaegar would have been not good enough for Lyanna. Queen, even second Queen, is substantially higher than Great Lady. Nothing anywhere suggests the north is inherently anti-polygamy any more than any other place. Heck, less. At least the Septons are against polygamy apart from the Targs, but we dont even know that much about the north, just that it isn't the usual custom.

Interestingly, the only polygamist we actually see so far in Westeros is a northerner (though I agree, he's a poor example).

[The guy from the Vale]

:agree:

Actually, I don't see how polygamy is less respected in the North than the South. The Faith clearly forbids it (and had to be cowed into submission by the Targaryens over the issue), while we have no such taboo from the Old Gods. Incidentally, I think the wildling custom of 'stealing' wives makes polygamy inherently possible - although both wives have to agree to the situation, or the husband will soon be found with his throat slit.

[dragontamer]

Imo it doesn't matter whether Lyanna did marry Rhaegar or not or how he felt about it, being the second wife or if the North would deem Rhaegar good enough. Even if the marriage did happen there is zero chances that can be proven. What if Howland knows or Bran finds out... who would believe a "frog eater" and a crippled child who happens to be Jon's half brother... What matters is only what can be proven and especially what common people and lords are willing to believe.

As far as what the North thinks of polygamy I think it's safe to say they disapprove. There isn't any testimony of polygamy practised in Westeros by any other than Targaryens and they aren't Westerosi. It isn't about faith or gods, polygamy simply isn't part of their culture. I think we would have heard of at least one polygamous lord by now throughout history. With so importance laid on legitimate children, first born sons and heritage laws I think no one would risk taking several wives simultaneously.

[Dr. Pepper]

Interestingly, the only polygamist we actually see so far in Westeros is a northerner (though I agree, he's a poor example).

Do you mean Craster? Now that I think of it, no one really remarks on the fact that he has multiple wives, only that he marries his daughters. At least I don't recall Jon remarking on it. Do you recall if any of those who are southerners remark upon the polygamy?

[Ygrain]

As far as what the North thinks of polygamy I think it's safe to say they disapprove. There isn't any testimony of polygamy practised in Westeros by any other than Targaryens and they aren't Westerosi. It isn't about faith or gods, polygamy simply isn't part of their culture. I think we would have heard of at least one polygamous lord by now throughout history. With so importance laid on legitimate children, first born sons and heritage laws I think no one would risk taking several wives simultaneously.

I don't think so. Not practicing something and being adverse to a practice are not the same thing, especially if the said practice includes the royal family.

[dragontamer]

I don't think so. Not practicing something and being adverse to a practice are not the same thing, especially if the said practice includes the royal family.

True. But then the Starks aren't opposed to the Faith, does this mean that they believe in the Seven? No. To tolerate and accept something others do doesn't mean you accept it for yourself. And as lond as there is no record at all of a polygamous Westerosi I think it's unlikely that they practiced polygamy.

[Serie]

Do you mean Craster? Now that I think of it, no one really remarks on the fact that he has multiple wives, only that he marries his daughters. At least I don't recall Jon remarking on it. Do you recall if any of those who are southerners remark upon the polygamy?

I guess that once you come upon the fact that the guy marries and has children with his OWN children, polygamy is hardly remarkable either you're used to it or not... :unsure: besides, the westerosi are under the impression that the wildlings are savages anyway so probably polygamy (and other "filthy" practices... ) was a bit expected by such "scums".

[sagaz]

This vast northern old gods being so 'set apart' from the seven, and northerners so much inherently better than southerners is overblown very badly here. Rickard made Southron alliances happily. Ned followed them up, and even built a Sept for his wife. If Catelyn is 'good enough' for Brandon/Rickon, and Robert 'good enough' for Lyanna, then Rhaegar is damn straight good enough for Lyanna. Heck, Robert is part Targ anyway!

In the context you're describing it (Rickard Stark southron ambitions) I agree; but the joining of two people who possibly could produce dragonlords wargs (so, so much power in a family) I don't know...

Torrhen and the ancient lords of Winterfell wouldn't be pleased

[Budj]

The more I think on it the more I don't want Jon to be legitimate. I think it would be interesting if he was STILL a bastard and doing his thing. I mean it would be cool if he was...but just as cool if not maybe cooler if he isn't.

[Budj]

In the context you're describing it (Rickard Stark southron ambitions) I agree; but the joining of two people who possibly could produce dragonlords wargs (so, so much power in a family) I don't know...

Torrhen and the ancient lords of Winterfell wouldn't be pleased

They might be pleased considering he is Stark through and through :) That means Starks with dragons ;)

[sagaz]

They might be pleased considering he is Stark through and through :) That means Starks with dragons ;)

yeah! but it's very dangerous... and don't forget the Targs little problem with sanity...

I'd like to think that Starks + Targs = KABOOOOM!!!

the end of the known world.

(it suits very well Martin's comic fanboy origins)

[HarryCrackpotter]

I have been lurking for a while in this forun, but this my first post. Sorry if it may already been discussed.

One idea that have been in my mind for a while concearning Elia approval is that she had a more active part of the hole affair. And I don't mean like consenting that Raeghar had a concubine, but been a part of their love triangle.

The reasons I think that are:

1-We know that dornish people are more sexually open.

2-Her brother, Oberin was bissexual.

3- Oberin's paramour was interested in Cersei joinning then.

I don't know how Lyanna would react to that, but I think that she may have open ideas regarding that.

Look at other strong femele characters like Danny. It is know that she can have pleasure with other women.

Cersei also had her moments whith Taena. I think that Lyanna and Cersei are more alike that we would like. Cersei many times think that she was supposed to be born a man. Lyanna was a figther, and a good one, as we know from the KOLT episode.

Im not implying that they are masculine, but that as strong women they dont see thenselves as submissive wives. They have very open and modern ideas.

Perhaps Raeghar was the luckiest guy in the 7 kingdoms.