R+L=J v.31

[Sinslash]

First, there weren't three KG at ToJ from the very beginning, at least Hightower was still in KL when Brandon and Rickard were murdered, which was after Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna. Dayne, who was most probably assigned as his personal bodyguard, probably was with him all along, and Hightower, with or without Whent, joined them only later, under unknown circumstances.

KG had nothing to do with arranging Viserys' escape - Aerys himself had him and Rhaella sent to Dragonstone for safety, while refusing to do the same for Elia. And, once Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead, Viserys was not a prince but king, in which case the KG were duty-bound to leave ToJ and go to him ASAP, since this was their primary vow, to protect the king. There were three of them, so they could easily fulfill this condition by sending only one or two of their number to Viserys, while the rest would guard ToJ.

as these 3 KG could not teleport (from Dorne to Dragonstone) or are not psychic (to know whether or not Viserys had a KG with him), i think that unless they were specifically ordered to leave ToJ and go protect Viserys, they were duty-bound to stay at their post. the 3 KG had their orders and the other 4 had theirs. Even if the other 4 failed, the 3 KG still had to do their duties.

i'm not sure about the exact sequence now, but if for example Joffrey and the KG protecting him had died with Arys Oakheart still alive, would he be "duty-bound" to go to Tommen ASAP while he was in-charge of Myrcella in Dorne? Would he leave Myrcella vulnerable even if he knew, for example, that Tommen had no KG, considering that KL is not exactly right next to Dorne?

[Ygrain]

as these 3 KG could not teleport (from Dorne to Dragonstone) or are not psychic (to know whether or not Viserys had a KG with him), i think that unless they were specifically ordered to leave ToJ and go protect Viserys, they were duty-bound to stay at their post. the 3 KG had their orders and the other 4 had theirs. Even if the other 4 failed, the 3 KG still had to do their duties.

i'm not sure about the exact sequence now, but if for example Joffrey and the KG protecting him had died with Arys Oakheart still alive, would he be "duty-bound" to go to Tommen ASAP while he was in-charge of Myrcella in Dorne? Would he leave Myrcella vulnerable even if he knew, for example, that Tommen had no KG, considering that KL is not exactly right next to Dorne?

If you re-read the dialogue in Ned's dream, it is rather obvious that they are familiar with the recent events: they know that Aerys and Aegon are dead, and that Viserys is at Dragonstone with only Willem Darry. And, while the KG are supposed to carry out their other duties, as well, their primary duty is to be with the king. We know from Jaime's PoV that there always must be at least on KG with the king, except for the time when the seven KG meet to confer, and that only for the shortest time necessary. The protection of the king takes priority over everything, so, in your hypothetical example, yes - Arys would have to leave Myrcella.

[Dr. Pepper]

as these 3 KG could not teleport (from Dorne to Dragonstone) or are not psychic (to know whether or not Viserys had a KG with him), i think that unless they were specifically ordered to leave ToJ and go protect Viserys, they were duty-bound to stay at their post. the 3 KG had their orders and the other 4 had theirs. Even if the other 4 failed, the 3 KG still had to do their duties.

The first duty of the KG is to protect the king. The king may give them other orders to protect other people and those other people may in turn give them orders, but they are still sworn to protect the king. Once the king dies, his orders become obsolete because there will be a new king to protect. So, for example, if Aerys gave the KG orders to stand in a corner for 30 days but he died on day 20, the KG would be obligated to give up Aerys orders and go protect Rhaegar and receive orders from him as he's the new king. The KG knew that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and they knew where Viserys was and yet they stayed at the TOJ with the explanation that they were following their KG vows. The logical assumption to be made here is that Jon was the new king.

i'm not sure about the exact sequence now, but if for example Joffrey and the KG protecting him had died with Arys Oakheart still alive, would he be "duty-bound" to go to Tommen ASAP while he was in-charge of Myrcella in Dorne? Would he leave Myrcella vulnerable even if he knew, for example, that Tommen had no KG, considering that KL is not exactly right next to Dorne?

Yes, if Oakheart learned that Joffrey and the six remaining KG were dead, he'd be duty-bound to leave Dorne to go to Tommen and receive new orders. He could, of course, take Myrcella with him or find other suitable protection for her seeing as she's now Tommen's heir. But ensuring a KG is with Tommen would become the primary concern.

[Dragonfish]

Regarding the Myrcella/Tommen analogy: a better analogy would be one where Myrcella was being guarded by three Kingsguard. In that situation, if Tommen found himself without Kingsguard protection, wouldn't it make sense for at least one of the Kingsguard members guarding Myrcella to go to his aid? Wouldn't it seem odd if they all insisted they had to stay with Myrcella?

[Erudain]

One good question is....after HR/Bran/whatever confirms that R+L = J....and Jon actually accepts it...how will they prove it to the 7 kingdoms?

Maybe some sort of indisputable proof in Lyanna's tomb? a lovely little dragon dropping and licking Jon's face?

Because you need something solid to back up that argument, who will believe HR? (lifelong supported of the Starks) or Bran? (a Stark himself).

Most likely all will say "you are trying to get this bastard to the throne using lies".

Even when provided with all the clues we know as facts (ToJ, KG, Blue Roses, etc) maybe some of the nobles/court will connect the dots and find that the evidence is enough (like we did) but most will probably ignore them to justify their claims.

Besides how do you convince the commonfolk that this guy is the heir to the throne?

[Serie]

One good question is....after HR/Bran/whatever confirms that R+L = J....and Jon actually accepts it...how will they prove it to the 7 kingdoms?

Maybe some sort of indisputable proof in Lyanna's tomb? a lovely little dragon dropping and licking Jon's face?

Because you need something solid to back up that argument, who will believe HR? (lifelong supported of the Starks) or Bran? (a Stark himself).

Most likely all will say "you are trying to get this bastard to the throne using lies".

Even when provided with all the clues we know as facts (ToJ, KG, Blue Roses, etc) maybe some of the nobles/court will connect the dots and find that the evidence is enough (like we did) but most will probably ignore them to justify their claims.

Besides how do you convince the commonfolk that this guy is the heir to the throne?

well you gave the answer yourself. What a better proof than a dragon egg in Lyanna's tomb! but I don't think anyone's paying attention to what the common folk think...it's more like what the lords will think. And the lords will choose the one who serves best their interest, not the one who has the best claim (we've seen that happening before). Besides, if Jon's real identity is revealed at the same time the Others are attacking the Wall, I think that noone's gonna play the Nancy Drew but support the one who offers to get rid of them instead.

[butterbumps!]

One good question is....after HR/Bran/whatever confirms that R+L = J....and Jon actually accepts it...how will they prove it to the 7 kingdoms?

Maybe some sort of indisputable proof in Lyanna's tomb? a lovely little dragon dropping and licking Jon's face?

Because you need something solid to back up that argument, who will believe HR? (lifelong supported of the Starks) or Bran? (a Stark himself).

Most likely all will say "you are trying to get this bastard to the throne using lies".

Even when provided with all the clues we know as facts (ToJ, KG, Blue Roses, etc) maybe some of the nobles/court will connect the dots and find that the evidence is enough (like we did) but most will probably ignore them to justify their claims.

Besides how do you convince the commonfolk that this guy is the heir to the throne?

To be honest, I think the unlikelihood of the public (smallfolk and nobles) accepting this is actually a nice thing. For one, I don't know that Jon will want to embrace his Targ identity such that he uses it to hold titles. Even if knowing that Rhaeger is his father is something he will find personally satisfying (which is still a big question), I don't think he's going to try to press any claims based on blood, or at least ones he has had no connection to. If he becomes king, I kind of feel that it will be because of his actions, rather than a Targ claim, that puts him there.

[rmholt]

People's opinions are just that. If you have had a well thought out opinion for a long time based on facts in the book that does not negate equally well thought out opinions also based upon facts. There are only a few indisputable facts in this whole house of cards and they allow for a variety of interpretations. Repetition of the same theory in response to new ideas is not interesting.

Marie

[Alia of the knife]

Jons arc could be complicated and unexpected.

In "Dune," another work very similar to this one, the "hero" Paul Maudib actually became the thing he hated in order control his empire.

(His sister, St. Alia of the Knifes fate was dark as well).

Arya?

One of the prevailing themes of that book is that the seeds of rebellion are planted in every revolution, because later, Paul would face rebellion himself until his son solidified Atreides rule.

Jon could be the same.

Jon could come to the throne by default, but in order to rebuild the Kingdom and restore order, he will most likley have to become more feared than loved, particularly after his resurrection, he may be a very different person.

Another theme is "the Sleeper must Awaken" which is very similar to Tarygaryen "Waking the Dragon"

I think both speak to themes of realizing and becoming who you truly are.

[rmholt]

Jons arc could be complicated and unexpected.

In "Dune," another work very similar to this one, the "hero" Paul Maudib actually became the thing he hated in order control his empire.

(His sister, St. Alia of the Knifes fate was dark as well).

Arya?

One of the prevailing themes of that book is that the seeds of rebellion are planted in every revolution, because later, Paul would face rebellion himself until his son solidified Atreides rule.

Jon could be the same.

Jon could come to the throne by default, but in order to rebuild the Kingdom and restore order, he will most likley have to become more feared than loved, particularly after his resurrection, he may be a very different person.

Another theme is "the Sleeper must Awaken" which is very similar to Tarygaryen "Waking the Dragon"

I think both speak to themes of realizing and becoming who you truly are.

I like this as I have not been happy with the idea that one person with a finite rule would solve everything.

[sagaz]

One good question is....after HR/Bran/whatever confirms that R+L = J....and Jon actually accepts it...how will they prove it to the 7 kingdoms?

Maybe some sort of indisputable proof in Lyanna's tomb? a lovely little dragon dropping and licking Jon's face?

Because you need something solid to back up that argument, who will believe HR? (lifelong supported of the Starks) or Bran? (a Stark himself).

[...]

Besides how do you convince the commonfolk that this guy is the heir to the throne?

It's Jon with a Dragon!!! as we were discussing yesterday (calling Martin comics fan origins) If he can dominate a dragon -through warging, riding or wathever- for everybody to see, maybe some will believe that he has something to do with Targs...and his Starkness it's out of question, so someone would make 2+2 (or R+L!!!)

[...]

Jon could be the same.

Jon could come to the throne by default, but in order to rebuild the Kingdom and restore order, he will most likley have to become more feared than loved, particularly after his resurrection, he may be a very different person.

Another theme is "the Sleeper must Awaken" which is very similar to Tarygaryen "Waking the Dragon"

I think both speak to themes of realizing and becoming who you truly are.

And if he can warg a dragon he'll be "the most dangerous man in westeros" LITERALLY

[Alia of the knife]

I like this as I have not been happy with the idea that one person with a finite rule would solve everything.

Yeah, it never really works out that way.

[Sinslash]

Thanks for the explanation guys (about the 3KG) but it's still a bit sketchy to me (just a teeny weeny bit now). 3KG reshuffling themselves in the middle of a war for at least one of them to go pursue a boy in a separate island and risking a lot? Plus the news may have come to them a bit late, or they may have just realized it right then and there when they saw Stark still alive and coming for them (and that may be when they knew all was really lost). Did they really know already by the time Ned recited to them what happened to the others? Or did they just took his word for it and responded with a "but we swore an oath" and stuff. I don't suppose they were pretty updated. Even after Jaime killed the king (which apparently they knew of), KL was bound to still have some protection and Dragonstone too. But ToJ had only them.

Anyway I think I'm just running in circles here, so no need to expound further LOL guess only GRRM can reveal the truth.

[oogieboogie]

I apologize if this has come up before, I am new to the forums and there is way too much for me to catch up on. But one thing that has always stood out to me, even just the first time reading thru the books was Ashara killing herself. It seemed very non-Martin-esque. Sure there are plenty of reasons she would do it. But I always felt like there was a good chance she had a helping hand in her demise. Also an email I saw from Martin recently (I can't remember where I saw it otherwise I would quote it here) said that Ashara was very close to Elia. So... maybe someone made the decision that Ashara had to be silenced to protect Jon. I can't imagine Ned doing it, but maybe the guilt of him letting it happen is why he wouldn't let anyone speak her name at Winterfell.

This of course is merely just me throwing a wack theory out there, but thats the fun stuff!

[Sinslash]

BTW. "warg" is an evil wolf, or maybe a person who can become a wolf. Some Freys talk of Robb during the Red Wedding as if he was some werewolf of some sort. I would say "skinchanging" would be the appropriate term for creatures other than wolves.

[Sinslash]

I apologize if this has come up before, I am new to the forums and there is way too much for me to catch up on. But one thing that has always stood out to me, even just the first time reading thru the books was Ashara killing herself. It seemed very non-Martin-esque. Sure there are plenty of reasons she would do it. But I always felt like there was a good chance she had a helping hand in her demise. Also an email I saw from Martin recently (I can't remember where I saw it otherwise I would quote it here) said that Ashara was very close to Elia. So... maybe someone made the decision that Ashara had to be silenced to protect Jon. I can't imagine Ned doing it, but maybe the guilt of him letting it happen is why he wouldn't let anyone speak her name at Winterfell.

This of course is merely just me throwing a wack theory out there, but thats the fun stuff!

Or she could still be alive and became Septa Lemore (I heard that theory somewhere here but not yet sure if I agree with it myself).

Welcome, I would say, though I'm relatively new too. (By my posts, it's probably pretty obvious LOL)

[Dragonfish]

Thanks for the explanation guys (about the 3KG) but it's still a bit sketchy to me (just a teeny weeny bit now). 3KG reshuffling themselves in the middle of a war for at least one of them to go pursue a boy in a separate island and risking a lot?

He wasn't just a boy, he was (supposedly) their king. Their job is to defend the king, or die trying. There's no loophole in their vows that says, "It's ok not to defend the king if it's too hard."

Plus the news may have come to them a bit late

Judging by their lack of surprise at Ned's news, I'd guess that they already knew everything. But this doesn't really matter. Even after Ned tells them what happened at King's Landing, they still insist that their place is at that tower.

Even after Jaime killed the king (which apparently they knew of), KL was bound to still have some protection and Dragonstone too. But ToJ had only them.

What does this matter? The rules state that at least one member of the Kingsguard must be with the king at all times, except when they are all convening for meetings. They are required to at least send one of their number to Viserys, if he is the true king. Anything less is simply a dereliction of duty.

BTW. "warg" is an evil wolf, or maybe a person who can become a wolf. Some Freys talk of Robb during the Red Wedding as if he was some werewolf of some sort. I would say "skinchanging" would be the appropriate term for creatures other than wolves.

In the world of ASoIaF, a "skinchanger" is a person who can enter the mind of an animal, and a "warg" is a person who skinchanges into a wolf or a dog.

[Sinslash]

during war time i would think they'd assume some people are still defending the royal family.

their lack of surprise could be because they've expected the worse now that ned was coming for them.

yeah a kg should be with the king at all times but how would they know the king (lets say, viserys) didn't have a kg? barristan was still alive was he not? possibly the first they heard about viserys escaping was from ned. they (or one of them) could have gone to him if ned hadn't killed them. and if they were preparing to go to viserys for example (i would think its fairly recent news to them), the news of ned coming for them would make them postpone pursuing viserys to stay and help defend toj from ned. ned had 7, toj only 3, and if one leaves (assuming he could without being caught by incoming ned's party), there'd only be 2 left to defend toj.

i do get your point. its just that abandoning something to protect something else far away, didn't seem as easy as we wish it would be, and considering the circumstances and risks, not very wise.

sorry im on ipad right now, capitalization is such a hassle...

[Dr. Pepper]

during war time i would think they'd assume some people are still defending the royal family.

their lack of surprise could be because they've expected the worse now that ned was coming for them.

yeah a kg should be with the king at all times but how would they know the king (lets say, viserys) didn't have a kg? barristan was still alive was he not? possibly the first they heard about viserys escaping was from ned. they (or one of them) could have gone to him if ned hadn't killed them. and if they were preparing to go to viserys for example (i would think its fairly recent news to them), the news of ned coming for them would make them postpone pursuing viserys to stay and help defend toj from ned. ned had 7, toj only 3, and if one leaves (assuming he could without being caught by incoming ned's party), there'd only be 2 left to defend toj.

i do get your point. its just that abandoning something to protect something else far away, didn't seem as easy as we wish it would be, and considering the circumstances and risks, not very wise.

sorry im on ipad right now, capitalization is such a hassle...

It's possible they could have thought or hoped that Barristan was with Viserys, but improbable. After all, Ned specifically told them that Viserys was without KG as it was only Darry who went with Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone as protector. They could have gone to Dragonstone, Ned certainly appeared to have given them this choice. But they didn't go stating that they, as KG, were exactly where they were supposed to be.

As cold as it sounds, it wouldn't matter if Ned stated outright that he was going to kill his sister in a brutal, awful way. Any orders they were given by Aerys or Rhaegar were null the moment they discovered they were dead and their obligation would be to protect the new king. Doesn't matter how far away that king is or how perilous the journey or if they will surely die in route. They are still obligated to go, or at least ensure one of them is sent to Dragonstone. The vows are such that they are sworn to die in service to protect the king. Dying in route is still dying in service.

[Ygrain]

during war time i would think they'd assume some people are still defending the royal family.

their lack of surprise could be because they've expected the worse now that ned was coming for them.

yeah a kg should be with the king at all times but how would they know the king (lets say, viserys) didn't have a kg? barristan was still alive was he not? possibly the first they heard about viserys escaping was from ned. they (or one of them) could have gone to him if ned hadn't killed them. and if they were preparing to go to viserys for example (i would think its fairly recent news to them), the news of ned coming for them would make them postpone pursuing viserys to stay and help defend toj from ned. ned had 7, toj only 3, and if one leaves (assuming he could without being caught by incoming ned's party), there'd only be 2 left to defend toj.

i do get your point. its just that abandoning something to protect something else far away, didn't seem as easy as we wish it would be, and considering the circumstances and risks, not very wise.

sorry im on ipad right now, capitalization is such a hassle...

You're not getting the timelines right. When Ned arrives at ToJ, the war is over, and even before that, the last residue of resistance was the siege of Storms' End. By that time, Viserys and Rhaella were already at Dragonstone and the fate and actions of the other KG were known fairly well, since Trident was already some time ago and the KG with Rhaegar were the main players there. All the KG at ToJ needed to do was travel to Starfall, which is a perfectly safe trip because through Dorne, which is unaffected by the war, and then take a ship to Dragonstone from there. If Ned did catch them in the middle of preparations to leave, defending a minor objective while their primary goal was unfulfilled doesn't seem the right course of action. Seven versus three was still very risky and losing the fight would mean leaving Viserys without protection because of something of minor importance. IMHO, since one of them HAD to go to Viserys, he would leave ASAP and the other two would sacrifice themselves to delay Ned. But, as Dragonfish has pointed out, none of the news they receive seem to be really new for them, so they did know even before Ned arrived.

ETA: Besides, when Ned enquires about all those places where their KG duty would compel them to be at, they make pretty clear that their KG duty is at ToJ