R+L=J v.31

[Hermanelvingson]

While lurking through all the R+L=J-theories, and also a thread about how the readers, characters, and Jon, will find out about this, i realized something.

What if, right after the tourney at Harrenhall in the year of the false spring, where Lyanna and Rhaegar supposedly fell in love, they went to the Isle of Faces in the Gods Eye, and had a secret sneak-marriage under the weirwood trees.

The witnesses to this marriage would be one or more of the Stark-brothers and maybe Howland Reed (who might have been the one to escort them there).

And now when Bran is hooked up to the weirnet with Bloodraven, he too might get to witness this marriage, but without realizing what it means.

I don't really know where I want to get by this theory, just throwing it out there!

[Serie]

While lurking through all the R+L=J-theories, and also a thread about how the readers, characters, and Jon, will find out about this, i realized something.

What if, right after the tourney at Harrenhall in the year of the false spring, where Lyanna and Rhaegar supposedly fell in love, they went to the Isle of Faces in the Gods Eye, and had a secret sneak-marriage under the weirwood trees.

The witnesses to this marriage would be one or more of the Stark-brothers and maybe Howland Reed (who might have been the one to escort them there).

And now when Bran is hooked up to the weirnet with Bloodraven, he too might get to witness this marriage, but without realizing what it means.

I don't really know where I want to get by this theory, just throwing it out there!

I've heard of that theory before and I'm so amazed you (as well as some other people in the past) thought it all by yourself! to me the Isle of Faces was the equivalent of some tropical island with a bit of a religious meaning and not the romantic place I'd choose for a wedding.... but still, yes this makes sense even though, if you're asking for my opinion, there aren't really much clues on this one. to be honest... no clues at all! plus, just to provide some food for thought there, people speculate that Benjen knew about, or witnessed the marriage and that's why he left for the Wall :)

[LadyMary]

While lurking through all the R+L=J-theories, and also a thread about how the readers, characters, and Jon, will find out about this, i realized something.

What if, right after the tourney at Harrenhall in the year of the false spring, where Lyanna and Rhaegar supposedly fell in love, they went to the Isle of Faces in the Gods Eye, and had a secret sneak-marriage under the weirwood trees.

The witnesses to this marriage would be one or more of the Stark-brothers and maybe Howland Reed (who might have been the one to escort them there).

And now when Bran is hooked up to the weirnet with Bloodraven, he too might get to witness this marriage, but without realizing what it means.

I don't really know where I want to get by this theory, just throwing it out there!

I think you're on to something. I have wondered if after Rhaegar kidnapped eloped with Lyanna, they were secretly wed Northern-style before a weirwood. The Isle of Faces is not far from Harrenhal where they met and one of the few places in the South that still has weirwood trees in abundance. I think it would have been witnessed by at least one of Rhaegar's close friends and King's Guard (and unbeknownst to them by Bloodraven), but I doubt any of Lyanna's brothers would have been there - or Howland Reed (that would be an act of betrayal against his liege Lord). However, I speculate that part of the reason for Benjen joining the Nights Watch had to do with his guilt over helping Lyanna elope with Rhaegar, which contributed to the untimely deaths of Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna. If so, then Bran could potentially see it, ask Bloodraven about it and learn the truth.

[Budj]

Bloodraven seems to get off on being withholding....of information... If it serves his purpose he will tell Bran - just like how he wanted Jon to continue doing his thing and swore Sam not to tell Jon about Bran. I'm surprised BR hasn't mentioned it yet which is why I think he is waiting to mention it for timing purposes.

[Zupoleon]

just to provide some food for thought there, people speculate that Benjen knew about, or witnessed the marriage and that's why he left for the Wall :)

While most assume that Howland Reed will be the one to shed some light on the events at the ToJ, that perspective probably won't tell us much about the circumstances under which Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off in the first place. I'd be interested to see if Benjen (assuming he's still alive) would be the one to give us that perspective, based on the above theory. That would definitely settle many an argument...

[richard_ba]

if Rhaegal was white, it would be a big thrownaway, however Danny has a white Dragon, which I presume is going to be used by Jon

[Alia of the knife]

He in his own way loved the idea of her, never the real woman.

I think in his own way Robert did love Lyanna. I mean his last thought was of Lyanna as he was dieing 16 years later.

I think you both have a point.

But, for someone who is as superficial as we've been led to believe as Robert is, holding on to Lyannas memory, and emotionally so for sixteen years, is a long time.

Since Martin has claimed Robert wasn't such a bad guy, this may be another "keep reading" situation.

[yolkboy]

in Braavos, arya finds the FM house of black and white. what colour was the front door? where is that bit in the books, and the bit where shes looking at the many faces symbols?

OOPS WRONG THREAD SORRY!

[Edd fetch me the boo box]

Definitive evidence for R+L=J was, for me in the following lines.

Clash of Kings, toward the end. I'm not sure what the exact page is, but Jon thinks before he executes Ygritte after he captures her:

"He could give her a quick, clean death, at least. He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?"

Shortly after he can't kill her and lets her walk free. Now although he had Eddard Stark in mind while thinking this, I believe its an indirect reference at how much he's not like Eddard, and since Rhaegar seemed to be very chivalrous, and I wouldn't see him killing a woman. I think if it was his duty, Eddard would kill a woman, since duty, for him, trumps all else.

Later on, Jon says he couldn't kill her because he couldn't see any evil in her. Somehow I feel Rhaegar would react similarly.

[Ygrain]

Definitive evidence for R+L=J was, for me in the following lines.

Clash of Kings, toward the end. I'm not sure what the exact page is, but Jon thinks before he executes Ygritte after he captures her:

"He could give her a quick, clean death, at least. He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?"

Shortly after he can't kill her and lets her walk free. Now although he had Eddard Stark in mind while thinking this, I believe its an indirect reference at how much he's not like Eddard, and since Rhaegar seemed to be very chivalrous, and I wouldn't see him killing a woman. I think if it was his duty, Eddard would kill a woman, since duty, for him, trumps all else.

Later on, Jon says he couldn't kill her because he couldn't see any evil in her. Somehow I feel Rhaegar would react similarly.

While I agree that the "wasn't he?" part is definitely GRRM's hint that he is NOT Ned's son (and I can totally see him chuckling while writing this), we have seen Ned time and again placing love, family and compassion ABOVE duty. Dealing a death strike personally, on someone who has committed a crime, is one thing, killing an innocent person another. It doesn't matter that Ygritte was female, IMHO, Jon had the very same problem when the wildlings demanded that he should kill the old man whom Ygritte finally killed. He wouldn't strike without a cause, and neither would Ned. - Neither would Rhaegar, probably, but we haven't had his PoV and can't really say.

[Ribupr]

I don't know if this has been mentioned (because I don't want to read every post) but......

They said PtwP would be born amidst salt and smoke. Most people think it is because Jon's would was smoking and Bowen Marsh's tears were the salt, when they were stabbing him.

I always though of it as Lyanna crying when Ned and his men fought the Kingsguard, and the smoke from when he burned and tore down the tower.

I think that makes far more sense than the stabbing being the catalyst. If this has been posted my bad.

[FrozenFire3]

Ok, this has probably been already mentioned (so forgive me if it has ^_^), but I'm doing a re-read of ASoIaF and whilst reading the prologue of AGoT, I noticed this:

"The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold."

Instead, when Jon is stabbed in ADwD:

"He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking."

Now, I may be wrong but... the two situations are very similar (it's freezing cold) and yet there is a clear difference here between steam and smoke... just saying lol :P

[Serie]

Ok, this has probably been already mentioned (so forgive me if it has ^_^), but I'm doing a re-read of ASoIaF and whilst reading the prologue of AGoT, I noticed this:

"The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold."

Instead, when Jon is stabbed in ADwD:

"He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking."

Now, I may be wrong but... the two situations are very similar (it's freezing cold) and yet there is a clear difference here between steam and smoke... just saying lol :P

true, and the only occasion where a wound was "smoking" (correct me if wrong) was when describing the dragons' wounds.

[Dr. Pepper]

Ok, this has probably been already mentioned (so forgive me if it has ^_^), but I'm doing a re-read of ASoIaF and whilst reading the prologue of AGoT, I noticed this:

"The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold."

Instead, when Jon is stabbed in ADwD:

"He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking."

Now, I may be wrong but... the two situations are very similar (it's freezing cold) and yet there is a clear difference here between steam and smoke... just saying lol :P

I think the clear difference here is that in the AGOT prologue, someone is being observed while being stabbed in the cold while another is looking at his own wounds after being stabbed. Though this difference in word choice is quite interesting, I think it's reasonable that Will would describe something he was seeing at a distance one way (and a bit more accurately) while Jon is describing something he is acutely feeling; the fiery hot pain from a dagger in the gut might lead one to associate smoke with steam. I really do think Martin was trolling us in that scene just to get as many salt and smoke references as he could.

[three-eyed monkey]

Ok, this has probably been already mentioned (so forgive me if it has ^_^), but I'm doing a re-read of ASoIaF and whilst reading the prologue of AGoT, I noticed this:

"The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold."

Instead, when Jon is stabbed in ADwD:

"He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking."

Now, I may be wrong but... the two situations are very similar (it's freezing cold) and yet there is a clear difference here between steam and smoke... just saying lol :P

Could just be down to different pov? Will says tom-ae-to Jon says tom-a-to. (Hard to put that in writing but you know the saying.)

[Ribupr]

While I agree that the "wasn't he?" part is definitely GRRM's hint that he is NOT Ned's son (and I can totally see him chuckling while writing this), we have seen Ned time and again placing love, family and compassion ABOVE duty. Dealing a death strike personally, on someone who has committed a crime, is one thing, killing an innocent person another. It doesn't matter that Ygritte was female, IMHO, Jon had the very same problem when the wildlings demanded that he should kill the old man whom Ygritte finally killed. He wouldn't strike without a cause, and neither would Ned. - Neither would Rhaegar, probably, but we haven't had his PoV and can't really say.

Thank you for making me laugh aloud. The picture of GRRM typing and laughing all evil like and shit is gonna stick with me for a long while. (and now that scene is completely ruined for me).

[Alia of the knife]

Definitive evidence for R+L=J was, for me in the following lines.

Clash of Kings, toward the end. I'm not sure what the exact page is, but Jon thinks before he executes Ygritte after he captures her:

"He could give her a quick, clean death, at least. He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?"

Shortly after he can't kill her and lets her walk free. Now although he had Eddard Stark in mind while thinking this, I believe its an indirect reference at how much he's not like Eddard, and since Rhaegar seemed to be very chivalrous, and I wouldn't see him killing a woman. I think if it was his duty, Eddard would kill a woman, since duty, for him, trumps all else.

Later on, Jon says he couldn't kill her because he couldn't see any evil in her. Somehow I feel Rhaegar would react similarly.

A more direct example of this is if Lyanna was the KotLT,(and I think she was), and Rhaegar caught her but let her go, protecting her secret from his Father which surely would have led to her death.

[Budj]

In regards to "smoking" vs "steaming" I think there is a distinction. At the very least I think it is a hint to Jon being a dragon aka "secret Targ". If the only time a wound has ever been described as smoking is Drogon's wound and then Jon's wound is described as smoking then I think it's plausible to read into this. One could argue that it has something to do with the prophecy (I have no idea), but I do suspect the word was picked to describe Jon's wound on purpose - at least a subtle hint to his heritage.

[Lord Manwoody]

Can someone help me with this quote?

"She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart right out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so much like a younger version of his own. If the God's frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? 'Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?'" (AGOT)

In this scene Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard, how does this makes sense with the fact that the KG was trying to save him?

As posted previously, it could be he was referring to Jon having to live as a bastard.

Of course, if Jon is truly the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, what is he if not a bastard? To my knowledge, they weren't married.

Or, perhaps the key is the "why did they fill men with such lusts". Maybe he is thinking that Rhaegar's lust for Lyanna is what set off this chain of events. Against better judgment, he had to have Lyanna Stark.

[Zupoleon]

Or, perhaps the key is the "why did they fill men with such lusts". Maybe he is thinking that Rhaegar's lust for Lyanna is what set off this chain of events. Against better judgment, he had to have Lyanna Stark.

I think Ned asks that question in a more general sense, especially considering the context. He's about to ask Littlefinger about Robert's bastards, and his thoughts went to "his own" bastard in the moment...