R+L=J v.31

[Ygrain]

As posted previously, it could be he was referring to Jon having to live as a bastard.

Of course, if Jon is truly the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, what is he if not a bastard? To my knowledge, they weren't married.

Or, perhaps the key is the "why did they fill men with such lusts". Maybe he is thinking that Rhaegar's lust for Lyanna is what set off this chain of events. Against better judgment, he had to have Lyanna Stark.

If Jon is a bastard, then the KG have no business staying at ToJ after the death of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon, since Viserys is the next in the succession line and their KG vows bind them to go to him ASAP. Regardless of Rhaegar's previous orders, at least one of them was bound to have left for Dragonstone, but didn't, and yet, they claim that they are keeping their vows. If Viserys is king, then they would be breaking their vows; if they are not breaking the vows, then Viserys is not king. Aerys can't have legitimized Jon, Rhaegar was never king, so the only option left would be polygamous marriage, possibly performed before the hearttree.

ETA: I believe that Barristan's comment how "the purpose of KG isn't to guard mistresses and bastards" is GRRM's hint at ToJ.

[rmholt]

I don't know if this has been mentioned (because I don't want to read every post) but......

They said PtwP would be born amidst salt and smoke. Most people think it is because Jon's would was smoking and Bowen Marsh's tears were the salt, when they were stabbing him.

I always though of it as Lyanna crying when Ned and his men fought the Kingsguard, and the smoke from when he burned and tore down the tower.

I think that makes far more sense than the stabbing being the catalyst. If this has been posted my bad.

I hope it refers to Valyria but right now I cant see how the story would get there.

[rmholt]

true, and the only occasion where a wound was "smoking" (correct me if wrong) was when describing the dragons' wounds.

Absolutely not true.

[Serie]

Absolutely not true.

oh wow, thanks!!! I guess I remember only what suits me :D

[Budj]

When were the other times? I thought steaming was more often used.

[Serie]

When were the other times? I thought steaming was more often used.

finished searching AGOT. No smoking wound reference... :P

ETA: ACOK also... and there was a LOT of smoke I assure you... but not from wounds :D

[rmholt]

finished searching AGOT. No smoking wound reference... :P

ETA: ACOK also... and there was a LOT of smoke I assure you... but not from wounds :D

Off the top of my head the stabbed Other

[Lady Octarina]

Off the top of my head the stabbed Other

Could you be more specific?

Though I really don't think a magical creature is a good evidence against what most see as a possible confirmation of Jon's mystical powers/origins.

[rmholt]

Could you be more specific?

Though I really don't think a magical creature is a good evidence against what most see as a possible confirmation of Jon's mystical powers/origins.

How many Others have been stabbed?

[Dr. Pepper]

This is a Sam chapter where Small Paul has been stabbed by an Other:

Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell.

Then after Sam stabbed the other with the obsidian blade:

When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

[Zupoleon]

This is a Sam chapter where Small Paul has been stabbed by an Other:

Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell.

Then after Sam stabbed the other with the obsidian blade:

When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

I'm not sure how much we can look into all this, but let me play devil's advocate anyways and do a little nitpicking:

In the first example, it's the blood of Small Paul SMOKING on the blade, not the wound itself.

In the second example, the blood STEAMS. Steam and smoke are not the same. Furthermore, it's the Other's fingers that are smoking, not an actual wound.

I think for the time being, the only two WOUNDS to SMOKE are Drogon's and Jon's...

Like I said, we're probably breaking this down to a molecular level at this point, but what the heck, it's fun to discuss... :)

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not sure how much we can look into all this, but let me play devil's advocate anyways and do a little nitpicking:

In the first example, it's the blood of Small Paul SMOKING on the blade, not the wound itself.

In the second example, the blood STEAMS. Steam and smoke are not the same. Furthermore, it's the Other's fingers that are smoking, not an actual wound.

I think for the time being, the only two WOUNDS to SMOKE are Drogon's and Jon's...

Like I said, we're probably breaking this down to a molecular level at this point, but what the heck, it's fun to discuss... :)

I'm not really sure I'm getting the difference you are pointing out here. The debate is over the use of the words 'smoking' and 'steaming' when discussing wounds taken in cold weather. Small Paul is very clearly wounded just as Jon was very clearly wounded. Unless you are suggesting that Jon's wound had no blood present, I don't think even this devil's advocate argument flies.

My point was showing that there have been other instances in the books where wounds taken in cold weather have been described as smoking. We know that the literal definitions of steam and smoke are different, but even in real life people will call steam smoke as the characteristics of the two are quite similar. While Jon's smoking wound may very well be thematic evidence to support his parentage, I don't think it quite works when trying to connect it to the AA prophecy.

I really do think this is another instance where Martin is trolling the readers and trying to put in as many smoke and salt references around various characters as possible just to make our search for theory evidence that much more involved.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

true, and the only occasion where a wound was "smoking" (correct me if wrong) was when describing the dragons' wounds.

never mind

[Zupoleon]

We know that the literal definitions of steam and smoke are different, but even in real life people will call steam smoke as the characteristics of the two are quite similar.

I really do think this is another instance where Martin is trolling the readers and trying to put in as many smoke and salt references around various characters as possible just to make our search for theory evidence that much more involved.

I suppose we're just arguing semantics here, but I don't think too many people use steam and smoke interchangeably, nor are they similar IMO. No big deal though.

I couldn't agree more with your point about Martin inserting all the salt and smoke references. It's clearly meant to keep us guessing. As far as the AA connection, I'm sure Martin will make it abundantly clear to the reader when the actual birth amidst salt and smoke occurs...

[rmholt]

This is a Sam chapter where Small Paul has been stabbed by an Other:

Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell.

Then after Sam stabbed the other with the obsidian blade:

When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Yes you beat me to reporting that one.

Wounds and breath smoking or steaming to me has meant severe cold. In fact, Jon's last thought is "...and the cold" It is my hypothesis that the Others are behind Jon's attempted (or successful) assassination. Hey they have to make an appearance at SOME point. And the Others and severe cold come together.

Although it isnt like GRRM to rescue someone who ignores life saving advice - such as keeping one's wolf close.

[rmholt]

The Others have also been described as a mist twice, once by Tormund and once by Mel. In Mel's vision, the mist goes into caves (IIRC) and snuff out campfires. To the eye, smoke, mist, and steam look alike. The stuff coming from breath and wounds in the cold is neither smoke nor steam. It occurs in nature so I dont think it is supernatural except that the Others are associated with severe cold.

[FittleLinger]

Yes you beat me to reporting that one.

Wounds and breath smoking or steaming to me has meant severe cold. In fact, Jon's last thought is "...and the cold" It is my hypothesis that the Others are behind Jon's attempted (or successful) assassination. Hey they have to make an appearance at SOME point. And the Others and severe cold come together.

Although it isnt like GRRM to rescue someone who ignores life saving advice - such as keeping one's wolf close.

The Others have also been described as a mist twice, once by Tormund and once by Mel. In Mel's vision, the mist goes into caves (IIRC) and snuff out campfires. To the eye, smoke, mist, and steam look alike. The stuff coming from breath and wounds in the cold is neither smoke nor steam. It occurs in nature so I dont think it is supernatural except that the Others are associated with severe cold.

That's interesting, have you developed your hypothesis further. More evidence, suggestions, assumptions? I mean the Others behind Jon's attack. It would be interesting to hear if you have.

[rmholt]

That's interesting, have you developed your hypothesis further. More evidence, suggestions, assumptions? I mean the Others behind Jon's attack. It would be interesting to hear if you have.

Well, the stewards attacked Jon and did not seem to behaving normally for them - Wick putting his hands up as if to say Not Me and Marsh in tears. It would take a lot to instigate this aberrant behavior - although some have decided that Jon has aggravated them enough on his own. Also Ghost is not behaving typically.

[King Aemon I]

Looking for magical talents in jon is not logical. Viserys was a pure-blood Targaryen but he died, screaming. Daenerys didn't die, but I believe it was the magic that was surrounding her with the birth of dragons.. Dragons don't follow her because she is magical, I believe, because she raised them.. Jon doesn't have the looks of it so I believe only the Reed witness will prove his dragonhood..

[Serie]

thanks for the references regarding smoking wounds everyone :)

Well, the stewards attacked Jon and did not seem to behaving normally for them - Wick putting his hands up as if to say Not Me and Marsh in tears. It would take a lot to instigate this aberrant behavior - although some have decided that Jon has aggravated them enough on his own. Also Ghost is not behaving typically.

I thought that they actually felt bad for attacking Jon cause they liked him well enough as a lad, but they just had to do it for the sake of the NW. The other thing I thought for a moment was that Mel made them do so in order to save him from the other knives in the darkness that saw in her flames. But I can't think of any reason why Bowen would listen to Mel...

Looking for magical talents in jon is not logical. Viserys was a pure-blood Targaryen but he died, screaming. Daenerys didn't die, but I believe it was the magic that was surrounding her with the birth of dragons.. Dragons don't follow her because she is magical, I believe, because she raised them.. Jon doesn't have the looks of it so I believe only the Reed witness will prove his dragonhood..

well who said that the Targaryens are "magical" in the first place? I'm afraid I don't get what you're trying to say.... would you please be kind enough to elaborate? :)