Mormonts Raven-a re-read

[Scipio Africanus]

My biggest problem with this is that even if R + L = J is true, Jon is still a bastard and has no right to the throne. As far as I can tell Polygamy is not practiced in Westeros which would still leave Jon without a claim to any inheritance.

Well this is R+L=J thread territory.

But going solely on the bird (as he is the word)...there's an early CoK chapter where Mormont's Raven cries "king" several times while looking straight at Jon (that is how I interpet the scene).

Whomever is warging the bird at the time, he seems to think Jon is a king.

[FittleLinger]

Well this is R+L=J thread territory.

But going solely on the bird (as he is the word)...there's an early CoK chapter where Mormont's Raven cries "king" several times while looking straight at Jon (that is how I interpet the scene).

Whomever is warging the bird at the time, he seems to think Jon is a king.

That's one of the cheeky Martin moments, because at first, you'd think Mormont's eyes never left Jon (" Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow."). And afterwards, when you realize about R+L and when you learn about Bloodraven, you then think, "Damn, maybe "his" means the raven's. Bloodraven's".

Regardless of whose eyes are being referred to, I still think the raven is clearly referring to Jon Snow.

[redriver]

Yep, the raven is certainly fond of the word king,and especially in relation to Jon.I don't see him going on to sit the Iron Throne.

Perhaps King in the North,King of Winter,some renewed version of the Nights King?King of the Others.

You do get a sense of an important destiny for Jon,from the raven.

[Scipio Africanus]

Perhaps King in the North,King of Winter,some renewed version of the Nights King?King of the Others.

If Brynden Rivers is warging the Raven, we can assume some things.

- Though he was a "great bastard" he fought against the Blackfyres and was a Targ loyalist.

- for now, we assume he's working with (or for) the CotF, and against the Others, since to gain access to BR's pad Bran had to fight his way through wights. If Brynden was working for the Great Other you'd think the Wights would let them past.

It is likely that if Brynden saw Jon's future, he'd be a king of some sort, but I doubt he'd be a Night King otherwise the Raven might not have been so...chipper in his interaction with Jon.

[FittleLinger]

If Brynden Rivers is warging the Raven, we can assume some things.

- Though he was a "great bastard" he fought against the Blackfyres and was a Targ loyalist.

- for now, we assume he's working with (or for) the CotF, and against the Others, since to gain access to BR's pad Bran had to fight his way through wights. If Brynden was working for the Great Other you'd think the Wights would let them past.

It is likely that if Brynden saw Jon's future, he'd be a king of some sort, but I doubt he'd be a Night King otherwise the Raven might not have been so...chipper in his interaction with Jon.

First, if R+L is true, then he is rightful king, no matter if he will embrace it or not.

Second, the raven's not saying it's a good thing, if he really does refer to Night's King. As in "Beware, you're turning into Night's King" or something to that effect.

Third, we really don't know BR's agenda.

And forth - he might know that if Jon is to become Night's King, then he will bring some kind of balance, so even if BR is anti - Others, Jon as night's king might be a good thing for him.

I'm not saying Jon will deffinately be Night's King, I'm just saying the reasons you stated are not comprehensive enough to exclude it from the possibilities. In my opinion it's more abstract (like the existance of gods in the books). As in the bird says "King" to Jon, so it's open to interpretation, and it will never be outright stated, like "Hey Jon, remember when Mormont's raven spoke to you? Well, I was warging it, and I meant that you will be king of *whatever*."

It will be more like, when things unfold someway or other, we (who are a minority, that have even thought of this raven at all, as taken from the general audience) will be like - "Hey, remember when the raven screamed "king" to Jon? Well, look what happened..."

[Little Wing]

So is there a difference between crows (Corvus corone) and ravens (Corvus corax)? All crows and ravens are crows (Corvidae).

But the asking for corn is dished up by Martin in Bran's chapters as specific to crows¹ (actual crows, not the genus name) - until we meet Mormont's raven.

The books tell us that in the olden days ravens were used as messenger birds, not their little nephews the black crows.

But still we have Bran being met by a crow. Unless he is not aware of the difference between the two birds, of course, but I think he would be.

This may or may not be a strong hint that the crow that visited him was special, like Mormont's raven is special.

Maybe it indicates they have the same source of wisdom, the same sender².

1 - Yep, the 3EC's "Say, got any corn?" comes to mind... that strange sentence... would BR say something like that? A crow (more inclined to eat corn?) talking through a raven (more into meat), mayhaps through Bloodraven too on other occasions, asking for corn... who's using who? ...

2 - This sender/source of wisdom being the 3EC but maybe as a separate entity that can use BR just as it uses its other forms maybe to warn, guide or even mock - crows, ravens, direwolves(?), people (the Liddle/hooded man in WF, other prophetic mysterious folk who know much and more - Ghost of High Heart... Quaithe?)

It comes off as it's all powerful, but I think the 3EC (whoever it may be, I'm playing with the heretic notion that it may not be BR but a separate independent entity) still depends on the free will of humans and their choices. It can influence or guide them through it's cryptic talk (like our favourite raven here) but the outcome still depends on what the protagonists do. I see it as a master of improvisation that can play with and use to its advantage/endgame whatever it is thrown in its general direction ie, whatever people decide to do, it will have its corn.

ETA: Loving the thread by the way, looking forward to the next analysis. :cheers:

[redriver]

Thank you,Little Wing.Though I'm not convinced by the 3EC as a seperate entity yet,though I'm not dismissing it either.

I love the notion of ravens,including our friend,as survivors,who advise their providers,but will eat them if needs be.

As I say,pragmatic creatures.Though no real evidence of warging by Bloodraven specifically as yet.

[Little Wing]

Yeah, I'm playing with the notion myself.

Ah, so the raven as an old soul that's seen much and more... sounds good too!

The pragmatic/indifferent side of Mormont's raven is really interesting here, it gets involved only lightly, seemingly with an agenda, but it actually doesn't care and will peck your face after you die... makes you think if it really takes any sides...

[Zupoleon]

Yeah, I'm playing with the notion myself.

Ah, so the raven as an old soul that's seen much and more... sounds good too!

The pragmatic/indifferent side of Mormont's raven is really interesting here, it gets involved only lightly, seemingly with an agenda, but it actually doesn't care and will peck your face after you die... makes you think if it really takes any sides...

I wonder if the moments when we see the raven being indifferent are when it is not being warged. In other words, it's just being a raven, with it's main goal being survival. When it sees Mormont's corpse, It doesn't see the guy who used to take take care of it, it simply sees a chance at a meal...

[Little Wing]

Yeah, seems the most rational explanation. I wonder if we'll ever know about these little (not to mention Liddle) things...

[redriver]

We will.No doubt they are ever present in the series.

As soon as we lose Mormont's Raven,maybe,then a more articulate raven crops up.

Whether it's Mormont's,Bloodravens or someone else's the ravens never go away.

[Scipio Africanus]

Second, the raven's not saying it's a good thing, if he really does refer to Night's King. As in "Beware, you're turning into Night's King" or something to that effect.

That's true I suppose, though it does then beg the question why he would help Jon against the Wight and becoming LC of the NW (eventually), if he knew Jon was going to be the Night King.

Unless he's trying to prevent that. But considering he was unable (or unwilling) to prevent the attack of the Others at the Fist, the subsequent murder of Old Bear and the assassination of Jon, I think his abilities to intervene might be limited.

ps We're not there yet I think, but the second (or third) Sam POV at Craster's pad, the scene where the surviving Rangers at the table start clamouring for more food, I found quite humorous for some reason.

When the men chant for more food the Raven starts screaming for corn along with the rest. Not really de-escalating what mr. Rivers did there. ;)

[FittleLinger]

That's true I suppose, though it does then beg the question why he would help Jon against the Wight and becoming LC of the NW (eventually), if he knew Jon was going to be the Night King.

Unless he's trying to prevent that. But considering he was unable (or unwilling) to prevent the attack of the Others at the Fist, the subsequent murder of Old Bear and the assassination of Jon, I think his abilities to intervene might be limited.

ps We're not there yet I think, but the second (or third) Sam POV at Craster's pad, the scene where the surviving Rangers at the table start clamouring for more food, I found quite humorous for some reason.

When the men chant for more food the Raven starts screaming for corn along with the rest. Not really de-escalating what mr. Rivers did there. ;)

One of the more interesting things for me is whether the corn-screaming raven is unwarged and just being raven, which is the more likely case. But then, what does this tell us of the raven eating Mormont's face after his death? We'll get to this eventually.

[lieswithwolves]

Great thread!

I thought the face-eating thing was more like the raven berating and grieving for Mormont in some way, like "Why didn't you listen to me? You'd still be alive and feeding me corn if you listened to me!"

Especially with the "Meat" "Men" "Die" warning he'd recently squawked...

[FrozenFire3]

Corn is phonetically similar to the Latin word cornu which means and is etymologically related to the English word horn. If confirmed, this clever phonetic trick could point to what already said about the raven issuing a warning of sort. And it resonates beautifully with redriver's post about wordless scream=>horn sound=>cornu=>corn.

[Rohed]

Oh snap... Can we link the evens to the amount of "corn"s that,are said.. 3 horns is others,

[Rohed]

A lot thing are said in threes

the whole chette convo stuff,

Meat,meat,meat

Men,men,men

"Die", pause," die,die,die." Pause then,flying away "die"

The Others were oi n the way at that point, and Coldhands came into the picture after that. I forget how before that ghost brought Jon to the dragonglass.

, but possibly coldhands was close by watching.

[redriver]

Our feathered friend crops up in Sam's next POV.

It's a grim time as the remnants of the Night's Watch flee the devastating attack on the Fist.Sam is physically and mentally exhausted,barely able to walk,and recalls the events on the Fist in flashback,between sobs and steps.

He recalls Maslyn's death as a wight lifted him up by the throat and near ripped his head off.

"The dead have no mercy left in them,and the Others...no,I mustn't think of that,don't think,don't walk,don't remember,just walk,just walk,just walk."

Hmm,scary Others.I get the impression that the Others are not that numerous,they get the wights to do the dirty work,at their direction.

Sam falls,and resigns himself to a long sleep under a snowy blanket.Then he recalls his duties as tender of the ravens.Mormont had told him,in no uncertain terms, that his role was to send messages to the Wall,in the event the Watch were attacked.Some to Castle Black,the rest to the Shadow Tower,but,-"get those birds off,or I swear I'll hunt you through all seven hells and make you damned sorry that you didn't."

"And Mormont's own raven had bobbed its head up and down and croaked ""Sorry,sorry,sorry."

Hmm,what to make of that?I doubt it's apologizing for some indiscretion committed,it doesn't seem the type.Reinforcing Mormont's threat aside,perhaps it's telling Sam he's going to go through a tough spell,and soon.

Amidst memories of the attack,Sam recalls Mormont telling him to get out of the way,and tend the ravens.Sam reports that he has sent the earlier requested messages away.

Mormont,-"Good."

Raven,"Good,good."

Again,it's hard to know what the raven is driving at here,but if it's simply reinforcing Sam as a good guy,then that's good enough for me(alternate theories welcome).

We get a primer on raven tech.Sam has cages labelled "Castle Black" and therein are ravens trained to fly to "Castle Black",he has another one with the tag "Shadow Tower",and not unsurprisingly,they are trained to fly there.

Sam manages to loose all the ravens,but fails to attach any of the messages to them.

Much to the Liddle's puzzlement.

Anyhoo,no more raven,but Sam slays an Other!!!!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Regarding the "corn" stuff, I think it's a literary allusion to the Corn King in Celtic myth, a figure who's sacrificed to bring, and resurrects during, the springtime.

[redriver]

Regarding the "corn" stuff, I think it's a literary allusion to the Corn King in Celtic myth, a figure who's sacrificed to bring, and resurrects during, the springtime.

Welcome to the thread ,you!We have been puzzling over the "corn" symbolism,including the "Corn King" idea,and it's implications.

Ideas have emerged that the word indicates notions of death,rebirth,sarcasm,begging,food and the perhaps unfashionable notion that the bird's favourite food is corn.

Anyway,there are some amazing and fun ideas within the thread contributed to by an illustrious cast ,and feel welcome to add anytime,you wish.