Mormonts Raven-a re-read

[Naathi Prince]

The Ravens have their own language

[Chewie Parker]

From a Celtic mythology site:

The final celebration of the agricultural year is Lughnasadh (Lammas in England), the feast of the god Lugh and the first fruits of the harvest (generally wheat or corn)

or calan awst, it just means autumn harvest in our language , not sure on the scotish/english translations tho ... basically everyone pitch's in to gather the harvest , still goes on to a degree not on a set date but in principle :)

[Zupoleon]

I always liked the following passage from ACOK: (excerpt taken from a discussion over at the Tower of the Hand forum)

"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the air to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with his finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

[Manfryd Lothston]

Interesting project, looking forward to see it updated.

Mormont's raven, like Balerion the one-eyed cat at the Red Keep, are imo definitely warged into from time to time, probably by Bloodraven. Most of the time though, it's just a smart old raven. And as such, it could be representative of forces even less pronounced and more enigmatic than old Bryndon. Something akin to Melisandre's flame or Patchface's mutterings.

[redriver]

I always liked the following passage from ACOK: (excerpt taken from a discussion over at the Tower of the Hand forum)

"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the air to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with his finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

Looking forward to this one.

[Sanset]

Very interesting topic.

When Jon fights the wight in AGOT the raven helps him by screaming out 'burn! burn!' with abolutely no provocation whatsoever. No one said the words, so it wasn't just mimicking sounds. It was actually telling Jon how to kill the wight.

It wasn't exactly that way. First, Jon saw Lord Mormont "standing in the doorway with an oil lamp in hand". He "snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers". After that the raven cawed "burn". The raven says words sometimes on its own will, not always is repeating the last word. That's usual for any talking birds.

The weird thing is the whisper (the quote is below). We don't pay attention because any brother could have said it. But... after a re-read we can be suspicious about who really was whispering the solution.

Here is the first quote. When I think the raven might have whispered "Burn them".

"Burn them," someone whispered. One of the rangers; Jon could not have said who. "Yes, burn them," a second voice urged.

AGoT, Jon VII

The second quote (at the end of the same chapter) shows that the raven says "burn" after Jon saw the fire. Before that, the raven only says "corn" (a lot times anyway. It doesn't seem to be asking for corn, of course it couldn't scream: Hey, Old Bear, wake up!).

Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. "Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"

Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he'd ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands.

AGoT, Jon VII

[Florina Laufeyson]

The best theory I've read on these forums that explains this kind of behavior is that the bird is being warged by Bloodraven, who is keeping an eye on Jon.

Yes. I believe that.

The raven is always saying "snow" after awhile. (Sam taught them all that word i think) To the point where he says that more than corn.

Also i think its in ADWD, but the bird actually says "Jon Snow" and Jon remarks on how queer that is. Its never said his name before. It make me really think that the bird is being warged. Perhaps in the beginning it was Bloodraven (who admitted to warging those ravens to call Bran to make his climb), but maybe Bran is warging it in ADWD and is calling out for Jon? Crackpot i know but hey.

[Jon Flowers]

Great topic Red. Keep at it.

[geogus]

[merged threads - Ang.]

Hi guys

As we all suspected, ADWD revealed that mormont´s crow is a important charecter, and not just bird that keep flying around LC´s head.

Everytime we saw the bloody bird in the book, it was speaking something

Now if we read the books again, assuming that when the crow talks, actually is bloodraven who is talking, we get an all new perspective from the text.

Of course, we would need to guess when it was bloodraven talking and when it was just a smart crow being a smart crow.

But i have a chapter in mind.

Its when LC and Jon are talking about past targ kings, then the crow keeps repeating "king, king, king..."

It says it so many times that jon and mormont joked that he liked the word and wanted the LC to be king.

But couldnt it be that the crow/bloodraven was trying to tell Snow that he is a king (R +L= J)

Or he was trying to say something else?

If this is true, how would bloodraven know about jon parentage?

[Tyryan Lannister]

Hi guys

As we all suspected, ADWD revealed that mormont´s crow is a important charecter, and not just bird that keep flying around LC´s head.

Everytime we saw the bloody bird in the book, it was speaking something

Now if we read the books again, assuming that when the crow talks, actually is bloodraven who is talking, we get an all new perspective from the text.

Of course, we would need to guess when it was bloodraven talking and when it was just a smart crow being a smart crow.

But i have a chapter in mind.

Its when LC and Jon are talking about past targ kings, then the crow keeps repeating "king, king, king..."

It says it so many times that jon and mormont joked that he liked the word and wanted the LC to be king.

But couldnt it be that the crow/bloodraven was trying to tell Snow that he is a king (R +L= J)

Or he was trying to say something else?

If this is true, how would bloodraven know about jon parentage?

Well, BR is in the weirnet, and Ned probably did at some point confess the truth to his gods, so...

Also, if Rhaegar was very close with Aemon as is assumed, then it's possible he had a raven (maybe a BR special raven?) sent to Aemon telling him of his plans vis-a-vis his pregnant wife/concubine, Lyanna. BR then would have gotten some knowledge of the event through Rhaegar/Aemon, and, since this is BR we're talking about it, he was able to put all the various pieces together and figure it all out.

[Efilnikufesin]

There was a passage in one of the Jon chapters in AGoT where he is speaking to Mormont and the word crow comes up somehow. The raven repeats the word with an air of disdain or something similar. Making me think that if someone is influencing this raven, it's not the 3EC. Let me see if I can find the conversation.

[Efilnikufesin]

Hmm, now that i see it not sure:

Mormont snorted. “Because I sent him, why do you think? He’s bringing the hand your

Ghost tore off the end of Jafer Flowers’s wrist. I have commanded him to take ship to

King’s Landing and lay it before this boy king. That should get young Joffrey’s attention,

I’d think . . . and Ser Alliser’s a knight, highborn, anointed, with old friends at court,

altogether harder to ignore than a glorified crow.”

“Crow.” Jon thought the raven sounded faintly indignant.

Though he may be indignant about Thorne.

[The Great Cornholio!]

I suspect both Bloodraven and Mormont were warging the crow. The crow pecking Mormonts face after his death is a tell.

[redriver]

Yes,as alluded to by Sanset and Ser Wun Wun above the next time we encounter the bird is in another Jon POV.

By this time Jon and Sam have sworn their vows,Jon is Mormont's steward,Sam is Maester Aemon's.The bodies of the dead rangers have been recovered and placed in a storeroom.

In his solar,Mormont breaks the news to Jon that King Robert is dead.As jon enters,the raven screams "Corn,corn,corn,corn" Mormont says the raven has just been fed.Jon asks about his father,Eddard.

"I told you to sit,"Mormont grumbled."Sit",the raven screamed.A repetition of the last word spoken.

They discuss what might happen to Eddard,including the possibility of him being forced to take the black.Mormont warns Jon against doing anything "stupid"."Your old life ended when you took the black"."Black",echoed the bird.

Mormont dismisses Jon,but later that night Jon is woken by the agitated behaviour of his direwolf,Ghost,follows him to Mormont's chambers and is attacked by a wight.He hears the raven shrieking,"corn,corn,corn,corn,".

A fight ensues during which the wight is stabbed and dismembered,but still comes back for more.Mormont appears at the door,holding an oil lamp.Jon grabs the lamp,which flickers and almost goes out.

"Burn",the raven cawed."Burn,burn,burn"

Jon throws the lamp at the wight,burning and killing it.

This is the first time the bird has uttered words,(apart from "corn") which are not repetitions.Not only a new word,but advice on the only sure way to "kill" wights.

So,this is where we first wonder whether we have an extremely intelligent and knowledgeable bird on our hands....

....or whether the bird is warged?

We have encountered warging,especially in Bran POV's,in the novel,so the question is not unreasonable,but it leads to the next question-by whom?

Sanset makes a good point about who utters the words "Burn them" earlier in the chapter.The speaker is not identified,but assumed to be a ranger.We havn't seen any evidence that the bird can mimic human voice tones,but we can't rule it out.

It might be an idea to keep our eyes open for this type of stuff as we proceed.

[FittleLinger]

Not at all.If you wish to expand on the Celtic Myth,feel free.

I'd be interested.

Well, to keep it simple - the Corn King is a spirit/deity, who dies in winter, to get reborn in the spring, wiser. All variations of his name are strongly associated with light. Knowing how Martin likes relating to myths, the seemingly irrelevant "corn" and the straight-forward "king" might combine on a lower, deeper level as an allusion to this myth.

The Brythonic sun-god is Llew Llaw Gyffes. His name becomes Lugus with the Gauls. Llew’s totem is the eagle – a sun-bird – and all forms of his name refer to “light”. More modern forms are names like Luke, Luc in French, Lucifer which means light-bringer. Llew is killed and reborn, wiser.

[mcb]

I've kept waiting, and in futility so far, for the raven to say something inappropriate.

"Spank me, spank me", the raven screamed.

Black brethren looked at their Lord Commander with curiosity. The Old Bear's face suddenly turned into a stone mask, impossible to read.

Something like this.

[redriver]

Well, to keep it simple - the Corn King is a spirit/deity, who dies in winter, to get reborn in the spring, wiser. All variations of his name are strongly associated with light. Knowing how Martin likes relating to myths, the seemingly irrelevant "corn" and the straight-forward "king" might combine on a lower, deeper level as an allusion to this myth.

The Brythonic sun-god is Llew Llaw Gyffes. His name becomes Lugus with the Gauls. Llew’s totem is the eagle – a sun-bird – and all forms of his name refer to “light”. More modern forms are names like Luke, Luc in French, Lucifer which means light-bringer. Llew is killed and reborn, wiser.

And Lugh was an Irish demi-god who wielded a fire emitting spear.The harvest feast,Lughnasa is named after him.

The only caveat I would add to the mythology analogies in Martin's writing is that he has put his own spin on an eclectic variety of source material.

[redriver]

I've kept waiting, and in futility so far, for the raven to say something inappropriate.

Something like this.

He does shit on Mormont's shoulder at one point.Oh dear,I'm spoilerizing!!

[The Fallen]

` I've asked previously how early the bird was being warged? I was relating it to the conversation in ACoK between LC Mormont and Jon Snow about Benjen at the Fist of the First Men. I won't jump ahead as you want to proceed chronologically, not to mention how confusing it would be if we were all over the place with examples.

I'll keep checking the thread as it's updated.

It's amazing what we discover during a reread (I'm currently on my second reading of ACoK).

[FittleLinger]

` I've asked previously how early the bird was being warged? I was relating it to the conversation in ACoK between LC Mormont and Jon Snow about Benjen at the Fist of the First Men. I won't jump ahead as you want to proceed chronologically, not to mention how confusing it would be if we were all over the place with examples.

I'll keep checking the thread as it's updated.

It's amazing what we discover during a reread (I'm currently on my second reading of ACoK).

My money is it starts being warged as soon as Jon arrives at the wall. It clearly has important thing to "say" and warn Jon about.