Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa X

Recommended Posts

Sorry to be so late with this, had a busy couple of weeks.

Marillion

We first see Marillion through the eyes of Catelyn Stark. He approaches Cat and Ser Rodrick boldly at the Crossroads Inn and we begin to get the measure of this man. Cat notes the empty wine cup on his table indicating one of his main reasons for approaching them. Marillion inquires about their travels but is clearly more interested in talking about himself. Cat notes he is young and handsome and despite knowing his type Marillion makes her smile; nostalgia for the singers that frequented Riverrun in her youth clearly plays a part but she also finds this young man charming. During their conversation Marillion also reveals much about himself. Marillion is a poor judge of character and circumstances. He first approaches Ser Rodrick believing he is the one with coin. When Roderick is uninterested he refers to him as sour and tells Cat he really wanted to pay tribute to her beauty.

Despite his claims at being meant to play for kings and high lords he truly has no clue. He insults Winterfell in front of its Lady, claims Edmure loves him to the sister that knows Edmure despises singers and offers to flatter Tywin to Tyrion which may have even been a worse choice than praising Cersei. Demeaning one party in attempts to ingratiate himself to another is routine for this aspiring con artist. He repeats this process insulting the Starks and Winterfell as he flatters Riverrun and boasts of how he was meant to play for kings and high lords. Despite the obvious lie, Cat still smiles. This charm Marillion has for women does not extend to men. He rubs both Ser Rodrick and Tyrion the wrong way largely from his lack of the typical Westeros manliness.

[Tyrion] planned an especially sharp lesson for Marillion, him of the woodharp and the sweet tenor voice, who was struggling so manfully to rhyme imp with gimp and limp so he could make a song of this outrage.

[ser Rodrick's] opinion of singers was well known; music was a lovely thing for girls, but he could not comprehend why any healthy boy would fill his hand with a harp when he might have had a sword.

This lack of manliness shows through when they confront the hill tribes on the road to the Eyrie. Marillion is paralyzed by fear, hides, shrieks, panics when a horse bleeds on him, and generally acquits himself of manliness in every way possible.

Marillion's has a laziness and sense of entitlement that leads him to gamble foolishly. Despite "making more silver than he could carry" he lost it all betting on a Tourney. He clearly has not learned his lesson.

Marillion kept throwing sullen looks back at Tyrion as they rode. The singer had broken several ribs, his woodharp, and all four fingers on his playing hand, yet the day had not been an utter loss to him; somewhere he had acquired a magnificent shadowskin cloak, thick black fur slashed by stripes of white. He huddled beneath its folds silently, and for once had nothing to say.

Despite such losses he still gambles away his only gain and loses this cloak to Tyrion at dice. Yet in spite of these shortcomings Cat still has enough of a soft spot to agree to let Marillion accompany her to the Eyrie which opens up the opportunity for Bronn to follow.

“My lady,” Marillion said, riding forward. “I beg you allow me to accompany you to the Eyrie, to see the end of the tale as I saw its beginnings.” The boy sounded haggard, yet strangely determined; he had a fevered shine to his eyes.

Cat is usually astute enough to realize the implications of such an invitation and she was already focuses on separating Tyrion and Bronn. Even with the broken fingers on his playing hand Marillion manages to charm someone out of a new harp-- probably a woman.

Marillion the singer had found a new woodharp. Tyrion smiled; whatever happened here tonight, he did not wish it to happen in secret, and there was no one like a singer for spreading a story near and far.

So we have a pretty clear picture of just who Marillion is before he ever encounters Sansa. Although it doesn't affect his interaction with Sansa, Marillion has met her mother, her aunt, and her husband before seeing her. He also mentions losing money on the same jousting match that supposedly caused the infamous dagger to change hands that leads Cat to take Tyrion into custody in the first place.

Sansa first meets Marillion at Littlefinger's family home after escaping Kings Landing. He arrives with Lysa a little over a week after Sansa. Sansa notes that

She brought a septon as well, and a handsome singer with a wisp of a mustache and long sandy curls.

The Sansa that left Winterfell would be enchanted at the mere notion of a singer and infinitely charmed by such a handsome one. Now his arrival doesn't even distract her from her own internal thoughts and feelings. She thinks of how the singers say the Vale of Arryn is beautiful and thinks wistfully of the musicians in Highgarden but the reality of a singer in her presence doesn't even evoke a single thought. She doesn't even think of him by name, he is only Lysa's singer, until he tries to rape her.

Marillion first serves to illustrate just how much Sansa has changed. The two Tully women were both charmed by this young attractive singer and Sansa, formerly the most likely character of all to swoon over a handsome young singer, barely even makes note of his presence. His real impact on Sansa comes through his malevolence. When he first tries to rape Sansa:

Sansa jerked away from him, frightened. “If you don’t leave me, my au—my father will hang you. Lord Petyr.”

“Littlefinger?” He chuckled. “Lady Lysa loves me well, and I am Lord Robert’s favorite. If your father offends me, I will destroy him with a verse.”

Her first instinct was to invoke her aunt for protection but she uses Littlefinger instead-- two foster parental figures who remind me of parents who sit by and do nothing while they know their children are being molested. The attempted rape brings home the true danger men can pose as well as the limits of her protectors. Her previous abuse was at the hands of Joffrey, but he was a King. Marillion demonstrates that any man, no matter how lowborn, can be a threat. It is one more lesson that helps her strip away class distinctions in general.

Marillion's attack also seems to put some of her past in perspective. After her rescue by Brune she thinks of Sandor which is appropriate given his lessons about how ineffective courtesy is as armor in the real world.

And quick as that, Marillion was gone. The other remained, looming over Sansa in the darkness. “Lord Petyr said watch out for you.” It was Lothor Brune’s voice, she realized. Not the Hound’s, no, how could it be? Of course it had to be Lothor

Marillion embodies all that she thought ideal as a child and has now become her symbol of a hostile male, while the Hound who was the antithesis of the knightly ideal she had as a child now embodies that very ideal.

Prior to Marillion's attack Sansa's thoughts are very much on her own past and future and the wedding brings this to mind.

When it was time for the bedding, her knights carried her up to the tower, stripping her as they went and shouting bawdy jests. Tyrion spared me that, Sansa remembered. It would not have been so bad being undressed for a man she loved, by friends who loved them both. By Joffrey, though… she shuddered.

The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane. Did he know that they’d killed Joffrey? Would he care? He had been the prince’s sworn shield for years.

His attack seems to have softened her view of Tyrion. On the boat she thinks

The long nightmare of King’s Landing was behind her, and her mockery of a marriage as well

but when Lysa asks her about Tyrion after Marillion's attack:

“I am still a maid.”

“Was the dwarf incapable?”

“No. He was only… he was…” Kind? She could not say that, not here, not to this aunt who hated him so.

I think the bedding combined with Marillion's attack gives Sansa a new perspective on how her marriage could have gone, and I do not think kind? would have come to mind regarding Tyrion if she hadn't been assaulted by Marillion the night before.

I also think Marillion's attempted rape has an impact on her conversation with Lysa.

“I… I am married, my lady.”

“Yes, but soon a widow. Be glad the Imp preferred his whores. It would not be fitting for my son to take that dwarf’s leavings, but as he never touched you… How would you like to marry your cousin, the Lord Robert?”

It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love. But lying came easy to her now.

Just hours before Sansa was a moment away from being "Marillion's leavings" in her aunt's eyes. Although not spoken, the future consequences of an actual rape by Marillion's cannot be lost on Sansa in this conversation.

When Sansa goes to the Vale

Aside from her aged maid, Sansa’s only companion was the Lord Robert, eight going on three.

And Marillion. There is always Marillion. When he played for them at supper, the young singer often seemed to be singing directly at her. Her aunt was far from pleased. Lady Lysa doted on Marillion, and had banished two serving girls and even a page for telling lies about him.

Marillion transforms the Eyrie from a boring version of a prison into a more subtle version of Sansa's stay in Kings Landing. The fact that Marillion is always eyeing her and that Lysa is displeased tells us that Sansa has been constantly engaged in a miniature version of the Game of thrones with Marillion where Sansa is essentially "the throne." It also shows us that she has still not had any break from the constant abuse she endured at Kings Landing and that both Lysa and Littlefinger have done almost nothing to protect her (beyond their own selfish interest in her continued virginity.)

Sansa has a wonderful epiphany after building Snow Winterfell. When Littlefinger kisses her she is reminded of Marillion and his attempted rape and she has had enough. She is on the verge of reclaiming herself and seeing Littlefinger and everything else around her clearly.

My lord husband, Sansa thought, as she contemplated the ruins of Winterfell. The snow had stopped, and it was colder than before. She wondered if Lord Robert would shake all through their wedding. At least Joffrey was sound of body. A mad rage seized hold of her.

I will tell my aunt that I don’t want to marry Robert... She wasn’t a beggar, no matter what her aunt said... I would sooner be married to Tyrion again. If Lady Lysa knew that, surely she’d send her away… away from Robert’s pouts and shakes and runny eyes, away from Marillion’s lingering looks, away from Petyr’s kisses. I will tell her. I will!

The fact that she can look back on her time in Kings Landing and view aspects of it as preferable to the future her current captors are planning for her shows just how close she is to being healed and fully reclaiming herself.

But then Marillion shows up and takes her to Lysa and he even willingly plays to drown out Sansa's screams as Lysa tries to kill her. When Littlefinger throws Lysa out the Moon Door and blames it on Marillion his rescue of Sansa successfully masks himself from the clarity she saw him with earlier when he kissed her. The near death experience and the fear of being blamed for Lysa's murder allow Littlefinger to step back into the role of a benevolent protector. Marillion is still Sansa's archetype for the pretty, charming, smiling threat and when she again sees Littlefinger as Marillion we'll know she's fully recovered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Myths - that was so amazing! great stuff

Ragnorak - reaaally interesting, I never realised that about her thoughts on Tyrion!

God I am learning so much on this thread! I'm about half-way done with Loras/Willas but I have to take a little break from the forum because I have several boring tests to study for this week. I will post it ASAP though!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wonderful write-up Ragnorak! :) Lady Lea is right; every time I read one of these presentations it's always eye opening.

I like your point about how both Cat and Lysa are charmed by Marillion, but Sansa just lists him as part of her aunt's entourage; it is indeed a sign of how much she's changed and the innocent zest that characterised her love of singers and songs is no longer present. Marillion's threat also highlights the dangers that Sansa faces now that's she no longer protected by high birth and status. I think Marillion is a despicable character all together, but Alayne being bastard born does embolden him to try to take advantage of her.

Marillion, and his subsequent imprisonment for Lysa's murder really dramatises LF's message that life is not a song. The songs Marillion sings during this time take on new meaning for Sansa as she experiences the guilt over pinning the murder on an innocent man, but still recognizes Marillion's culpability in helping Lysa to attack her. There's an interesting question to consider when Sansa, after she lies to Nestor Royce and the men about Marillion's involvement, thinks that Marillion won't dare to sing again, and falls asleep quite quickly. Now, did Marillion truly not sing, or is this symbolic of Sansa's gradual unscrupulousness in these dealings? Either way, I think her experiences with Marillion underscore how there's no clear line between good or bad people, or black and white actions. She has to go along with implicating Marillion to save herself, but he too is no innocent. How will this play out in her coming decision with Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir for example?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent analysis Ragnorak!

There is also an interesting correlation between Marrillion and Tyrion both being seen as guilty of other crimes and therefore their punishment for one of which they are innocent, being rationalized in Sansa's head. Sansa tells LF that Tyrion is innocent of murder and LF acknowledges this, but brings up the rape of Tysha and relates it back to Sansa as the same fate she might have endured, thereby justifying his execution. Similarly Marillion attempts to rape Sansa and is known to have forced himself on serving girls, which also helps ease Sansa's conscience when it comes to his fate.

I wonder if this will lead her to framing LF for a crime that he has not committed once she discovers his role in killing her father? In one way she will see justice done. LF will not be punished for the crimes he has committed but for something he hasn't done. Or will she personally kill LF, via hairnet etc, and set up someone else to take the fall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if this will lead her to framing LF for a crime that he has not committed once she discovers his role in killing her father? In one way she will see justice done. LF will not be punished for the crimes he has committed but for something he hasn't done. Or will she personally kill LF, via hairnet etc, and set up someone else to take the fall.

It's hard to think of a crime LF hasn't had a hand in :) But Sansa is learning about the need for "clean hands" so framing someone else to take the fall might just happen.

The fact that she can look back on her time in Kings Landing and view aspects of it as preferable to the future her current captors are planning for her shows just how close she is to being healed and fully reclaiming herself.

Good point. And I think it stresses just how much Sansa resents being forced into a marriage against her will. SR's illness just magnifies the sense of indignity and powerlessness she's experiencing.

But then Marillion shows up and takes her to Lysa and he even willingly plays to drown out Sansa's screams as Lysa tries to kill her. When Littlefinger throws Lysa out the Moon Door and blames it on Marillion his rescue of Sansa successfully masks himself from the clarity she saw him with earlier when he kissed her. The near death experience and the fear of being blamed for Lysa's murder allow Littlefinger to step back into the role of a benevolent protector. Marillion is still Sansa's archetype for the pretty, charming, smiling threat and when she again sees Littlefinger as Marillion we'll know she's fully recovered.

I agree. Beneath LF's cool, collected, "fatherly" exterior, we know he's just as reprehensible as the singer, with the same kind of sexual desires. LF however, is willing to wait for his victim, seducing and deceiving Sansa in order to make her come to him as it were. Marillion felt he had some power in Lysa's court, but ultimately we see the true power is vested with LF and he's much more skilled in wielding it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great analysis on Marmillion, Ragnorak!

I really liked this bit,

Sansa that left Winterfell would be enchanted at the mere notion of a singer and infinitely charmed by such a handsome one. Now his arrival doesn't even distract her from her own internal thoughts and feelings. She thinks of how the singers say the Vale of Arryn is beautiful and thinks wistfully of the musicians in Highgarden but the reality of a singer in her presence doesn't even evoke a single thought. She doesn't even think of him by name, he is only Lysa's singer, until he tries to rape her...”

Because it does show somehow the contrast between Sansa from game who came to court believing in songs and nice chivalry stuff while ignoring the fake smiles and intrigues and backstabbing that lay under the surface, and the woman Sansa is developing into.

& then there was this:

“Marillion first serves to illustrate just how much Sansa has changed. The two Tully women were both charmed by this young attractive singer and Sansa, formerly the most likely character of all to swoon over a handsome young singer, barely even makes note of his presence.”

This quote made me remember just how strong Sansa is. I can see and understand why Lysa turned out the way she did, yet Sansa, while still a child, had to suffer the worst physical and mental abuse one could think of, and it really shows you that despite all this Sansa can move on and adapt to her new environments without any really bad impacts the way the stillborn babe affected Lysa. Lysa sort of stayed in a teenage mind lever, while Sansa can move beyond that and has already done so, and in the future she will once again adapt to whatever George has in store for here.

This was just so true and beautiful besides!

Marillion embodies all that she thought ideal as a child and has now become her symbol of a hostile male, while the Hound who was the antithesis of the knightly ideal she had as a child now embodies that very ideal.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if this is a bit random, but I have a question for you all. I was looking back at the 'Moments of Foreshadowing' thread, and this post by SkaagosChef stood out to me:

I can't help but wonder....what do you all think of this assessment?

If you agree with this pessimistic (albeit completely valid) statement, how do you think it will relate (or has already related) to Sansa's storyline?

As someone who (perhaps unrealistically) hopes that Sansa might find 'love' of some sort (assuming that is something she still wants), I feel rather deflated whenever I consider the way 'love' works out in GRRM's universe. :(

ETA: I just wanted to add that most importantly for me is Sansa's agency in all this. I suppose if her storyline is more about avoiding 'fake love' than actually finding 'true love', then I can understand that. I might also add that I feel sad for all the characters who seem to be shown over and over again that they cannot (or even *should not*) have love, whether it be Jon, Robb, Dany, etc. I'm not just singling out Sansa here. I know with the other three I mentioned there is also the conflict with duty that is the biggest part of the problem -- they have to choose between the two, and it usually ends badly. I just wonder if maybe, if Sansa is presented with this 'duty vs. love' dilemma, if she might be the one to find a better way here. :dunno:

I've been wanting to comment on this since I first saw your post. I want to also echo what Lummel and KRBD said. I really don't think that is the message that Martin is sending us at all. The entire society is broken when you look at it. Spouses are killing each other, the NW is dying, the HS is is gaining in power via some very scary methods, years of war, small folk suffering, forced marriages, a corrupt KG, the challenges that come with the current method of inheritance and more. He's been breaking down the concepts of honor, duty, chivalry, and love since the first book and showing that how each of these are constructed in this world are subject to failure. Aemon's statement about love being the death of duty, Cersei's statement about love, and Mormont all speak to this. They are merely mouthpieces for the culture that they grew up in I think, rather than reflecting a truth.

I like Aemon (although I don't think he's the saint that some do - don't kill me) but all three are talking about the context of love within the existing structures of this society. Individuals are forced to pick personal happiness versus public duty. What was Cersei's comment to Ned, "you win or you die, there is no middle ground". I think this is an accurate statement of love in this current culture. I hope I don't sound to crass when I say this, but I call bullshit. It's one extreme or another versus the recognition that there can be a healthy middle ground.

As of now, we are slowly seeing the breakdown of many institutions that create what I think is an unnatural schism in Westeros. As KRBD pointed out, we've got many female characters set to move in to positions of power that doesn't seem to have existed before. Look at the North, there are almost no male heirs left, they are all dead. The Mormont women have been an exception, but they might become closer to the rule. We also know that Dany is going to come to Westeros. I have doubts that the IT will exist at the end of the series or that she will sit on it at the end. But, from what we have seen from Dany so far is that she is a force for social change. She is a queen in her own right and has already upended slavery. I think/hope we are going to see more of that from her. If we think about the female POV characters in the series so far, all have been subjected to forced marriages and patriarchal rule in a way that has victimized them. Martin has also used Cersei to give voice to the many ways that woman suffer under Westeros culture.

I really don't think the message that he is sending here is that love is bad or it kills us. I think the message he is sending us is that the current culture, a corrupt and rotten one, is the problem. All the signs are there, I think, that Westeros is going to be on a very different path than it was at the start of the series by the time the books are done. All the pieces are in place to make that happen. We have environmental challenges with the arrive of winter, greyscale and the pale mare, and years of warfare. In our world, events such as these have always led to positive social change for the individual. I'm expecting something to happen in ASOIAF. This is what will make love possible. Or at least I really hope so. Or I'm going to call Martin a huge troll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<snip>

Marillion, and his subsequent imprisonment for Lysa's murder really dramatises LF's message that life is not a song. The songs Marillion sings during this time take on new meaning for Sansa as she experiences the guilt over pinning the murder on an innocent man, but still recognizes Marillion's culpability in helping Lysa to attack her. There's an interesting question to consider when Sansa, after she lies to Nestor Royce and the men about Marillion's involvement, thinks that Marillion won't dare to sing again, and falls asleep quite quickly. Now, did Marillion truly not sing, or is this symbolic of Sansa's gradual unscrupulousness in these dealings? Either way, I think her experiences with Marillion underscore how there's no clear line between good or bad people, or black and white actions. She has to go along with implicating Marillion to save herself, but he too is no innocent. How will this play out in her coming decision with Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir for example?

Thank you.

I didn't write it up in one sitting and forgot to review the sections where he was singing in prison up until his death. I'll try and reread those and see if anything jumps out because you make some good points here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And could Marillion still be alive? I admit that the circumstances over his confession/death are a bit shady, but I can't imagine why LF would still be keeping him around, unless the singer has been in cahoots with him all along.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Arya Re-Read will hopefully be starting in November. With all these re-reads, there will be some really interesting textual and character analysis going on!

Whhhaaa....we're doing an Arya re-read!?! Excellent! :thumbsup:

Man, I have missed a lot! :frown5:

And could Marillion still be alive? I admit that the circumstances over his confession/death are a bit shady, but I can't imagine why LF would still be keeping him around, unless the singer has been in cahoots with him all along.

I seem to remember you suggesting this as a possibility in the past thread incarnations, brash. I don't know what use LF would have for him either , but I guess we have to wait and see if he pops up again....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whhhaaa....we're doing an Arya re-read!?! Excellent! :thumbsup:

Man, I have missed a lot! :frown5:

:) yes, rereading Arya should be insightful.

I seem to remember you suggesting this as a possibility in the past thread incarnations, brash. I don't know what use LF would have for him either , but I guess we have to wait and see if he pops up again....

I know... it's a crackpot I just can't seem to shake. Marillion is crafty enough and desperate enough to switch loyalties in a second, and messing with SR's mind wouldn't be out of the realm of imagination for LF to do. But you're right, we shall see! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ragnorak you make some really great observations. I never gave Marillion much thought other than he's an a--hole, but there really is a lot more to it than that. I especially liked this bit:

The Sansa that left Winterfell would be enchanted at the mere notion of a singer and infinitely charmed by such a handsome one. Now his arrival doesn't even distract her from her own internal thoughts and feelings. She thinks of how the singers say the Vale of Arryn is beautiful and thinks wistfully of the musicians in Highgarden but the reality of a singer in her presence doesn't even evoke a single thought. She doesn't even think of him by name, he is only Lysa's singer, until he tries to rape her.

Marillion first serves to illustrate just how much Sansa has changed. The two Tully women were both charmed by this young attractive singer and Sansa, formerly the most likely character of all to swoon over a handsome young singer, barely even makes note of his presence. His real impact on Sansa comes through his malevolence.

Given Sansa's early love of songs and the romantic notions she had of singers not to mention handsome men, it really is a complete turn around for her.

Marillion embodies all that she thought ideal as a child and has now become her symbol of a hostile male, while the Hound who was the antithesis of the knightly ideal she had as a child now embodies that very ideal.

Very nicely put.

The fact that she can look back on her time in Kings Landing and view aspects of it as preferable to the future her current captors are planning for her shows just how close she is to being healed and fully reclaiming herself.

But then Marillion shows up and takes her to Lysa and he even willingly plays to drown out Sansa's screams as Lysa tries to kill her. When Littlefinger throws Lysa out the Moon Door and blames it on Marillion his rescue of Sansa successfully masks himself from the clarity she saw him with earlier when he kissed her. The near death experience and the fear of being blamed for Lysa's murder allow Littlefinger to step back into the role of a benevolent protector. Marillion is still Sansa's archetype for the pretty, charming, smiling threat and when she again sees Littlefinger as Marillion we'll know she's fully recovered.

This is interesting. It also serves as another connection to Petyr's earlier statement to Sansa that life is not a song. Given that songs were so important to Sansa though, I hope this doesn't mean that Sansa is coming to give up on songs for good. I myself sing as a hobby and find songs and music to be very important aspects of life so I really hope we are not seeing a lesson here on how songs and singers are all bad. I am actually finding it quite frustrating that there seem to be no good singers in the story at all. Tom O Sevens isn't really that great and then there's guys like Marillion and Symon Silvertongue. Are there any decent singers that people would actually like? And where are the female singers? There does seem to be a lot of foreshadowing that Sansa is going to be the one to take down LF and I hope that means taking down all these negative views about songs right along with him.

Also, like Brashcandy, I really want to know if Marillion is still alive or if that even was Marillion at the trial. That whole thing was very fishy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been a busy week-end for me. I'll try to work some more on my Bronn Part 2, but it may be next week.

Ragnorak, great post. I forgot that Cat was actually charmed, though she was worldly enough to let it get to her like Lysa apparently did, by him. I like the contrast you set up. Lysa is someone who refused to grow out of the childish fantasies. Cat knew enough to navigate the actual world, but accepts it. Not exactly the wording I want, but I hope that kinda gets it across. Sansa, by time she meets him, is growing to become an active player. She doesn't evaluate him from the "singer" perspective, but what he is in relation to who actually has power.

I know... it's a crackpot I just can't seem to shake. Marillion is crafty enough and desperate enough to switch loyalties in a second, and messing with SR's mind wouldn't be out of the realm of imagination for LF to do. But you're right, we shall see! :)

It's Littlefinger. It's really just safer to assume a person is in his pocket.

This is interesting. It also serves as another connection to Petyr's earlier statement to Sansa that life is not a song. Given that songs were so important to Sansa though, I hope this doesn't mean that Sansa is coming to give up on songs for good. I myself sing as a hobby and find songs and music to be very important aspects of life so I really hope we are not seeing a lesson here on how songs and singers are all bad. I am actually finding it quite frustrating that there seem to be no good singers in the story at all. Tom O Sevens isn't really that great and then there's guys like Marillion and Symon Silvertongue. Are there any decent singers that people would actually like? And where are the female singers? There does seem to be a lot of foreshadowing that Sansa is going to be the one to take down LF and I hope that means taking down all these negative views about songs right along with him.

Well, there's the brother from the Night's Watch..... that Arya killed because he was a deserter.

Maybe Edmure is GRRM's totem for his view on singers. :rofl:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been a busy week-end for me. I'll try to work some more on my Bronn Part 2, but it may be next week.

Busy weekend indeed; you've even forgotten the character you're studying :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, there's the brother from the Night's Watch..... that Arya killed because he was a deserter.

Maybe Edmure is GRRM's totem for his view on singers. :rofl:

Right, Daeron is another jerk of a singer. I really am starting to wonder about GRRM's view of singers though on the other hand this whole story is called A Song of Ice and Fire so, idk.

Oh as I wrote that I just had a thought of a positive image of a singer, that being Rhaegar. He was known to play the harp beautifully, and he wrote songs that made all the ladies sigh. If you look at the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Lyanna was very taken with his sad songs. And we know Rhaegar was looking for the Prince that was Promised in the Song of Ice and Fire. Yay! GRRM likes songs and singers after all! :drunk:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, Daeron is another jerk of a singer. I really am starting to wonder about GRRM's view of singers though on the other hand this whole story is called A Song of Ice and Fire so, idk.

Oh as I wrote that I just had a thought of a positive image of a singer, that being Rhaegar. He was known to play the harp beautifully, and he wrote songs that made all the ladies sigh. If you look at the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Lyanna was very taken with his sad songs. And we know Rhaegar was looking for the Prince that was Promised in the Song of Ice and Fire. Yay! GRRM likes songs and singers after all! :drunk:

Is GRRM making a case that we have to keep all songs in perspective given his rather negative portrayal of singers in the series? I mean, so far, Sansa's song to Sandor is the only one we've seen that's come from a genuine place and had real impact. I too wonder what the larger theme is about, but I think it's important that Sansa realises the value of songs in her life despite her disillusionment.

ETA: Lyanna being taken with Rhaegar's sad songs makes her seem a bit like the old naive Sansa - not grasping the hidden messages - although this could just be me being cynical :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, Daeron is another jerk of a singer. I really am starting to wonder about GRRM's view of singers though on the other hand this whole story is called A Song of Ice and Fire so, idk.

My half baked theory on this: the title of this series is yet another subtle jab at typical fantasy. A few years after the events, songs made about them will feature The Prince in Disguise, the Exiled Princess, The Ugly Imp With A Heart of Gold, the Warrior Maiden and so on-leaving out the dark and dirty details and telling the story in broad clean strokes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is GRRM making a case that we have to keep all songs in perspective given his rather negative portrayal of singers in the series? I mean, so far, Sansa's song to Sandor is the only one we've seen that's come from a genuine place and had real impact. I too wonder what the larger theme is about, but I think it's important that Sansa realises the value of songs in her life despite her disillusionment.

ETA: Lyanna being taken with Rhaegar's sad songs makes her seem a bit like the old naive Sansa - not grasping the hidden messages - although this could just be me being cynical :)

That's true and the mother's song is a religious song. That seems important too though not sure how.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Busy weekend indeed; you've even forgotten the character you're studying :P

........ I'm preparing for when Sansa meets Bronn. I'll do Sandor too while I'm at it.

Right, Daeron is another jerk of a singer. I really am starting to wonder about GRRM's view of singers though on the other hand this whole story is called A Song of Ice and Fire so, idk.

Oh as I wrote that I just had a thought of a positive image of a singer, that being Rhaegar. He was known to play the harp beautifully, and he wrote songs that made all the ladies sigh. If you look at the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Lyanna was very taken with his sad songs. And we know Rhaegar was looking for the Prince that was Promised in the Song of Ice and Fire. Yay! GRRM likes songs and singers after all! :drunk:

Dunno. Rhaegar either a) kidnapped and raped a girl or B) recklessly ran off with a girl that resulted in the deaths of both of their fathers, her older brother, his wife, his daughter, maybe his son, and thousands of others. Either way, I dunno if I'd use him as a good example.

Though to be fair, I'm amused by the idea of GRRM having a personal grudge against singers, so I'll be looking for a way to make any look bad.

My half baked theory on this: the title of this series is yet another subtle jab at typical fantasy. A few years after the events, songs made about them will feature The Prince in Disguise, the Exiled Princess, The Ugly Imp With A Heart of Gold, the Warrior Maiden and so on-leaving out the dark and dirty details and telling the story in broad clean strokes.

Oh. I can already see it now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If GRRM has a personal grudge against singers, it would seem to be one specifically against charismatic *male* singers who are attractive to young ladies. The negative portrayals of singers seem limited to male characters in the series. Maybe back in the day a pretty-boy lead singer of a band stole the eye of a girl he liked...... :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×