Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa X

Recommended Posts

I'm not sure they liked her at alll, I'd say at most Garlan and Marg feel some pity for her but that's it. Olenna calls her stupid at one point and think Sansa would still go to Highgarden after the Tyrells so obviously abandoned her. Their treatment of Sansa after her marriage tells me how little they thought of her. The friendship from Sansa was genuine but I don't think that feeling was mutual.

Thinking about this, it probably is true. I still believe that they at least have some affections towards Sansa but there was no true friendship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good point about Sansa being seen in Highgarden, Elba. They would really have to make sure she wasn't implicated if they wanted to bring her there, and it didn't seem they took any precautions to avoid it... after all, a maester would have figured out that it was the Strangler, and they would look to the hairnet SANSA was wearing... it would look really really bad.

Given that Littlefinger was plotting with the Tyrells, it seems that the two parties' plans "diverged" when it came to their respective ideas as to Sansa's eventual fate. Olenna implies that she intends for Sansa to end up in Highgarden. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that, if Tyrion is arrested for murdering Joffrey (which seems to have been the Tyrells' intent), then Sansa's probably going to be arrested as well. Given that the Tyrells made no effort to get Sansa out of King's Landing, I think it's likely that they were never intending on "quietly" spiriting her away to Highgarden in secret. Had Littlefinger not stepped in, then presumably both Sansa and Tyrion would have been arrested, as per (apparently) the Tyrells' plan.

I think it's entirely possible that the plan (the Tyrells' plan, at least) was for Sansa to play the same "role" here as Cersei meant the Redwyne twins and Alla Tyrell to play in her "let's frame Margaery" plan: as the "falsely condemned" person whose ultimate acquittal is meant to legitimize the other (guilty) verdict(s). So Sansa and Tyrion are arrested, Sansa is acquitted (everyone "knows" she isn't the brightest bulb on the string, after all---worst case scenario is that if anyone connects the poison to her hairnet, (which honestly isn't even a guaranteed thing), then Sansa is coached to say that her husband gave her that hairnet, which would be a perfectly believable story, since after all she has no monetary resources of her own with which to acquire anything), while Tyrion is ultimately executed. By arresting and acquitting Sansa, the condemnation of Tyrion looks more "just" and less like a political maneuver (just like Cersei intended the ultimate acquittals of Alla Tyrell/the Redwyne twins to legitimize the guilty verdicts against the rest). With Sansa safely widowed and her name ultimately cleared of wrongdoing, the Tyrells would be able to marry Sansa to Willas (with little fear of the Lannisters trying to marry Sansa to their own candidate, given that Tommen would be marrying Margaery and the other eligible Lannister men (Lancel, Daven, etc.) were pledged to marry Freys as part of the agreement that brought about the Red Wedding).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good point about Sansa being seen in Highgarden, Elba. They would really have to make sure she wasn't implicated if they wanted to bring her there, and it didn't seem they took any precautions to avoid it... after all, a maester would have figured out that it was the Strangler, and they would look to the hairnet SANSA was wearing... it would look really really bad.

I think the Strangler is pretty exotic. And Pycelle..... well, I wouldn't worry too much about him.

Also, great write-up!

Given that Littlefinger was plotting with the Tyrells, it seems that the two parties' plans "diverged" when it came to their respective ideas as to Sansa's eventual fate. Olenna implies that she intends for Sansa to end up in Highgarden. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that, if Tyrion is arrested for murdering Joffrey (which seems to have been the Tyrells' intent), then Sansa's probably going to be arrested as well. Given that the Tyrells made no effort to get Sansa out of King's Landing, I think it's likely that they were never intending on "quietly" spiriting her away to Highgarden in secret. Had Littlefinger not stepped in, then presumably both Sansa and Tyrion would have been arrested, as per (apparently) the Tyrells' plan.

I think it's entirely possible that the plan (the Tyrells' plan, at least) was for Sansa to play the same "role" here as Cersei meant the Redwyne twins and Alla Tyrell to play in her "let's frame Margaery" plan: as the "falsely condemned" person whose ultimate acquittal is meant to legitimize the other (guilty) verdict(s). So Sansa and Tyrion are arrested, Sansa is acquitted (everyone "knows" she isn't the brightest bulb on the string, after all---worst case scenario is that if anyone connects the poison to her hairnet, (which honestly isn't even a guaranteed thing), then Sansa is coached to say that her husband gave her that hairnet, which would be a perfectly believable story, since after all she has no monetary resources of her own with which to acquire anything), while Tyrion is ultimately executed. By arresting and acquitting Sansa, the condemnation of Tyrion looks more "just" and less like a political maneuver (just like Cersei intended the ultimate acquittals of Alla Tyrell/the Redwyne twins to legitimize the guilty verdicts against the rest). With Sansa safely widowed and her name ultimately cleared of wrongdoing, the Tyrells would be able to marry Sansa to Willas (with little fear of the Lannisters trying to marry Sansa to their own candidate, given that Tommen would be marrying Margaery and the other eligible Lannister men (Lancel, Daven, etc.) were pledged to marry Freys as part of the agreement that brought about the Red Wedding).

Interesting. However, I don't see why they would drop Sansa after she married? Really, if they were not married, there would be no reason to connect Tyrion and Sansa together. Tyrion would still be blamed. Of course, just in case Pycelle was did turn out to know about the poison, they could always blame Sansa too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

THIS. I don't think the Tyrells took Sansa "under their wing" out of the goodness of their hearts (I'm not sure why some people believe so?). I think they figured since she was alone with really no family to protect her, that she would be very malleable.

I agree. I see the Tyrells (as a unit) being roses with poisoned thorns. I think they are very calculating and have put forth this lovely image of refined chivalry as a cover for being hard-hearted users and climbers. Remember Tyrion's observation that the Tyrells closed the Roseroad and helped cause the KL famine while Margaery was making a big show of "my marriage will open the Roseroad and feed the smallfolk!" The Tyrells are huge hypocrites. Contrast this with the Stark family (and needless to say Sansa is one :) ) who sincerely want to do well by their smallfolk and bannermen and have won ironclad loyalty in return. I have a feeling that the Tyrells' hypocrisy will turn around to bite them in the butt one day because they haven't done much to inspire real loyalty; their charity is just for show.

Ser Loras as teen idol: LOL. I thought the same thing when I read his passages! I had some fun mentally replacing "Loras Tyrell" with "Justin Bieber!" When I saw "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," there was a scene when Daniel Radcliffe was naked in the bathtub and a group of young girls broke out in shrieks. I can picture the same squeeing fangirls in the stands when Loras rides out.

And in real life Loras is kind of a jerkwad - just as Marillion is a jerkwad (Marillion's actually far worse than a mere "jerkwad" as he's a rapist). Sansa is really getting a lesson in surface appeal vs. integrity and character, and it's sticking - and she's got a far more mature perspective than many 13-year-olds already. Her lesson was hard-won but her change in viewpoint from GoT to SoS is remarkable.

(By the way, what is it with sandy-haired jerks in ASOIAF? Lancel Lannister had sandy hair, Gerris Drinkwater had sandy hair, and Marillion had sandy hair, and none of them are sympathetic. It makes me even more wary of HtH when he's said to have "sandy" hair! If you are in Westeros and meet a sandy-haired man, RUN!)

The Tyrells are the latest in a long line of people who 1) see Sansa as stupid, vacuous, and weak; and 2) are using her for their own ends and don't really see her as a person. Along with most (all?) of us here I see Sansa's character arc as becoming a person in her own right, with her own personality and her own life to lead, rather than a lady in a song or a means to an end. I feel this is much like Sansa being perhaps the only person in Sandor's life (except for his mother or sister and we don't know much about them) to see him as a human being, not a monster or a pet or a pet monster. The difference is that Sansa had a loving family whereas I don't think Sandor ever had much if any love in his childhood. But both are seen as things or claims. I surmise that Sandor's time on the Quiet Isle is going to be another experience being seen as a person; with Sansa, Mya, Lothor Brune and perhaps (I hope) eventually Sweetrobin will see her as a person.

If the whole hairnet/Purple Wedding incident was a setup by Littlefinger, it makes me think that not just his weakness for Sansa, but his own smarty-pantsness, will contribute to LF's downfall. It's pretty convoluted when you think about it - obtaining the poisoned hairnet, then making sure Sansa wears it, then having Olenna remove an amethyst and somehow get someone to plop it into Joffrey's goblet and THEN make it look like Tyrion and/or Sansa did it - it's pretty intricate if the object was just to poison Joffrey. It's also pretty intricate if LF just wanted his hands on Sansa. I think LF is pushing the envelope of nose-thumbing cleverness and will be tripped up by his own "ha ha I put one over on everybody" plots. He's already revealed a dangerous amount to Sansa. Underestimating her as usual.

And, agreeing that if GRRM denies Sansa the family and children she dreams of I will call troll. :) (It's bad enough that real life can troll people who desperately want kids and can't have them. :frown5: )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

{snip}

Tze, this was amazing!! It really puts the Tyrell's in perspective. I do have one question similar to Lord Bronn's regarding Sansa marrying Tyrion. When Sansa met with Marg and Olenna and they first ask her to go to Highgarden, are you saying that they knew then that Sansa was going to be married to Tyrion? Or did they not expect that and were hoping to get Sansa to Highgarden, but then when she was married off to Tyrion their plans changed along the lines of what you described? I guess this could be a timeline question too as I am trying to see where Tyrion marrying Sansa fits in because to me it seems that they didn't know about that when they first proposed taking Sansa to Highgarden.

ETA @KRBD, LOL re your comment about the sandy haired jerkwads! :-D Isn't Petyr also described as sandy haired with some grey? I have always preferred the tall, dark and mysterious (cough Sandor cough) type myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Elba & Lady Lea, seriously- wonderful works! So witty and insightful J

*Elba, about your analysis on Dontos: I’d never thought about it, but of course that Sansa & Dontos share a sort of similar background where belonging to families of traitors are concerned. Dontos went to KL, afraid of course of Aerys, and even when he died and Rpbert took over, instead of taking this time to shine and prove his worth, we see that he slowly sunk into a pit of wine and foolishness. Whereas Sansa went to KL, happily engaged to the heir to the throne, and when Joff became king, her world was destroyed. Yet what do we see so far about Sansa surviving crisis? She can overcome them where Dontos couldn’t and still, in the end since Dontos did not know if Sansa would indeed ever get out of KL for a certainty, it’s nice he wanted to help in sparing her the horrible tortures she was suffering.

Oh, and I really liked this bit:

“In the chapter where she first meets him in the godswood I noted how she prays for “a friend or a true knight”. Sansa's prayers seem to be coming true in unexpected ways, and I think Dontos showing up just after this is one of those ways. He does help her get out of King's Landing in the end...”

Whenever I read the Serpentine chapter, I was always happily focusing in thinking that the true knight Sansa prayed for appeared later on that evening in the shape of Sandor, yet I was ignoring that the other part of her prayer was answered. Dontos was in the end, her friend. Maybe he is a big difference to Sansa from Jeyne Poole, yet we see that he was sincere (sure, except for the reward money, but I can’t blame him for that. Saving Sansa was a nice goal to look forward to, yet when that was done he needed some money for when he grew old or whatever...) Brashcandy later on commented on how people who think Sandor only saw Sansa sort of like a friend and a replacement to the sister he lost were mistaken, since the way Sandor approaches Sansa is very different to the way Dontos approaches her, and likewise in how she thinks of them, so i agree that Dontos was her true friend, Sandor... something else, yet they were also important advisers to her in the long run.

As to your question, I do sympathize with him! J & I agree with Kittykat’s words about how Dontos must have been the sort of highlight in Sansa’s days when she was married to Tyrion.

Brash: I saw the article from NYLON magazine last night and besides agreeing that Sophie looks really pretty, I also instantly thought of Sandor when she said what she hopes happens to Sansa <3

& now to the great Tyrell brothers work by Lady Lea:

Its funny how I’d never realized what you pointed out about Sansa being afraid for Loras during the tourney cause she knows what a monster Gregor is, yet later on she wants him to go and kill him! I don’t know what George was thinking with this, but I think that the way Sansa wanted him to go slay the Mountain, and the way Loras behaved when he offered to go do the deed himself is the only point when these two were along the same lines in the story... about Sansa going all fan crushing over Loras, I cannot wait for that bit to be played out in the series! Since I’m reading Feast I remembered Cersei wishing Sandor was there so he could put an end to Loras’s presumptions and offends. I would have liked to read what Sandor would have said to Loras too...

About the intriguing Willas though... I think we might finally see him in the next book since George said IIRC that Highgarden and Casterly Rock will finally appear....

While i am sure Willas is way better than other potential suitors for Sansa, i’ve never really considered him the best guy out there for her. Mainly because as I see it, had she married him, she would have no voice any longer. There was some talk i think a few threads back on when Ned said what he wanted for Sansa: marrying a lord and taking care of his keep and giving him heirs and such. And while that is nice and very much like what i think Sansa wanted in the first book before joff came along, then her character would never have developed properly or completely. The same scenario would have happened had she gone to Highgarden. She would not have even be allowed to “charm” him the way she may very well charm Harry the Heir because Olenna qould have seen straight to her act, and since she has never really cared that much about Sansa, i don’t see her allowing her this much authority. The QoT thinks her a silly child anyways, and would have expected her to be meek and dutiful and obey Willas (whom knew best) rather than have Sansa ruling her beloved grandson and heir.

& even though Sansa showed an amazing maturity when she realized that Willas, apart from not being very handsome, may not very well love her at first sight, and that she would have to win his love with either babies or her claim, i don’t want to see her marrying someone who makes her feel she isn’t good enough to love by herself until she gives him something in return. I can see the parallels between Loras/Brandon, Sansa/Cat, Willas/Ned, and while Ned and Cat’s marriage was one of the best in Westeros we’ve seen even though they didn’t get married being madly in love, i think this was in part because there was such a lack of a women’s atmosphere in Winterfell, whereas in the Reach Sansa would have to stand the strong women of the Tyrell family, who might have very well decided not to let her grow as a person or to have a voice in the marriage... Or again, like Kitty said, “Perhaps I'm cynical, but I think if she had gone to Highgarden, her character development would have essentially stopped.

Tze, great words!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forgot to add: Brash, I add my chorus of thanks for the Sophie Turner interview link! I agree with her. (And I have much love for her acting and role as Sansa in the TV series.)

I found this other interview with Sophie Turner here as well (possible spoilers in link): http://gameofowns.co...t-with-vulture/

And she has this to say - a very interesting excerpt and goes along with what we are discussing in the threads (spoiler cut just in case):

I think the women are the ones with the real strength in the series, the mental strength, and you can see this divide clearly in the books — that the women are going to come to power. Although Sansa is in a very complicated position right now, in a state of domestic abuse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree. The Tyrells try to advance their position in KL. It goes from marrying Marg to Joff and then killing him so she can marry Tommen who would be easier to influece to trying to gain posts in the Small Council. Having Sansa in their hands would help them to strengthen their position because it would break the Lannister's claim of the North and take away a means to pressure Catelyn. That does not exclude however that Olenna and Marg like her, but it is secondary.

I'm not sure they liked her at alll, I'd say at most Garlan and Marg feel some pity for her but that's it. Olenna calls her stupid at one point and think Sansa would still go to Highgarden after the Tyrells so obviously abandoned her. Their treatment of Sansa after her marriage tells me how little they thought of her. The friendship from Sansa was genuine but I don't think that feeling was mutual.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Kittykatknits, here. I feel the Tyrells feel something akin to pity for Sansa, not friendship. Note that it didn't stop them from using her to as a means to an end. Though poor Sansa thought she finally found someone in the "den of lions", who was offering camaraderie.

I agree. I see the Tyrells (as a unit) being roses with poisoned thorns. I think they are very calculating and have put forth this lovely image of refined chivalry as a cover for being hard-hearted users and climbers. The Tyrells are huge hypocrites

Roses with poisoned thorns--very good analogy KRBD! I like it! :thumbsup:

As for the Tyrells being hypocrites, I think they've learned how to play "the game" very well, and to their advantage.

I have a feeling that the Tyrells' hypocrisy will turn around to bite them in the butt one day because they haven't done much to inspire real loyalty; their charity is just for show.

One can certainly hope, right? ;)

Ser Loras as teen idol: LOL. I thought the same thing when I read his passages! I had some fun mentally replacing "Loras Tyrell" with "Justin Bieber!"

:ack: (Sorry--I had to do it! :laugh: )

When I saw "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," there was a scene when Daniel Radcliffe was naked in the bathtub and a group of young girls broke out in shrieks. I can picture the same squeeing fangirls in the stands when Loras rides out.

Squeeing and fainting/crying maybe (like how people did with the Beatles? ) :D

And in real life Loras is kind of a jerkwad - just as Marillion is a jerkwad (Marillion's actually far worse than a mere "jerkwad" as he's a rapist). Sansa is really getting a lesson in surface appeal vs. integrity and character, and it's sticking - and she's got a far more mature perspective than many 13-year-olds already. Her lesson was hard-won but her change in viewpoint from GoT to SoS is remarkable.

Very true!

(By the way, what is it with sandy-haired jerks in ASOIAF? Lancel Lannister had sandy hair, Gerris Drinkwater had sandy hair, and Marillion had sandy hair, and none of them are sympathetic. It makes me even more wary of HtH when he's said to have "sandy" hair! If you are in Westeros and meet a sandy-haired man, RUN!)

Good observation! I'm not sure exactly why it is, but maybe it has to do with the theme of "blonde hair/blue eyes" in Western society as being seen as "beautiful" (I don't think it holds much water in todays society, but in many places and times, it was considered the ideal), and probably therefore being "good"? Maybe it's being used in the lesson that you mentioned above, "surface appeal vs. character". I could be totally wrong but it's just a thought.

The Tyrells are the latest in a long line of people who 1) see Sansa as stupid, vacuous, and weak; and 2) are using her for their own ends and don't really see her as a person. Along with most (all?) of us here I see Sansa's character arc as becoming a person in her own right, with her own personality and her own life to lead, rather than a lady in a song or a means to an end. I feel this is much like Sansa being perhaps the only person in Sandor's life (except for his mother or sister and we don't know much about them) to see him as a human being, not a monster or a pet or a pet monster. The difference is that Sansa had a loving family whereas I don't think Sandor ever had much if any love in his childhood. But both are seen as things or claims. I surmise that Sandor's time on the Quiet Isle is going to be another experience being seen as a person; with Sansa, Mya, Lothor Brune and perhaps (I hope) eventually Sweetrobin will see her as a person.

Sometimes I think Sandor and Sansa are going to have to learn they are "greater than the sum of their parts".

I have always thought that one day, Sansa will find her own "song. I think the part of Sandor's attraction (which I think I stated in one of the other thread incarnations) to Sansa is that he sees much of himself in her, and I think maybe some of this sister he had. I think he understands the place where she was, when she was being held in Kings Landing--alone, young, afraid--but of course on another level he viewed her as "the princess" he needed to save ('cos we all know Sandor wanted to be a knight when he was a kid.) But I digress! :rolleyes:

If the whole hairnet/Purple Wedding incident was a setup by Littlefinger, it makes me think that not just his weakness for Sansa, but his own smarty-pantsness, will contribute to LF's downfall. It's pretty convoluted when you think about it - obtaining the poisoned hairnet, then making sure Sansa wears it, then having Olenna remove an amethyst and somehow get someone to plop it into Joffrey's goblet and THEN make it look like Tyrion and/or Sansa did it - it's pretty intricate if the object was just to poison Joffrey. It's also pretty intricate if LF just wanted his hands on Sansa. I think LF is pushing the envelope of nose-thumbing cleverness and will be tripped up by his own "ha ha I put one over on everybody" plots. He's already revealed a dangerous amount to Sansa. Underestimating her as usual. .

I think LF's involvement in the whole Purple Wedding/hairnet thing, just goes to show you how LONG he planned for that day. And that's the scary part. How far back did he really start plotting against the Starks? I'll bet it wasn't too long after he was rejected by Catelyn's father. I have a feeling he made a vow to himself to one day have the power to shape the lives of people around him, at his whim.

I do agree with you that LF might become overconfident, and slip up--possibly triggering his own demise. :devil:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I tend to look at things in terms of what we’re not talking about, and a big thing I noticed in looking at Robb and Sansa is that while the relationship between Sansa and Arya in AGOT gets dissected, we don’t talk a lot about Robb and Bran, which seems to parallel Sansa and Arya quite a bit. So, I’m going a bit off-plan, in that I’m bringing in Arya and Bran too, and focusing here only on AGOT, but this is just the starting point, and I’m thinking that the whole analysis will take several posts, over several weeks. Sorry. I’m going chronologically, so the parallels are a bit all over, but I’ve tried to use bold text to emphasize where appropriate.

<snip>

Myths, that must have taken alot of work to put together and I just wanted to say, Thank you. Truly wonderful post and a thought provoking delight to read.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My half baked theory on this: the title of this series is yet another subtle jab at typical fantasy. A few years after the events, songs made about them will feature The Prince in Disguise, the Exiled Princess, The Ugly Imp With A Heart of Gold, the Warrior Maiden and so on-leaving out the dark and dirty details and telling the story in broad clean strokes.

You had me in tears here! :lol: :lol:

But, I don't know Winter's Knight, I think I'm waiting for the Saturday Morning Cartoon: "The Adventures of The Hound and the She-Wolf". Can you imagine? :P :laugh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You had me in tears here! :lol: :lol:

But, I don't know Winter's Knight, I think I'm waiting for the Saturday Morning Cartoon: "The Adventures of The Hound and the She-Wolf". Can you imagine? :P :laugh:

Like this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do have one question similar to Lord Bronn's regarding Sansa marrying Tyrion. When Sansa met with Marg and Olenna and they first ask her to go to Highgarden, are you saying that they knew then that Sansa was going to be married to Tyrion? Or did they not expect that and were hoping to get Sansa to Highgarden, but then when she was married off to Tyrion their plans changed along the lines of what you described?

I think the Tyrells were unaware of the Lannisters' plans to marry Sansa to Tyrion during that first meeting, and that the details of the assassination plot probably mutated a bit when the Tyrion/Sansa wedding took place. During the first meeting between Sansa and Marg/Olenna, who were the Tyrells planning on blaming for Joffrey's murder? Was it Tyrion all along? It's possible, but I'd speculate that the Martells were the Tyrells' likely (primary) patsys at the beginning----Doran Martell had already been invited to take a seat on the Small Council, and Tyrion's death didn't really profit the Tyrells as much as either Doran's (or Oberyn's, depending on what the Tyrells knew) did (Tyrion was Master of Coin, a position they wanted for one of their own, but Tyrion seemed to dislike the job, and there were other ways to free up the position), especially given the ancient hatred between Sunspear and Highgarden. It might not have been coincidental that the first meeting discussing Joffrey (where the Tyrell women seemingly decided Joff had to go) also included some pretty bitchy sniping about the Red Viper from Olenna, as Olenna seems to blame Oberyn Martell for Willas's crippling, and Olenna does not strike me as the forgiving type.

When Sansa was married off to Tyrion, suddenly Tyrion's death profited them quite a bit more than previously. But the Tyrells needed a way to guarantee that Tyrion would get at least a portion of the blame so that Sansa could be widowed, and although Tywin hates Tyrion, he was also willing to go to war when Tyrion was kidnapped (and named Tyrion Hand of the King in his own place)---blaming an assassination on Tyrion would have been, from the Tyrells' POVs, a much more delicate proposition than blaming either Doran or Oberyn Martell, whose hatred of Tywin and House Lannister has to be well-known. By having Sansa initially implicated, but ultimately acquitted, the process was more likely to be "accepted" as legitimate, something that might not have been necessary to appease the power brokers in King's Landing had the accused been a member of House Martell. As things played out, such an action turned out to be unnecessary even with Tyrion as the sole accused, but I don't think the Tyrells necessarily realized that all along.

As to why the Tyrell women started shunning Sansa after her wedding, that decision makes sense if the Tyrells wanted "clean hands"---any associations between Sansa and the Tyrell women after the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion could have spooked the Lannisters once Joffrey was murdered, because if Tyrion was implicated, and Sansa along with him, then any "friends" of Sansa's could be looked at askance as well, and if Sansa had been hanging out with the Tyrells all along, then someone in the Lannister camp might have smelled a rat.

I'd have been curious to be a fly on the wall when the Tyrell women discovered that Doran Martell had sent his very Lannister-hating, very unmarried brother to King's Landing in his place. If Sansa hadn't fled the Red Keep, I suspect Oberyn Martell would have been immediately implicated along with Tyrion, because the Tyrells would have feared that a newly-widowed Sansa would have ended up in Sunspear, not Highgarden.

While i am sure Willas is way better than other potential suitors for Sansa, i’ve never really considered him the best guy out there for her. Mainly because as I see it, had she married him, she would have no voice any longer. There was some talk i think a few threads back on when Ned said what he wanted for Sansa: marrying a lord and taking care of his keep and giving him heirs and such. And while that is nice and very much like what i think Sansa wanted in the first book before joff came along, then her character would never have developed properly or completely. The same scenario would have happened had she gone to Highgarden. She would not have even be allowed to “charm” him the way she may very well charm Harry the Heir because Olenna qould have seen straight to her act, and since she has never really cared that much about Sansa, i don’t see her allowing her this much authority. The QoT thinks her a silly child anyways, and would have expected her to be meek and dutiful and obey Willas (whom knew best) rather than have Sansa ruling her beloved grandson and heir.

& even though Sansa showed an amazing maturity when she realized that Willas, apart from not being very handsome, may not very well love her at first sight, and that she would have to win his love with either babies or her claim, i don’t want to see her marrying someone who makes her feel she isn’t good enough to love by herself until she gives him something in return. I can see the parallels between Loras/Brandon, Sansa/Cat, Willas/Ned, and while Ned and Cat’s marriage was one of the best in Westeros we’ve seen even though they didn’t get married being madly in love, i think this was in part because there was such a lack of a women’s atmosphere in Winterfell, whereas in the Reach Sansa would have to stand the strong women of the Tyrell family, who might have very well decided not to let her grow as a person or to have a voice in the marriage... Or again, like Kitty said, “Perhaps I'm cynical, but I think if she had gone to Highgarden, her character development would have essentially stopped.

I think these are really good points. Sansa would have been just as powerless in Highgarden as she was in King's Landing, and I think by ASOS she had been through enough that she was never going to be satisfied with being the next Lady Alerie for the rest of her life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You had me in tears here! :lol: :lol:

But, I don't know Winter's Knight, I think I'm waiting for the Saturday Morning Cartoon: "The Adventures of The Hound and the She-Wolf". Can you imagine? :P :laugh:

Do you mean Arya, Sansa or both? ;)

(ps: just to annoy Kitty - hahahah - my headcanon for Willas is Rupert Friend and you can't make me change my mind!! lol)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With all the talk about singers and Marillion, you ladies had me thinking last night. And I came up with this:

I drew a minor comparison (minor because not everything "fits" --like as far as we know he's not married ,etc) of Marillion to Orpheus of Greek mythology:

Orpheus is a legendary musician, poet, and prophet in ancient Greek religion and myth. The major stories about him are centered on his ability to charm all living things and even stones (Remember at the point when Sansa meets him she is Alayne Stone) with his music, his attempt to retrieve his wife, Eurydice, from the underworld, and his death at the hands of those who could not hear his divine music. ( I did find the part about his death at the hands of those who couldn't hear his music very interesting. Remember Sweet Robin stating Marillion's singing kept him up all night, and Sansa heard it too. I need to look back to see if LF mentioned hearing music.) As an archetype of the inspired singer, Orpheus is one of the most significant figures in the reception of classical mythology in Western culture, portrayed or alluded to in countless forms of art and popular culture including poetry, opera, and painting

Greeks of the Classical age venerated Orpheus as the greatest of all poets and musicians. Poets said that Orpheus' music and singing could charm the birds, fish and wild beasts, coax the trees and rocks into dance, and divert the course of rivers. He was one of the handful of Greek heroes to visit the Underworld and return; his music and song even had power over Hades (In past threads I've likened LF to Hades in mythology--I'm stretching it but , maybe Brash has something when she mentions he might not be dead. Perhaps, he's not and has something planned against LF).

On the Greek mythology front, just before Marillion arrives, LF offers Sansa a pomegranate and she refuses. I think he picks out the seeds with a dagger (can't remember if it is the dagger.) LF carries Sansa off away from her father to the height of the world in the Eyrie, compared with Persephone who is carried off away from her mother to the Underworld. Other than being completely unbound and able to fully return to her father I don't have any insight into the pomegranate refusal or the mirror image parallels. Given Persephone's role in the seasons, especially her imprisonment bringing Winter and her freedom bringing Spring, there's some interesting ways to view this symbolism regarding a Sansa Stark whose motto is Winter is Coming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Tyrells were unaware of the Lannisters' plans to marry Sansa to Tyrion during that first meeting, and that the details of the assassination plot probably mutated a bit when the Tyrion/Sansa wedding took place. During the first meeting between Sansa and Marg/Olenna, who were the Tyrells planning on blaming for Joffrey's murder? Was it Tyrion all along? It's possible, but I'd speculate that the Martells were the Tyrells' likely (primary) patsys at the beginning----Doran Martell had already been invited to take a seat on the Small Council, and Tyrion's death didn't really profit the Tyrells as much as either Doran's (or Oberyn's, depending on what the Tyrells knew) did (Tyrion was Master of Coin, a position they wanted for one of their own, but Tyrion seemed to dislike the job, and there were other ways to free up the position), especially given the ancient hatred between Sunspear and Highgarden. It might not have been coincidental that the first meeting discussing Joffrey (where the Tyrell women seemingly decided Joff had to go) also included some pretty bitchy sniping about the Red Viper from Olenna, as Olenna seems to blame Oberyn Martell for Willas's crippling, and Olenna does not strike me as the forgiving type.

When Sansa was married off to Tyrion, suddenly Tyrion's death profited them quite a bit more than previously. But the Tyrells needed a way to guarantee that Tyrion would get at least a portion of the blame so that Sansa could be widowed, and although Tywin hates Tyrion, he was also willing to go to war when Tyrion was kidnapped (and named Tyrion Hand of the King in his own place)---blaming an assassination on Tyrion would have been, from the Tyrells' POVs, a much more delicate proposition than blaming either Doran or Oberyn Martell, whose hatred of Tywin and House Lannister has to be well-known. By having Sansa initially implicated, but ultimately acquitted, the process was more likely to be "accepted" as legitimate, something that might not have been necessary to appease the power brokers in King's Landing had the accused been a member of House Martell. As things played out, such an action turned out to be unnecessary even with Tyrion as the sole accused, but I don't think the Tyrells necessarily realized that all along.

This is very interesting, and certainly Oberyn seems relieved that no one accused him (he is famous for poisons after all) but even if the Tyrells were planning on blaming him, I think LF was planning to blame Tyrion all along. Supposedly getting the jousting dwaves for the wedding wasn't easy, it must have taken time to bring them all the way across the sea, no?

As to why the Tyrell women started shunning Sansa after her wedding, that decision makes sense if the Tyrells wanted "clean hands"---any associations between Sansa and the Tyrell women after the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion could have spooked the Lannisters once Joffrey was murdered, because if Tyrion was implicated, and Sansa along with him, then any "friends" of Sansa's could be looked at askance as well, and if Sansa had been hanging out with the Tyrells all along, then someone in the Lannister camp might have smelled a rat.

Oh that's great! I hadn't thought of that!

I'd have been curious to be a fly on the wall when the Tyrell women discovered that Doran Martell had sent his very Lannister-hating, very unmarried brother to King's Landing in his place. If Sansa hadn't fled the Red Keep, I suspect Oberyn Martell would have been immediately implicated along with Tyrion, because the Tyrells would have feared that a newly-widowed Sansa would have ended up in Sunspear, not Highgarden.

Oh my. I was going to say "but Ellaria was there!" and then I remembered Tywin offered Cersei to him, or wanted to anyway... dnw Sansa and Oberyn!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the Greek mythology front, just before Marillion arrives, LF offers Sansa a pomegranate and she refuses. I think he picks out the seeds with a dagger (can't remember if it is the dagger.) LF carries Sansa off away from her father to the height of the world in the Eyrie, compared with Persephone who is carried off away from her mother to the Underworld. Other than being completely unbound and able to fully return to her father I don't have any insight into the pomegranate refusal or the mirror image parallels. Given Persephone's role in the seasons, especially her imprisonment bringing Winter and her freedom bringing Spring, there's some interesting ways to view this symbolism regarding a Sansa Stark whose motto is Winter is Coming.

Hey Ragnorak! :) I made a big post about this in the Sansa Reread Thread (it was Version V and I think on page 18) if you want to take a gander at it. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

tze's theory on the Martells is fascinating. I always took it for granted that the Tyrells wanted to implicate Tyrion from the get-go, but this makes a lot of sense. And another potential marriage plot for Sansa that we never envisioned; good stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:lmao:

Thanks for that Lady Lea! :thumbsup: ( I had originally thought Arya, and I don't think poor Sandor could withstand both Stark girls on the road!) :P

Clearly I spend way too much time on ASOIAF tumblrs... ;) Here's another one for Arya and Sandor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×