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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa X

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Clearly I spend way too much time on ASOIAF tumblrs... ;) Here's another one for Arya and Sandor.

Thats ok! The ASOIAF tumblrs are chock full of good stuff! :thumbsup: (Err...Sandor's looking a bit portly there, no? :uhoh: :laugh: )

OT: I see you're a DA fan too!(That is Lady Mary right?) Excellent! :)

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Thats ok! The ASOIAF tumblrs are chock full of good stuff! :thumbsup: (Err...Sandor's looking a bit portly there, no? :uhoh: :laugh: )

OT: I see you're a DA fan too!(That is Lady Mary right?) Excellent! :)

I ammm! Lady Mary is my spirit animal

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Hey Ragnorak! :) I made a big post about this in the Sansa Reread Thread (it was Version V and I think on page 18) if you want to take a gander at it. :)

Loved it. Worthy of inclusion in any "Best of" Sansa collection. You gals have some wonderful stuff buried in those older threads.

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Loved it. Worthy of inclusion in any "Best of" Sansa collection. You gals have some wonderful stuff buried in those older threads.

Thank you, Ragnorak! I really enjoyed researching/writing it. I have quite a few more posts about myths in the older threads--please feel free to take a look if you'd like! :)

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*snip*

That is pretty interesting. I never thought of it before. But it does make sense. Wasn't the Martells brought there to make as a balance for the Tyrells? Of course, causing problems would only help them. If something happened to Tommen before Marg got pregnant (which is unlikely anytime soon, at least by Tommen), then the Martells would take the Tyrells place. Causing problems between the two Houses would secure those. Myrcella's marriage would likely be cancelled or she'd likely die. Either is a win for the Tyrells.

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tze's theory on the Martells is fascinating. I always took it for granted that the Tyrells wanted to implicate Tyrion from the get-go, but this makes a lot of sense. And another potential marriage plot for Sansa that we never envisioned; good stuff.

It makes Olenna look like a deeper player, witch is good.

You've all reread more times than me probably. Does this make sense?: The Tyrells were just hoping to pin the poisoning on someone else with a clear motive to kill Joff so it wouldn't ever get traced back to them. So they groomed Sansa as a possible patsy to take the fall (she was wearing the poison!). But they didn't really want to use her unless they had to feed someone to the Lions in defense of the Tyrell name. If all went well, they'd keep Sansa and do the Tze plan to add an extra alliance with the north to become the most connected family? Tyrion was another with motive to kill Joff, so they might have been hoping to kill 2 birds with 1 stone by pinning it on Tryion but the Tyrells couldn't have known that Cercei would help them make Tyrion the prime suspect right away. (Didn't Cercie shout out something accusatory?) So the Tyrells would have had to plan on the Tyrion thing not sticking due to his family connections. So to cover their bases they needed Sansa standing by as fallguy numero dos. Then, when everyone assumed Tyrion did it, the Tyrells probably relaxed a bit, feeling that Sansa was in no immediate danger because the blame had passed her over. So they were lax for a while and the lannisters were mightily distracted, and Petyr was able to move in and whisk her away.

Or it happened totally differently from that. Very unclear sequence of events with too much Dontos in that book. Dontos was such a dope that I tuned out for some of his pages, then regretted it later when he was suddenly up to something.

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Forgot to add: Brash, I add my chorus of thanks for the Sophie Turner interview link! I agree with her. (And I have much love for her acting and role as Sansa in the TV series.)

I found this other interview with Sophie Turner here as well (possible spoilers in link): http://gameofowns.co...t-with-vulture/

And she has this to say - a very interesting excerpt and goes along with what we are discussing in the threads (spoiler cut just in case):

I think the women are the ones with the real strength in the series, the mental strength, and you can see this divide clearly in the books — that the women are going to come to power. Although Sansa is in a very complicated position right now, in a state of domestic abuse.

Did anyone else notice what question was being asked when she gave that answer? )

Do you mean Arya, Sansa or both? ;)

(ps: just to annoy Kitty - hahahah - my headcanon for Willas is Rupert Friend and you can't make me change my mind!! lol)

I like DA. Lady Mary is the awesomest. And that Sansa link is hilarious. I bookmarked it.

Just wondering - do you guys think we will ever know what the plan really was?

The only way I could ever see that happening is with a Tyrell POV which I doubt will happen at this stage. Atlhough, Martin has said we will see Highgarden so it is possible we will learn more. My guess is that Martin will leave it to us to ponder over though. Seems his style. It's a bit like the question of why Mandon Moore tried to kill Tyrion.

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And that Sansa link is hilarious. I bookmarked it.

gurl I suggest you take a little look at that tumblr. there is not only one but 2 half-naked Sandor sketches that are just... unf

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Soooo guess what I finished way before I thought I would: LORAS & WILLAS TYRELL! Gosh I really did try my best here, I hope y'all like it!

Loras is the personification of everything Sansa loved about songs and knights. He is young, beautiful, talented in tourneys, gallant and flawlessly polite. It’s no surprise that she labels him “a true knight”.

Indeed, Loras has always reminded me of a teen idol. Well, hey there, Loras! With his boyish looks, wholesomeness, and “courtly love” routine, he is appealing but sexually non-threatening.

Loras, like everyone in KL, is playing a game, and he is damn good at it, like a true Tyrell (Cersei says he’s “Tyrell to the bone”). Just to continue with the popstar comparison – isn’t Sansa’s reaction to him adorably like fangirling? “she thought her heart would burst”, I feel ya, sis.

But what about Loras? Why does HE want to go? He, more than anyone else, knows why he won the joust, and why he wasn’t killed by Gregor at the spot. It’s obvious that the Mountain would kill him during a battle. Does he want revenge so badly? Does he think the Mountain wouldn’t slay a Tyrell? Does he really believe his own pretense of being a knight straight from a song? Or is he just being cocky, like a young Jaime Lannister, thinking he is invincible?

Well, you're right about the teen idol part - it is very obvious fangirling on her part (but hey, at that age, how typical). At her age, she probably doesn't have a clue he "plays for the other team" so to speak. She may not even know some guys do that.

If Sansa was a little older, she'd hear the rumours of his sexuality and at first think "they're all just jealous" and sulk a bit. And if she was truly a woman grown and more used to hearing such gossip, she'd likely just sigh and think "I should have known - what a childish crush I once had". Her father probably knew this about Loras, or at least heard talk of it - hence any feelings that Loras would be a poor match for her. Sansa wanted true love, so Eddard would not want her to end up as a beard for some closeted knight who's always off "praying" with Renly. (Actually, it's yet another way Sansa and Brienne run parallel - from what I've seen, it didn't seem to occur to Brienne about Renly either.) This also explains why she is not too savvy with her conversation with Loras on her way to The Dinner. This part of her POV is actually quite funny, at least I think so. Sansa worries so sincerely about having put off Loras' affections with her talk of battle, Renly's death and Margaery's grief over it, it doesn't occur to her that Loras is actually broken-hearted over it himself.

Another point about Loras which you raise is that he's quite an expert at working the crowd - seen most of all at the tournament where he makes Sansa swoon by giving her a rose. Later, Sansa is dismayed to learn she was just another girl in just another audience. Yeah, like a rock star, or a pro wrestler getting "cheap pops". It's a Tyrell specialty - and Loras loves it, he's got excellent skill at arms, but he's glory-seeking in the same way Jon Connington once was.

The other Tyrell who is an expert at this is Margaery. The Tyrells certainly know how to play the game in that respect, making commoners and nobles alike warm to them. Handing out food with their own hands, always appearing gracious and virtuous. The Tyrells always show the sweet flower, never the thorny stem that holds it up. The Queen of Thorns no doubt taught them all this lesson, but she seems to think the men too combative, egotistical, and oafish to "get it" (except maybe Willas). But I think she considers Margaery her star pupil. Margaery is loved by the commoners, and always has an orbit of people around her, seeking her favour. (One reason why Cersei sees her as a foe, no doubt.)

As it relates to Sansa, I think at first the Tyrells were drawing her into Margaery's orbit. I don't think this was entirely insincere. The Tyrells probably thought she was a good catch, not just for her claim, but also because Willas needed a wife and Sansa seemed to be the kind of wife they would want - maybe a bit docile, but she's also young and when she does come out of her shell, she's one of the few ladies with a natural talent for social interaction that could rival Margaery's own. (Tyrion saw it; you can bet the QoT would have too.)

When she is being forced to marry Tyrion, she desperately thinks of Willas and Highgarden, but then considers that it wouldn’t matter in the end who she married if everyone just wanted her for her claim. This is very sad, and speaks of her disillusionment with the institution of marriage – later in the books she thinks no one would ever marry her for love and that she doesn’t want to be married again.

Sansa dances with Garlan the Gallant at her reception, and he tells her about Willas giving her the nickname. He is nice. He knows what’s up with her wedding to the Imp, so of course all the Tyrells should too, but the rest of them all treat her coldly after the wedding, as if she had betrayed them, except for Margaery who looks at her with pity but also doesn’t talk to her.

Olenna talks to Sansa during the Red Wedding but of course she is getting the poison from Sansa’s hairnet. Does Olenna mean what she says about taking Sansa to Highgarden? Does she truly want to go on with the original plan after Tyrion is taken out of the picture, or is it hogwash and she stopped caring now that Sansa is only the dwarf’s leavings and thus not good enough for Willas?

Many speculate that Sansa meant nothing to the Tyrells, or that they did not really like her. I do not think so - they may have sincerely liked her. Doesn't mean they were above the political (impersonal) ends juttifying the means when it came to her, but I don't think that

The ever-judgemental QoT may have been dismayed at her being timid and not up to speed with all the courtly gamesmanship, but she has a very critical eye and takes her courtesies and match-making as seriously as Loras takes his jousting and swordplay. Then again, she is wise and with Sansa being young and a hostage, I think she understood it.

The Tyrells I am sure appreciated Sansa being brave enough to tell them what Joffrey was really like, and this was probably just to confirm what they had already heard. Part of their plan to spirit her away was perhaps also protection / gratitude for this (a small part).

However, when that fell apart, and Sansa ends up marrying Tyrion, they did what they had to do poltically with regard to shunning her. They were mostly aloof, they could not be seen showing too much association with her. After all, they had to discreetly bury any suggestion they had even tried to make off with her. The Lannisters had just skunked them, but they couldn't show they felt thwarted, and with Joffrey's poisoning coming up, it was furthermore unsafe for them to associate with her much anymore. Who would be blamed? Well, before Tyrion wedding her, it may indeed have been Oberyn they meant to blame, but from Sansa's wedding to Tyrion onwards, friendliness with her and suspicion of them would have gone hand in hand.

I do not think they genuinely disliked Sansa for her wedding Tyrion. They played the public role they had to play. Margaery I think genuinely liked her, and pited Sansa for the fact she had to marry the Imp at all, plus the fact that she knew Sansa would be blamed as a co-conspirator along with her unwanted husband. (Echoes of Roslin Frey here, perhaps.) They probably would have liked having her in the Tyrell family, but lines are drawn in a war that lead to tragic conclusions: so it was for Loras and Ser Royce, so it was as well for Margaery and Sansa.

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Yeah Tze's explanation of the Tyrells first pinning it on the Martells makes sense. I have to figure out the timeline better, but what it looks like so far is:

-Dontos gives Sansa the hairnet - this is all LF's plan.

-The Tyrells come to town and meet with/befriend Sansa and ask her to marry Willas. At this point then they have been plotting with LF, but I assume they don't know anything about the hairnet specifically and are thinking to pin Joff's murder somehow on the Martells.

-The Lannisters find out about the Tyrells planning on taking Sansa for Willas and hurriedly put together the forced marriage plan.

So, the only way this works for me is that LF was in fact the one to tell the Lannisters about it on purpose and this was part of his plan all along. All this time he was planning with the Tyrells, but we know he was also coming up with a way to get Sansa out of King's Landing, plus he'd want to get Sansa under his control in a way that she would have no one else to turn to and no where else to go. This does confirm our suspicions that LF was the one to tell the Lannisters about the Tyrells wanting to take Sansa to marry Willas.

-Once the marriage happens, the Tyrells drop Sansa like a hot potato and go back to plotting to kill Joff with LF and pin it on Tyrion and Sansa by association, all the while thinking that LF was always on their side and having no idea that he "betrayed" them to the Lannisters.

-In the meantime LF is also securing the dwarfs to joust at Joff and Marg's wedding knowing it would infuriate Tyrion and add fuel to the suspicion of him wanting Joff dead.

Wow, LF sure does play the long game, especially if you also consider how he manipulated things to get Ned to come to King's Landing and eventually get Ned killed. So far all his plans have gone perfectly and I think it's damn near time for something to go wrong for him!

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It's almost certain the Tyrells meant initially to pin the blame on the Martells (I've argued that before in QoT threads too, and it really does fit). Regardless of Willas's and Arianne's views on this, the rest of the families seem less keen on eachother, especially Olenna seems to want to take revenge for the maiming of Willas. There are probably old border disputes between the Dornish and the Reach in the background as well playing a part.

In any case, the Tyrells were probably initially meaning for the blame to be pinned on Oberyn and the Martells. However, it's important not to forget that they were still fine with Sansa carrying the murder weapon on her person. Had anyone with a brain, like Pycelle or similar, figured out that Sansa's hairnet was made of black amethysts from Asshai, nothing she could have said or done would have absolved her of the blame. She had a rock solid motive, or even motives (hatred for Joffrey and the Lannisters, revenge for her family, revenge for the slight of not being made queen of the realm). This means that even though I am sure the Tyrells hoped they could rope in the last Stark heir, they were still perfectly fine with sacrificing her as collateral, should Sansa have to take the blame for it.

I'm certain Littlefinger was behind Sansa carrying the hairnet, but the Tyrells did not object, nor try an alternative plan, which means they saw Sansa as an acceptable sacrifice for their own convenience.

Regarding the Tyrells distancing themselves from Sansa, they do, but interestingly, especially Garlan is not. He's nice to Tyrion and comments on Joffrey distroying the book Tyrion got him for a wedding gift, and later Garlan compliments Tyrion to Sansa, and dances with Sansa at the wedding. Is he in on the plot? The very coordinated Tyrell behaviour seems to indicate yes.

The Tyrells most likely wanted Sansa even after the Purple Wedding as an ideal solution, but in the end, they were perfectly fine with sacrificing her too, which means their possible affections really weren't that important. Margaery looked sadly at Sansa as well. What was she sad for? Having to not hang out with a girl she and her grandmother just pulled a "good cop, bad cop" number on, and who most people acknowledge as thicker than a brick? Or was she sad that she may be the death of Sansa, after all, and Margaery may not yet be as ruthless as her grandmother. Remember here too that the QoT is prone to paying people in old Tyrell gold, so she is not beyond cheating even "honourable" people if she can get away with it. Olenna is certainly no saint.

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Re Lady Lea's write up of Loras Tyrell:

Ha! Isn’t it delicious? Our little Sansa is growing up! She sees him as a pure, innocent, virginal creature, and then thinks about corrupting him and gets pretttty sexual with the imagery. It’s the first time she consciously has ~sexual thoughts~ I think. Interestingly, it’s HER doing the “ravishing”.

Him being so pure and virginal and above all passive is quite interesting. It really is Loras the teen idol here, who is ever so pretty and who Sansa can project some early dreams of awakening sexuality on, but who is ultimately very unthreatening and mostly chaste, really. He also fits the picture of idealised and chivalrous love, with his innocence and purity.

It's interesting to compare her thoughts and dreams of Loras with how she thinks and dreams of Sandor, since there is a huge difference between the two. Especially if we put this scene with Sansa thinking about how she wants to stroke Loras' chest and hair next to her dream sequence where she substitutes a naked and aroused Tyrion in her bed with Sandor.

Loras is passive, pretty and chaste, and Sansa is the one expressing the desire, while dream!Sandor is active, has a very physical precense and even though Sansa doesn't express her feelings about it, it has connotations of both threat and wishfulfillment and in her dream he is the one expressing desire for her, not the other way around.

There is also the Sweetrobin kiss where Sansa consciously tries to imagine Loras, but he morphs into Sandor. Again Loras gets to play the passive role. Sansa imagines kissing him. While Sandor gets the more active role "He took a song and a kiss". It's rather interesting how she thinks about these two in such different ways, since it's like she is trying hard to project her desires onto Loras, or what Loras stands for (the pretty idealised knight), but the one her subconscious is fantasising about desiring her is Sandor.

Interesting to consider here is also Sansa's constant wish to be loved for herself and that someone will want her for something else than her claim. In her dreams and fantasies, she keeps on placing Sandor in this role, as someone who is desiring her, not Winterfell or her family name.

Brienne does a bit of a similar thing with projecting whatever she thinks she should feel onto Renly, but she also fails at it like Sansa does here, and Renly morphs into Jaime, which is a far more threatening concept to her. Renly for Brienne represents the same teen idol idealised love as Loras does to Sansa, while Jaime takes the place of the flawed and not at all ideal love interest.

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Re Lady Lea's write up of Loras Tyrell:

Him being so pure and virginal and above all passive is quite interesting. It really is Loras the teen idol here, who is ever so pretty and who Sansa can project some early dreams of awakening sexuality on, but who is ultimately very unthreatening and mostly chaste, really. He also fits the picture of idealised and chivalrous love, with his innocence and purity.

It's interesting to compare her thoughts and dreams of Loras with how she thinks and dreams of Sandor, since there is a huge difference between the two. Especially if we put this scene with Sansa thinking about how she wants to strole Loras' chest and hair next to her dream sequence where she substitutes a naked and aroused Tyrion in her bed with Sandor.

Loras is passive, pretty and chaste, and Sansa is the one expressing the desire, while dream!Sandor is active, has a very physical precense and even though Sansa doesn't express her feelings about it, it has connotations of both threat and wishfulfillment and in her dream he is the one expressing desire for her, not the other way around.

There is also the Sweetrobin kiss where Sansa consciously tries to imagine Loras, but he morphs into Sandor. Again Loras gets to play the passive role. Sansa imagines kissing him. While Sandor gets the more active role "He took a song and a kiss". It's rather interesting how she thinks about these two in such different ways, since it's like she is trying hard to project her desires onto Loras, or what Loras stands for (the pretty idealised knight), but the one her subconscious is fantasising about desiring her is Sandor.

Interesting to consider here is also Sansa's constant wish to be loved for herself and that someone will want her for something else than her claim. In her dreams and fantasies, she keeps on placing Sandor in this role, as someone who is desiring her, not Winterfell or her family name.

Brienne does a bit of a similar thing with projecting whatever she thinks she should feel onto Renly, but she also fails at it like Sansa does here, and Renly morphs into Jaime, which is a far more threatening concept to her. Renly for Brienne represents the same teen idol idealised love as Loras does to Sansa, while Jaime takes the place of the flawed and not at all ideal love interest.

Our minds, they are becoming one!

Seriously, I wrote some stuff that was on very similar lines on the "Why are Sansa's fans so eager to find her a husband?" thread, although it was addressing that question not this. Sansa wants to be loved for herself, not her claim. She also has some very sexual and conflicting thoughts about Sandor. Would it be against the rules for me to re-post the part of my other post here that relates to this thread?

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Our minds, they are becoming one!

Seriously, I wrote some stuff that was on very similar lines on the "Why are Sansa's fans so eager to find her a husband?" thread, although it was addressing that question not this. Sansa wants to be loved for herself, not her claim. She also has some very sexual and conflicting thoughts about Sandor. Would it be against the rules for me to re-post the part of my other post here that relates to this thread?

I don't see why not, as long as it relates to the topic of this thread.

A lot of people miss in which position she is placing Sandor in in her dreams. For instance, in the dream sequence people "get" that he's taking the place of Tyrion, her husband. But what people perhaps miss is in what position relative to Sansa Tyrion is in the "real" example. He's naked and aroused, climbs into Sansa's bed and touches her breast. Interestingly as well, in the "real" sequence Sansa is terrified and closes her eyes, but in the dream sequence, her eyes are open. She didn't actually see Tyrion climb into bed. From this we can deduce that she does not feel the same about Tyrion and Sandor. There's also the cryptic comment about how he was "bigger than Tyrion had any right to be". The "had any right" choice of words is interesting since it indicates a negative and forbidding attitude towards Tyrion, and that it's almost like Tyrion tried to usurp someone else's place.

The scene ends too abruptly for us to know what Sansa thought of it, but later on while talking to Myranda and as she is asked whether she knows what goes on in marriage beds, Sansa answers in the affirmative and thinks of Tyrion and Sandor. Now Tyrion is understandable. He was her husband and she had to confront him naked, but Sandor comes out of left field here unless we consider the dream sequence as linked to Sansa's thoughts here.

In Sansa's mental dreamscape and internal fantasyland, she has created an image of Sandor that desires her (and despite being an image, it seems to be a realistic one: he still has his scars, his rasping voice and his perhaps less than charming demeanor). The question is: did she do this based on subconsciously piecing together clues that he was attracted to her, or did it happen independently? She doesn't seem to "get" it on the Serpentine Steps, so it almos seems to me that it's independently done.

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gurl I suggest you take a little look at that tumblr. there is not only one but 2 half-naked Sandor sketches that are just... unf

Lady Lea:

I know I've seen the one with the "strategically" placed sword, but there's another one!? Do tell! :wideeyed:

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Re Lady Lea's write up of Loras Tyrell:

Him being so pure and virginal and above all passive is quite interesting. It really is Loras the teen idol here, who is ever so pretty and who Sansa can project some early dreams of awakening sexuality on, but who is ultimately very unthreatening and mostly chaste, really. He also fits the picture of idealised and chivalrous love, with his innocence and purity.

It's interesting to compare her thoughts and dreams of Loras with how she thinks and dreams of Sandor, since there is a huge difference between the two. Especially if we put this scene with Sansa thinking about how she wants to stroke Loras' chest and hair next to her dream sequence where she substitutes a naked and aroused Tyrion in her bed with Sandor.

Loras is passive, pretty and chaste, and Sansa is the one expressing the desire, while dream!Sandor is active, has a very physical precense and even though Sansa doesn't express her feelings about it, it has connotations of both threat and wishfulfillment and in her dream he is the one expressing desire for her, not the other way around.

There is also the Sweetrobin kiss where Sansa consciously tries to imagine Loras, but he morphs into Sandor. Again Loras gets to play the passive role. Sansa imagines kissing him. While Sandor gets the more active role "He took a song and a kiss". It's rather interesting how she thinks about these two in such different ways, since it's like she is trying hard to project her desires onto Loras, or what Loras stands for (the pretty idealised knight), but the one her subconscious is fantasising about desiring her is Sandor.

Interesting to consider here is also Sansa's constant wish to be loved for herself and that someone will want her for something else than her claim. In her dreams and fantasies, she keeps on placing Sandor in this role, as someone who is desiring her, not Winterfell or her family name.

Brienne does a bit of a similar thing with projecting whatever she thinks she should feel onto Renly, but she also fails at it like Sansa does here, and Renly morphs into Jaime, which is a far more threatening concept to her. Renly for Brienne represents the same teen idol idealised love as Loras does to Sansa, while Jaime takes the place of the flawed and not at all ideal love interest.

I'd like to perhaps expand more on some of this later, but I just wanted to say that Loras here is the "safe" choice for Sansa. He's seemingly non-threatening in many ways. Sandor is more "real"--she might not yet understand what those dreams are telling her, but I think she'll get it in time.

Also, there is this: how many times have you noticed people becoming infatuated with people who are totally out of their reach (like desiring someone else's significant other), while the guy who's available and been in "the background" all the time gets overlooked. Someone who is unavailable is a "safe" choice too. I dunno, am I making any sense? :laugh:

EDIT: spelling...

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In Sansa's mental dreamscape and internal fantasyland, she has created an image of Sandor that desires her (and despite being an image, it seems to be a realistic one: he still has his scars, his rasping voice and his perhaps less than charming demeanor). The question is: did she do this based on subconsciously piecing together clues that he was attracted to her, or did it happen independently? She doesn't seem to "get" it on the Serpentine Steps, so it almos seems to me that it's independently done.

I also think it is almost independently done. We don't ever see her reflect on his actions during the conversation. The biggest realization that she seems to have is the meaning of a song. During their talk, she takes this quite literally and offers up Florian and Jonquil. The understanding comes later and then we have her dream where he climbs in to her marriage bed. The independent aspect comes from her imagining his kiss and the keeping of his cloak. I am not entirely certain that she still understands much of what he said or his actions yet.

Also, there is this: how many times have you noticed people becoming infatuated with people who are totally out of their reach (like desiring someone else's significant other), while the guy who's available and been in "the background" all the time gets overlooked. Someone who is unavailable is a "safe" choice too. I dunno, am I making any sense? :laugh:

Yes, you are making perfect sense. Most of my very early crushes were on those who were unavailable. I was ready to explore my feelings but not act on them. I didn't want to actually kiss or make out but I wanted to think about doing those. One of my earliest teenage idol crushes (and I'm putting my shame out her for everyone to see!) was the members of New Kids on the Block. Ye Gods. Sansa's thoughts on Loras reminded me of my thoughts on them. Chaste kisses and innocent flirting. I also had crushes on boys who were a grade or two ahead of me in school. Nothing would come of it so they were safe. The early crushes were mostly learning about and exploring new feelings. I certainly never put any of them in my marriage bed. :) Those fantasies came later..... :)

On a separate note about the Tyrells. We've talked in this thread on how they are very like the Lannisters, just as ruthless and scheming. But, being Roses, they have a more beautiful veneer with the thorns underneath. This discussion is really proving that point I think. We've seen a willingness to implicate the Martells, Tyrion, and Sansa. More exploration on the scheming and planning. Just as the Lannisters have the same sense of family versus everyone else, so do the Tyrells. Garlan loves his wife, but Leonette is not a member of the family in the same way at all. Both are concerned with their image. The biggest difference between the two families seems to be that the Tyrells have healthier family relationships while the Lannisters are almost completely dysfunctional.

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