From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa X

[Queen of Winter]

Ahh, sorry, Queen of Winter, I didn't mean to steal your thunder. Please do continue to expand upon this topic, I'm enjoying your thoughts! I too hope that he comes back from the Quiet Isle, different... no longer the Hound, but maybe more 'Sandor' than he's ever been? :)

No worries, Valkyrja! It's all good---I had just wanted to better collect my thoughts before posting is all. There was no thunder stealing involved! :)

I'm enjoying your thoughts too so...post away! :cheers:

I do think Sandor will still be cranky, have the same abrasiveness..... but he'll be Sandor (not the Hound anymore), but something in him will be "tempered". Kind of like how rough steel is tempered into a sword. :thumbsup:

EDIT: grammar

[Lummel]

No worries, thanks for looking it up again for me. I may have even read that thread, but its just been so long I completely forgot. :P

Lummel ~ I definitely wasn't saying that Sandor is an exact Fisher King parallel. But I have mentioned before that I thought it was interesting he was wounded in the leg, which is often seen as symbolic of losing one's masculine power. At one point I even wondered if poor Sandor might be.....uh...impotent now (which I suppose would make it easier for him to remain a monk, heh, but still.. :() However, because Stranger/Driftwood was still alive and kickin' (literally) and refusing to be gelded, I thought that might rather be more symbolic of Sandor himself. He might even be unable to fully recover enough to fight on foot, but could still potentially fight from horseback. (Which, incidentally, is what distinguishes a knight from a common foot soldier, technically at least. :P) If Sandor is to re-enter the story in a fighting capacity, that might be way. Anyhoo, even if not literally, at least symbolically Sandor's masculine/warrior power is at least somewhat diminished, for now, and I've mentioned before that this reminds me greatly of Jane Eyre with how Rochester was wounded in a way that at first seems to emasculate him (though Jane notes that he is just as brooding and moody as always, lol). I know that Sandor may not reenter the story, but it seems at least that his rage may end up being 'gentled', but he'll still retain his lovely cantakerous self. ;)

It was a good thread in my opinion, worth reading twice :)

I think for Sandor there is more mileage in the Mr Rochester comparison (and more hope if you are a San/San fan **shakes head in sorrow at the folly of the world**) than in the Fisher King. Mr Rochester after the fire is still sexually potent, but the author knocks him down to size for the sins of indulging himself in non-white/non-Englishwomen so that he can't be the dominant party in the relationship, Jane gets to wear the trousers instead.

There's no woman in the Fisher King's life (well maybe his daughter in old Welsh story that might be one of the sources), the kingdom is the Fisher King's woman. His virility works with the land to produce fertility. For me the Fisher King myth might be drawn on in Bran's story, perhaps in Daenerys' too.

Bran is crippled (and presumably rendered impotent), summer ends and death in the form of winter descends upon the land is exactly the Fisher King scenario. Possibly Daenerys' physical infertility is linked to her failure to bring forth from herself new political life in Meereen - her regime is stillborn, or aborted - but that's maybe too allegorical a reading :dunno: .

...Regarding the Fisher King.....I had been thinking of something similar to what you're saying. Right now Sandor is out of commission. His physical condition isn't so great (and neither is his mental state). More than likely he's unable to physically fight in batte. I guess in a way, you could say that it does make him "impotent". He's a swordsman-- he doesn't know how to do anything else...

I should think that he can fight better with a gammy (injured, dialect word) leg on horseback than on foot. The beast takes his weight rather than his knee or thigh or whatever. In series Beesbury in "The Hedge Knight" and Fireball's bastard son in "The Mystery Knight" both can joust despite injuries that mean they cannot walk or fight on foot.

In that sense Sandor isn't physically unable to fight, but the problem is psychological (or spiritual) if you prefer. Sandor has constructed an identity of hate based around knightly violence, which is why I doubt he'll return to the story as a physical fighter in knightly combat - it would surely be to easy for him to return to his old hate carved psychological rut, escape from which is what the Elder Brother offers on the Quiet Isle.

It's not enough to be potent, the potency has to have purpose and a healthy purpose to make a healthy person.

[Queen of Winter]

It was a good thread in my opinion, worth reading twice :)

I think for Sandor there is more mileage in the Mr Rochester comparison (and more hope if you are a San/San fan **shakes head in sorrow at the folly of the world**) than in the Fisher King. Mr Rochester after the fire is still sexually potent, but the author knocks him down to size for the sins of indulging himself in non-white/non-Englishwomen so that he can't be the dominant party in the relationship, Jane gets to wear the trousers instead.

There's no woman in the Fisher King's life (well maybe his daughter in old Welsh story that might be one of the sources), the kingdom is the Fisher King's woman. His virility works with the land to produce fertility. For me the Fisher King myth might be drawn on in Bran's story, perhaps in Daenerys' too.

Bran is crippled (and presumably rendered impotent), summer ends and death in the form of winter descends upon the land is exactly the Fisher King scenario. Possibly Daenerys' physical infertility is linked to her failure to bring forth from herself new political life in Meereen - her regime is stillborn, or aborted - but that's maybe too allegorical a reading :dunno: .

I should think that he can fight better with a gammy (injured, dialect word) leg on horseback than on foot. The beast takes his weight rather than his knee or thigh or whatever. In series Beesbury in "The Hedge Knight" and Fireball's bastard son in "The Mystery Knight" both can joust despite injuries that mean they cannot walk or fight on foot.

In that sense Sandor isn't physically unable to fight, but the problem is psychological (or spiritual) if you prefer. Sandor has constructed an identity of hate based around knightly violence, which is why I doubt he'll return to the story as a physical fighter in knightly combat - it would surely be to easy for him to return to his old hate carved psychological rut, escape from which is what the Elder Brother offers on the Quiet Isle.

It's not enough to be potent, the potency has to have purpose and a healthy purpose to make a healthy person.

What a great post! :)

Lummel, I've run out of "likes" for the day (WTH? Already?) so I have to do this instead:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Yes, that "dream" thread was very good IMHO. The Rochester thing has crossed my mind as well (I love the story "Jane Eyre" :rolleyes: !)

You do have a point about Sandor fighting on horseback vs. on foot.

It's not enough to be potent, the potency has to have purpose and a healthy purpose to make a healthy person.

.

I agree with you here. There would need to be a reason behind it. Sandor does need to find another purpose...another reason to exist, so to speak. He can’t go back to who/what he was.....so he’s going to need to remake/reinvent himself. I kind of thought Sandor's retreat to the QI would give him the opportunity to possibly become the man he never really had a chance to become when he was younger.

[Lummel]

...Yes, that "dream" thread was very good IMHO. The Rochester thing has crossed my mind as well (I love the story "Jane Eyre" :rolleyes: !)...

Glad you approve. Off topic but I read Jane Eyre for the first time last winter and was ...er...surprised by how much it was about sex. Admittedly between the lines, but I don't see how you can miss what is going on between Jane and Mr Rochester.

[Queen of Winter]

Glad you approve. Off topic but I read Jane Eyre for the first time last winter and was ...er...surprised by how much it was about sex. Admittedly between the lines, but I don't see how you can miss what is going on between Jane and Mr Rochester.

Well, you know.... those Victorian's and their thoughts about sex, (deny it exists!)etc...... ;)

[brashcandy]

Well, you know.... those Victorian's and their thoughts about sex, (deny it exists!)etc...... ;)

By the way some people react to that undercurrent in the Sansan relationship you'd think we were all still stereotypical Victorians. :rolleyes:

[Queen of Winter]

By the way some people react to that undercurrent in the Sansan relationship you'd think we were all still stereotypical Victorians. :rolleyes:

Seriously!

[Valkyrja]

Well, you know.... those Victorian's and their thoughts about sex, (deny it exists!)etc...... ;)

The whole thing with Rochester's unruly black stallion (*cough* Stranger *cough*), and how Jane is afraid of the beast and unable to handle him (she then has to get rather physically close to Rochester to bring him to the horse instead ;) ) -- this shows that at the beginning Jane is definitely 'overwhelmed' by Rochester's masculine power. Contrast with Blanche Ingram, who is an excellent rider (she can handle a horse, and therefore a man, hehe.). Controlling a horse was definitely a sign of control over masculine..er... power to the Victorians, imo...;)

[Queen of Winter]

The whole thing with Rochester's unruly black stallion (*cough* Stranger *cough*), and how Jane is afraid of the beast and unable to handle him (she then has to get rather physically close to Rochester to bring him to the horse instead ;) ) -- this shows that at the beginning Jane is definitely 'overwhelmed' by Rochester's masculine power. Contrast with Blanche Ingram, who is an excellent rider (she can handle a horse, and therefore a man, hehe.). Controlling a horse was definitely a sign of control over masculine power to the Victorians, imo...

Oh, interesting observation! ;)

(Also remember though, how Arya tried to steal Stranger and "he almost bit her face off")

[Valkyrja]

Oh, interesting observation! ;)

(Also remember though, how Arya tried to steal Stranger and "he almost bit her face off")

Haha, well, in most cases I would say that Stranger is mainly just channeling his master's rage. I don't mean to suggest that this is reflecting the symbolism of Jane Eyre the entire time. In most cases, Stranger is a bad-tempered stallion that Sandor has a soft-spot for. I wouldn't have even made the connection between Sandor-Stranger-sex/masculinity and Jane Eyre/Rochester's horse/Rochester's later injuries, if it weren't for the fact that the brothers on the QI were literally trying to GELD Stranger (while his master suffered from a LEG WOUND). The symbolism just screamed at me there. :P

I could be totally crackpot in my interpretations, but at this point these are just my personal observations, and I'm not making any set theories based on them. Just speculations. :)

[brashcandy]

Oh, interesting observation! ;)

(Also remember though, how Arya tried to steal Stranger and "he almost bit her face off")

Well, Cersei does "predict" that Sansa will be begging for the Stranger's kiss :blushing: Anyways, it's too early in the afternoon for this. Or should I just head over to LJ :P Back on topic!!!! Ummmm, yes, the fisher king!

[Valkyrja]

Well, Cersei does "predict" that Sansa will be begging for the Stranger's kiss :blushing: Anyways, it's too early in the afternoon for this. Or should I just head over to LJ :P Back on topic!!!! Ummmm, yes, the fisher king!

Haha, nice catch, I didn't make the connection. I love kissing horses' noses. :kiss: I know Sansa starts off as not very fond of horses, but maybe someday she'll manage to sneak a lil' kiss on his nose. (Or his master's....I'm not picky. ;) )

But uh....yeah.....back on topic.....where were we...? :blushing:

[Lyanna Stark]

In that sense Sandor isn't physically unable to fight, but the problem is psychological (or spiritual) if you prefer. Sandor has constructed an identity of hate based around knightly violence, which is why I doubt he'll return to the story as a physical fighter in knightly combat - it would surely be to easy for him to return to his old hate carved psychological rut, escape from which is what the Elder Brother offers on the Quiet Isle.

It's not enough to be potent, the potency has to have purpose and a healthy purpose to make a healthy person.

Maybe it's because I have read military history all summer and really got taken with the larger than life personalities involved in the 17th century warfare, but I can definitely see Sandor as a military commander in the style of Randyll Tarly. What makes Randyll Tarly so successful I think is that he is a soldier and he knows warfare inside out. Compared to someone like Mace Tyrell who is just a puffed up noble in search for glory, Tarly has the advantage of knowing warfare and knowing the limits of forced marches, sieges etc. Sandor has also been fighting practically and as we saw during the Siege of Kings Landing, he can command men without problems. Tyrion even notes that nobody would follow Ser Mandon Moore, but they would follow Sandor, meaning as much as he is considered a brute and a Lannister dog, his proficiency and ability are not called into question.

Judging by real life examples, there is no need to be perfectly physically fit to become a good, or even excellent, commander. The real life examples from the 30 year war during the 17th century of the larger than life personalities are the notorious alcoholic and womanizer Johan Baner and the long suffering rheumatic Lennart Torstenson who was so ill he had to lead the war from a stretcher, (both blessed with tiny wiki articles with nothing about their personalities, and even factual errors, like how Baner died "suddenly" at age 44 when it was actually cirrhosis after a life of heavy drinking and not exactly shocking, and that Torstenson suffered gout when it was actually rheumatism). Both were not exactly "fit" as far as warriors go, but they are both among the most excellent war commanders of the 17th century, known for their daring military tactics, their ruthlessness, the loyalty they managed to inspire despite poorly paid and equipped troops and above all how they despite their rather obvious physical handicaps manage to not only to be disproportionally successful, but also in being so while utilising inferior numbers to their opponents most of the time.

Hence, physical unfitness to be a warrior is no hindrance to becoming a good commander. Sandor also shares traits with both real life successful commanders and ASOIAF ones in that he has the necessary experience to inspire the trust in his know how. Sure, he used to be a Lannister, but in a situation where disaster looms, I am fairly certain Stark forces would rather follow someone practised at warfare than a complete n00b. (Interestingly, the real life examples I listed constantly sent angry letters home to Stockholm about being sent useless young noblemen to serve as officers at the front. "Green boys" as it were.)

[Lummel]

Well indeed. And if you think of Gustav Adolf II then ill health might be an advantage if it keeps you out of the firing line :)

[Caro99]

Valkyrja,

“Sandor on the other hand is literally a looming presence over her from the first minute they meet (when he puts a hand on her shoulder on the Kingsroad). After that, there is a lot of random touching going on between them while they are in KL. At that time, while they were both in KL together, Sandor was *not* someone who would be safe to fantasize about, because of that very physical element of their relationship that was already present. Its like, too much to fantasize about something that actually-could-maybe-kinda-sorta-totally-happen if you are not ready for it yet.”

Lol, that last bit I totally get what you’re trying to say and I agree! When Sandor was there his very presence might have been just too much for little Sansa to understand all that lay underneath the surface of the things he did and said, but just as he leaves KL we see her starting to think of him more and more until we reach the whole “she thought of the way the Hound has kissed her as Mya asked her if she knew what went on in bed...”

QoW:

“I kind of thought Sandor's retreat to the QI would give him the opportunity to possibly become the man he never really had a chance to become when he was younger.” Ohh :crying: that's lovely!

*Whenever i dare imagine a possible future for San/San i sort of make parallels between jane and rochester's relationship after Jane comes back to him, even though he is now maimed and blind. Sandor would be as i think was already mentioned earlier today, still moody and brooding and such, yet he would have gain a lot of nice qualities in the QI, and Sansa would be the one to make important decisions, yet Sandor wouldn't mind it one bit (there aren't many husbands in Westeros willing to happily allow their wives so much liberty (regardless of who has the higher birth) without expecting some political social climbing reward... Oh & i would have loved to see Sandor's smirk when he heard Stranger refused to be gelded! :lol:

Lyanna:

You brought up sooo many points that i really liked!!

- "Interesting to consider here is also Sansa's constant wish to be loved for herself and that someone will want her for something else than her claim. In her dreams and fantasies, she keeps on placing Sandor in this role, as someone who is desiring her, not Winterfell or her family name."

- Regarding her full cognitive desires though: does she realise it herself? Is it conscious enough that she would be able to actually think to herself "Yes, I am attracted to this guy". It seems that is still something she is not really ready to think about, or perhaps she also thinks it's pointless since she felt he left her behind and now is lost forever so what good would it do to ponder it?"""

i think she might realize that she is attracted to him when she sees him again. That long awaited meeting will provoke a lot of emotions that have been waiting to appear for months now and this meeting could very well decide if something will happen between them or not. At present it's natural that she isn't really registreing it since she believes there isn't a chance they'll ever see each other again, but if they do....

oh and you last post about military heroes made me think of Lord Nelson who could be compared to Rochester in being maimed and having lost the sight in one of his eyes, and then with Sandor with his military skills. Though Nelson was loved by England and Sandor isn't that well thought of in Westeros, it would be nice that many people remembered them later on for being great lovers- Nelson with a married woman & Sandor possibly with Lady Stark :)

[Queen of Winter]

Well, Cersei does "predict" that Sansa will be begging for the Stranger's kiss :blushing: Anyways, it's too early in the afternoon for this. Or should I just head over to LJ :P Back on topic!!!! Ummmm, yes, the fisher king!

Uggghhh, brash! :ack: :lol: :kiss: (BTW---what's going on on LJ? Somethin' good? ;) )

Haha, well, in most cases I would say that Stranger is mainly just channeling his master's rage. I don't mean to suggest that this is reflecting the symbolism of Jane Eyre the entire time. In most cases, Stranger is a bad-tempered stallion that Sandor has a soft-spot for. I wouldn't have even made the connection between Sandor-Stranger-sex/masculinity and Jane Eyre/Rochester's horse/Rochester's later injuries, if it weren't for the fact that the brothers on the QI were literally trying to GELD Stranger (while his master suffered from a LEG WOUND). The symbolism just screamed at me there. :P

I could be totally crackpot in my interpretations, but at this point these are just my personal observations, and I'm not making any set theories based on them. Just speculations. :)

Oh, I know! :) I do like the leg/gelding connection. And I have no problem with crackpots! :thumbsup:

[Lyanna Stark]

Well indeed. And if you think of Gustav Adolf II then ill health might be an advantage if it keeps you out of the firing line :)

Hah, indeed. But the reason I brought these two up is really because they had to take over the army and the warfare once Gustav II Adolf died, and lead the armies not as regent of the people, but simply as war commanders while an interim government lead their homeland, an interim government for a minor, perhaps not very unlike the situation that might arise in the North should Rickon return and Sansa form a sort of "interim government" for him until he comes of age, which also meant that they did not have the privilege a king (or an ASOIAF Lord) has of more "innate" loyalty or lack of criticism from their peers.

The men used as examples were both ruthless, hard men with at the time lacking warrior physique and a rag tag army which they were successful in leading only due to being extremely skilful, often daring, for their time quite modern strategically and also due to the trust they managed to install in said varied and ragtag army. Their successor Carl Gustaf Wrangel had a much harder time to wrestle the army into shape and to get it to do what he wanted (and he occasionally failed, at least initially) largely because he did not have the trust and loyalty that Baner and Torstenson inspired, due to their fearsome reputation and their skill. That said, neither of these men were gentle, honourable creatures. Along the Germans, Baner was know as "The Scorpion" and Torstenson as "The Snake" (incidentally both animal monikers too!), neither had much compunction when it came to thoroughly sacking, looting and pillaging the countries they were marching through either. So in essence, it was their fearsome reputation, not their positive reputation, that put the fear of God in their opponents. Sounds like someone we know? :)

Hence why I think that even though Sandor is potentially maimed enough that he will never be the fighter he was, there are real life examples to support that he could become a good commander. He's realistic, can be ruthless if needed and he is certainly familiar with the realities and practicalities of warfare. I'd say more so even than someone like Tywin Lannister, who while commanding armies does not strike me as an utterly brilliant tactician. He seems to rely more on brute force/numbers, money and "diplomacy" (Red Wedding) than he does pure military tactics or good know how of strategy.

Sandor's real life colleagues also weren't loved for their mild and kind personalities. Especially Baner was legendary for having a pretty bad temper, and evidently people still accepted this eccentricity due to the fact that the man knew what he was doing. And you know, the guy was a heavy drunk. Alcoholism or previous alcoholism is not a hindrance, it seems. Sandor seems to have the upper hand here since he's in rehabilitation camp at the QI.

oh and you last post about military heroes made me think of Lord Nelson who could be compared to Rochester in being maimed and having lost the sight in one of his eyes, and then with Sandor with his military skills. Though Nelson was loved by England and Sandor isn't that well thought of in Westeros, it would be nice that many people remembered them later on for being great lovers- Nelson with a married woman & Sandor possibly with Lady Stark :)

That's really interesting. I didn't know Nelson was maimed, but that only strengthens the theory that old maimed soldiers may very well end up being commanders instead and use their know how in that way.

(As a sidenote, the historian and author of the tome on the 30 year war kept referring to the commanders Baner and Torstenson and their ilk as "old war dogs" which made me snigger. ;) )

To conclude, from real life military history, it seems a fearsome reputation was generally seen as a good thing, and that armies at war tend to realise fairly quickly which commander gave them victories (or at least avoid defeat and routing) and which commander failed at giving his side victory and loot. The armies during the 30 year war were also ragtag and of several different nationalities and with different interests, which the commanders would have to bend to their will and impress with their skill, while not enjoying the privilege of absolute power a monarch/liege lord has.

Sandor certainly has the reputation (and even the animal moniker ready to go!) and the skillset too. The only thing he really needs is to manage to convince the northerners of him being on their side and that he wants them to win.

[Kittykatknits]

Uggghhh, brash! :ack: :lol: :kiss: (BTW---what's going on on LJ? Somethin' good? ;) )

SanSan fan communities of goodness and yumminess.

Also, this thread is active today. I'm gone for a few hours and there are 30 new posts. I'm not even going to try and comment on all those.

[brashcandy]

SanSan fan communities of goodness and yumminess.

Also, this thread is active today. I'm gone for a few hours and there are 30 new posts. I'm not even going to try and comment on all those.

That's treasonous kittykat :whip:

:P

[Kittykatknits]

That's treasonous kittykat :whip:

:P

I take it back! I take it back!!

In all seriousness, there is some stuff I want to comment on, I'll just sound more like an echo at this point though.