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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa X

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Oh well in that case, gloves off **spits on hands** ;)

:laugh: So, which do you prefer? :box: or :fencing:

:)

It might also be the nature of Persephone's existance. Summer is followed by her decent into Hades, there is no esape from it she must always return there, her release is only ever seasonal. The summer silks a top the winter white cloak is a representation of the year. The blood on the cloak is death, the old year must die before Persephone brings back the spring.

I like that idea too. Well said.

Clearly you're trying to induce massive breakdowns around the globe due to unsustainable levels of euphoria :)

:thumbsup:

Anyhoo, perhaps it's time for QoW to dust back off her Quiet Isle theories about the cave etc. CotF anyone?

Gee, is that a hint? ;) This thread is going to be the one that ate my brain..... :stillsick:

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:laugh: So, which do you prefer? :box: or :fencing:...

Well it depends...if my reach is longer than yours and if I weigh more than you then I'll go for the boxing gloves. Otherwise pistols at dawn Ma'am! (I'm not one for a fair fight if I can avoid it :) )

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Regarding Randa saying Sansa looks like an apple when she blushes - there is another reference to a pomegranate in relation to Sansa: when Olenna Tyrell is talking to Sansa in the meeting where she proposes the match with Willas, she mentions that Sansa looks like a pomegranate when she blushes.

Just clearly spelling out what you implied here.

Alayne Stone is the apple and Sansa Stark is the pomegranate.

Each fruit has its own mythological allusions. I'm not sure whether those myths will play out based on Sansa's view of her own identity or how others perceive her identity, but the distinction certainly has significant implications. There's also the fact that the apple in the Adam and Eve story was probably a pomegranate. The Sansa/Persephone and pomegranate references in general based on the Jon/Marsh parallels probably deserves a thread of its own.

A "thank you" to everyone for some great thought provoking insights.

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Well it depends...if my reach is longer than yours and if I weigh more than you then I'll go for the boxing gloves. Otherwise pistols at dawn Ma'am! (I'm not one for a fair fight if I can avoid it :) )

Errr... well, I'm short and considered small, so I'm probably going to be on the losing end of this one, no matter which method you choose! :laugh:

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Errr... well, I'm short and considered small, so I'm probably going to be on the losing end of this one, no matter which method you choose! :laugh:

Pistols at dawn my queen-seeing as your royalty,this humble knight shall fight for you.

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small but strong no doubt, and thick skinned too, I'd best be careful :)

ETA and I'm appalled, appalled and shocked Winter's Knight, that you're so eager to shoot at me! Would you change your mind if I changed my name to something with 'winter' in it to confuse your sense of allegiance?

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small but strong no doubt, and thick skinned too, I'd best be careful :)

ETA and I'm appalled, appalled and shocked Winter's Knight, that you're so eager to shoot at me! Would you change your mind if I changed my name to something with 'winter' in it to confuse your sense of allegiance?

Do so, and I shall name you traitor and present your lovely head to my liege!

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Just clearly spelling out what you implied here.

Alayne Stone is the apple and Sansa Stark is the pomegranate.

Each fruit has its own mythological allusions. I'm not sure whether those myths will play out based on Sansa's view of her own identity or how others perceive her identity, but the distinction certainly has significant implications. There's also the fact that the apple in the Adam and Eve story was probably a pomegranate. The Sansa/Persephone and pomegranate references in general based on the Jon/Marsh parallels probably deserves a thread of its own.

A "thank you" to everyone for some great thought provoking insights.

I know, this is all very fascinating :) As you noted, there's the question of perception going on here, and how people view Sansa. If we tie this into her "player" potential we are seeing others underestimating her or taking for granted that she can be easily consumed.

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Remind me to never eat a pomegranate again...

But in all honesty, just brilliant analysis. I think there's been a certain convergence in arcs between Sansa and Jon from the beginning- Both start out as somewhat sheltered and naive, and then have to a walk a mile in another's shoes, and come out stronger for it. You can probably compare Jon being forced to assimilate the wildling way of life to Sansa being forced to assimilate the "bastard" way of life. Now they seem to be the only 2 Starks in any position of political prominence/relation.

I like the observation that in terms of pomegranate imagery, Littlefinger and Bowen Marsh might inhabit similar roles. Both of them are essentially trying to appeal to Sansa and Jon's "base" instincts by getting them to accept their guidance and plans. Jon wouldn't go for it, and Sansa won't either. I also like the comparison between Jon and Sansa's compassion and how that plays out- Jon sees the wildlings as people worthy of protection even if most others don't, while Sansa recognizes the "humble pieces" that LF talks about as actual human beings, including Sweetrobin who LF largely sees as a claim (comparable to how Sansa was viewed by Tyrells and Lannisters in KL), but who Sansa largely sees as a sad child worthy of protection/guidance.

To tie the Persephone myth into the snow castle scene that Ragnorak discussed, how about Sansa as a Queen of Winter-type figure, with "winter entering her" right before she attempts to build the snow castle. This also ties back to Jon as well who has some very interesting interludes with snowflakes throughout ADWD.

Great stuff Tze and everyone else on here.

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Pistols at dawn my queen-seeing as your royalty, this humble knight shall fight for you.

Cool! :thumbsup:

small but strong no doubt, and thick skinned too, I'd best be careful :)

:laugh:

Do so, and I shall name you traitor and present your lovely head to my liege!

Thank you WK, though I think Lummel likes his head attached to his body! :D ;)

I know, this is all very fascinating

Definitely. I really enjoy hearing everyone's take on the multiple topics that run through this thread. There are some very knowledgeable and prolific posters here! :)

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Remind me to never eat a pomegranate again...

But in all honesty, just brilliant analysis. I think there's been a certain convergence in arcs between Sansa and Jon from the beginning- Both start out as somewhat sheltered and naive, and then have to a walk a mile in another's shoes, and come out stronger for it. You can probably compare Jon being forced to assimilate the wildling way of life to Sansa being forced to assimilate the "bastard" way of life. Now they seem to be the only 2 Starks in any position of political prominence/relation.

I like the observation that in terms of pomegranate imagery, Littlefinger and Bowen Marsh might inhabit similar roles. Both of them are essentially trying to appeal to Sansa and Jon's "base" instincts by getting them to accept their guidance and plans. Jon wouldn't go for it, and Sansa won't either. I also like the comparison between Jon and Sansa's compassion and how that plays out- Jon sees the wildlings as people worthy of protection even if most others don't, while Sansa recognizes the "humble pieces" that LF talks about as actual human beings, including Sweetrobin who LF largely sees as a claim (comparable to how Sansa was viewed by Tyrells and Lannisters in KL), but who Sansa largely sees as a sad child worthy of protection/guidance.

To tie the Persephone myth into the snow castle scene that Ragnorak discussed, how about Sansa as a Queen of Winter-type figure, with "winter entering her" right before she attempts to build the snow castle. This also ties back to Jon as well who has some very interesting interludes with snowflakes throughout ADWD.

Great stuff Tze and everyone else on here.

Almost every Jon chapter in Dance, if not every one, has falling snow or ice crystal imagery in a highly symbolic context and I've been meaning to revisit that trend to see what emerges when I have time. This is a Sansa thread so sticking with the topic I think that's an excellent observation that snow is such a powerful and defining aspect for both of them, especially in light of Tze's well drawn parallels stretching back to the beginning of the series. Sansa's clearly stands out more because Snow Winterfell is a primary focus in that chapter and such an amazing scene, but those repeated snow and ice crystal images with Jon are frought with meaning.

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Well winter is only just reaching the Vale - at altitude. It will be something to watch out for in TWOW if repeated snow and ice references feature in Sansa's chapters too.

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Just clearly spelling out what you implied here.

Alayne Stone is the apple and Sansa Stark is the pomegranate.

Each fruit has its own mythological allusions. I'm not sure whether those myths will play out based on Sansa's view of her own identity or how others perceive her identity, but the distinction certainly has significant implications. There's also the fact that the apple in the Adam and Eve story was probably a pomegranate. The Sansa/Persephone and pomegranate references in general based on the Jon/Marsh parallels probably deserves a thread of its own.

Ah, you're right, Alayne is the apple and Sansa the pomegranate.

I was googling pomegranates because I didn't know what fruit that was in Portuguese (turns out I've never seen one in my life - it's not very common where I live), and then I saw the etymology part on the wikipedia page:

The name pomegranate derives from medieval Latin pomum "apple" and granatum "seeded". This has influenced the common name for pomegranate in many languages (e.g. Granatapfel or Grenadine in German, grenade in French, pomogranà in venetian). Malum granatus, using the classical Latin word for apple, gives rise to the Italian name melograno, or less commonly melagrana.

Perhaps stemming from the old French word for the fruit, pomme-grenade, the pomegranate was known in early English as "apple of Grenada"—a term which today survives only in heraldic blazons. This is a folk etymology, confusing Latin granatus with the name of the Spanish city of Granada, which derives from Arabic.

So perhaps they are not such different fruits after all?

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Tze, your Jon/Sansa post was really helpful and insightful and good!

I really liked the bit where you explain how if Jon and Sansa were to meet again, since they have changed so much, it would really be like their first encounter- and what a great teary-eyed moment that will be! And the bit with identifying them with the regions of the south and north made me imagine a future with Sansa ruling the south and Jon the north at the Wall, or Jon in KL or something and Sansa as a regent/queen/lady of the north. & great catch on the black knights of the Wall- it made me recall how she has never really been personally linked with guys who are actual knights: Ned and her brothers and Joffrey and Sandor and Tyrion and Petyr and SweetRobin and Willas and HtH? aren’t knights… only Dontos and the kingsguard and Willas…

About Robb possibly having disinherited Sansa in his will, do y’all think this will be a benefit in the end for her? But it’s interesting to think that Jon could have been made the Lord of Winterfell due to Stannis, but knowing that the wall was “more to his taste” he rejected it. Maybe Sansa will do something similar here with rejecting before the end the Alayne Stone identity? Also, great catch on bastards not really dancing at feasts. It shows that when she was little Sansa at least must have paid more attention to Jon than what we have so far believed if she can gather quite accurately that dancing wasn’t something Jon would have either enjoyed or expected to participate in (I am thinking here of the feast to welcome Robert to Winterfell).

I enjoyed reading the bit of Sansa turning from a summer child to a winter child because apart from already being strong enough not to perish with summer passing away, winter children actually get to live longer than the summer knights who only live in songs and such… I loved the part of winter freeing Sansa and of Sansa being much more associated with death than it is believed (as bad as that sounds).

To finish up commenting on your analysis, these 3 quotes were great!

This distinction could be important to Sansa's future, given the Jon/Sansa parallels (and especially given the parallels Sansa's story already seems to have to the story of Snow White---the snow, the dwarves, fleeing the wicked Queen, etc.----and Snow White was of course "killed" by poisoned fruit).

I like this cause maybe by not accepting the fruit LF offered her, she will in the future reject the plans he has in store for her… & it could also be linked to Sansa Stark being “dead” at the moment thanks to Alayne Stone, a tool LF offered Sansa and which she did accept.

Wow about this:

Myranda (who claims she looks "like an apple" when she blushes) might play the role of the Wicked Queen here, poisoning Sansa at the feast to prevent her from ever marrying Harry the Heir. Sansa might "die" (or at the very least, fall into a coma) as the result of poisoning. (And notice Cersei's AFFC proclamation that Sansa "will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss". Snow White is, of course, eventually resurrected by a kiss.) But weaving the Persephone myth in to this could foreshadow Sansa being poisoned by a literal pomegranate (not an apple), and could indicate that any physical injuries caused by such a pomegranate could lead to Sansa's Old Gods-based powers thriving, as has been speculated elsewhere will happen to Jon.

While I am now fearing Myranda may be another “evil queen” (and Sansa has already overcome the first two, but three times the charmed) I think it fits nicely into Sansa begging for the Stranger’s kiss. And you’ve made me fear the feast to welcome Lord Robert Arryn to the gates of the Moon being written down for the sixth book!

This brought a good kind of chill to my heart!

She's become a Stone, and she's been told that a stone is a mountain's daughter. The cold winds are howling, and she thinks the cold winds are becoming a ghost wolf---is Sansa, she of the dead direwolf, en route to her own eventual death and resurrection?

QoW, besides writing even more wonderful comparisons with Greek tales and Sansa’s life, I want to comment on these two little things though:

He was definitely distraught, and I think that Sansa was able to pick up on it. I think it fits, especially when you think of all the times she's thought of him out of the blue, and all the times she's "dreamed" about him. Take a look at the stories of people that form "bonds" with one another, knowing without logical means when the other is in distress or when something is wrong.

I will always support the theory of Sansa sensing Sandor was almost dying of his injuries and therefore woke up with every nerve a tingle until George proves me wrong! It would be nice to see that they both faced the threat of dying on the same day only to be saved and recover and loose themselves into a new identity after it…

The Celts also believed that the first human beings were descendants of trees.

This made me think of Sandor looking like a north man and the people of the north are associated to the children of the forest, so maybe a reference in there somewhere..?

Tagganaro:

I also like the comparison between Jon and Sansa's compassion and how that plays out- Jon sees the wildlings as people worthy of protection even if most others don't, while Sansa recognizes the "humble pieces" that LF talks about as actual human beings, including Sweetrobin who LF largely sees as a claim (comparable to how Sansa was viewed by Tyrells and Lannisters in KL), but who Sansa largely sees as a sad child worthy of protection/guidance.

Jon was considered a turn cloak and Sansa a claim. Jon has gone through a lot of trouble to bring the wildings to his side of the wall now that he understands wildings, and was therefore stabbed. I hope that if Sansa does try to save her little cousin, LF won’t do anything like what Marsh did...

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pomegranate

apple

if I remember the french I was taught in school then potato and tomarto must also be similar fruits Lady Lea ;)

Oh yeah I figured it out already - pomegranate is romã in PT

Potato is pomme de terre in French, tomato is tomate

Of course I don't mean they are similar fruits literally, but if pomegranates have been referred to as seeded apples or apples of Granada, maybe they could be stand-ins for each other in the story

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I like this cause maybe by not accepting the fruit LF offered her, she will in the future reject the plans he has in store for her… & it could also be linked to Sansa Stark being “dead” at the moment thanks to Alayne Stone, a tool LF offered Sansa and which she did accept.

So Alayne will eat the poisoned fruit, and be reawakened as Sansa Stark, a Queen of Winter, with enhanced powers as tze was alluding to upthread... What's interesting is that everything Sansa has "hidden" connects to this Queen of winter/snow white imagery: there's the obvious Stark identity and her Northern affiliation; Sandor's bloodied white cloak which brings to mind imagery of blood on snow; and then there's the unkiss, which didn't take place, but which Sansa has very vivid memories of. (And let me just throw in her dwarf husband Tyrion here and the mythology seems complete) Notably, when she thinks of the unkiss in AFFC she states, "that day was done and so was Sansa." If Sansa reawakens, it stands to reason that these things and the people associated with them will play an important part in that rebirth.

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