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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa X

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Oh my god, I hate that I'm out of likes already today. QC1, you know I love your Sansa/GRRM posts. Lord Bronn, that was really really great. :)

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Sandor and Sansa’s relationship has been analyzed many times. With that said, I’m probably not breaking new ground here. But analysis of Sansa and how she has been influenced cannot leave Sandor out. So, here it goes. Also, this is Part 1 of 3. Part 2 will be CoK. Part 3 will be SoS and FoC.

Magnificent :) I'm sure I'll be saying the same for parts 2 and 3 and hell yes, you broke new ground.

I also want to point out I am a man in his mid-to-late twenties. Talking about a preteen/teenage girl’s sexuality is a bit weird for me. I tried to do it because I said I would write about Sandor’s influence on Sansa and because I may have a daughter someday (and how can I talk about sex with her when I can’t talk about a fictional character?), but it’s still a bit weird for me. So, while I will not consciously skip stuff, I may still miss stuff or be briefer than I should be.

I appreciate the effort and you covered it nicely ;)

So, the Sandor vs The Hound terminology is not GRRM telling us anything. The difference comes from Sansa’s own perception.

I really like the attention you paid to when she refers to him as "Sandor" vs. "The Hound". Given the later death of this persona, it seems like another reason to have hope for them as a couple.

] SanSan I think the part where Sansa defends herself is important. She tells an angry, drunk, child killer that he’s scaring her and want to go. Most people would be too scared to say anything. I think this is where (the possibility of) SanSan begins. They are both able to get through each other’s armor: Sandor’s anger and Sansa’s courtesy. If that is subtle, Sandor physically forces Sansa to look at him honestly. He further lets his guard down. Sansa’s fear changes to sadness. While it could draw pity, she is able empathize with Sandor.

Sandor's physicality is always emphasised in their interactions. As you note here, he forces Sansa to confront his scars, and they both grow closer as a result. However, it's interesting that she never seems to perceive this "closeness" as very unnerving, at least not in the same way as she does with others like LF who don't have the same threatening presence, but nevertheless unsettle her. Yes, she is aware of Sandor as a big, scary dude, so to speak, and also wary of him at times, but overall, their physical interactions always seem to give off a vibe of bodies meeting, not clashing. I'm afraid I didn't articulate that very well, but I hope you get my point. :)

The silence went on and on, so long that she began to grow afraid once more, but she was afraid for him now, not for herself. She found his massive shoulder with her hand. “He was no true knight,” she whispered to him.

The Hound threw back his head and roared. Sansa stumbled back, away from him, but he caught her arm. “No,” he growled at her, “no, little bird, he was no true knight.”

His sudden reaction startles her, but it does change the relationship. Little bird went from an angry mockery to a not-quite-yet-friendly nickname. The fact that she was able to keep her belief of story knights, stay in proper lady form, and deal with The Hound was what kept the nickname around.

I agree. Sandor is trying very hard here to shake her out of her complacency, but she's the one who turns the table on him by remaining true to herself and still being able to show concern and sympathy for him. I think this is classic Sansa power here, and I wish it were recognized more.

Little bird became a nickname just as Littlefinger or The Spider became names of the game players. It is important because of the way it came about. Littlefinger is haunted by the fact he is such a minor lordling and that fuels his ambition. Varys is a master manipulator who has his webs all over. And Sansa earned hers through empathy and the courtesy her mother taught her. Tyrion later sees this when he comments on what a good queen she would be. It may also change in some fashion in the Vale, but that is not the scope of this writing.

Great point. All the paramount players have their nicknames, and it's fitting that Sansa gets her own so early in the game. And the "little" is important. Just like Littlefinger her mentor is underestimated constantly, Sansa too manages to escape notice because those around her assume she's tractable. She's found a way to work within her cage until she can fly.

A random aside, part of me wonders if it wasn’t Rhaegar Targaryen who made Gregor a knight, would that have made difference. Although to the reader, Rhaegar is commonly presented positively, to Sansa, he was the guy kidnapped and raped her aunt. Is it a wonder he knighted someone like the Mountain? I wonder if it was someone she would have respected would that help make her see that the “true knight” is a rare breed if it exists at all.

Interesting. I don't know if it quite registered to her, but it would definitely have added to her sense of there being a clear line between true knights and other knights.

] Sex (sorta) It is not a direct theme, but the fact that The Hound waits to threaten her in her bedchamber seems to be foreshadowing the BBW scene.

Great catch! Indeed this entire scene parallels the BBW one, so your point definitely works.

] SanSan Not romantic, but Sansa cheering is an indication of her view of him after the events of the night before.

Any thoughts on why she isn't more freaked out? She's just been threatened and yet she can watch him "moist eyed and eager." This is why I'm always a bit frustrated when people simply declare that the Hound terrorised Sansa without bringing any kind of nuance into the reading. Yes, he's a harsh brute but it's so necessary to focus on how Sansa negotiates with his behaviour and responds to it. You really can't get any worse than someone threatening to kill you, and yet, she's able to see who's the real monster in the story. It also highlights her trust in herself and being able to keep a promise. This would have made for a spectacular story to tell Jeyne over lemoncakes, but she never says a word and is seemingly never tempted to betray Sandor.

] Sex Well, here’s the quote:

Sandor Clegane scooped her up around the waist and lifted her off the featherbed as she struggled feebly. Her blanket fell to the floor. Underneath she had only a thin bedgown to cover her nakedness. “Do as you’re bid, child,” Clegane said. “Dress.” He pushed her toward her wardrobe, almost gently.

So, he picks her out of bed and reveals her almost nakedness. That sounds rather sexual, and is a nice foreshadowing for sexual dream for him later. Also, he seems to spend a lot of time in Sansa’s bedroom certainly helps with the Sandor-sex connection. So… yeah.

Ha! I do think GRRM wants to focus on the spaces where they meet, so this is a useful observation :) Sansa's "space" is invaded here by the other KG as well, but Sandor is the one moving around the space and seems fairly comfortable already, getting her out of bed and directing her to her dresser. Their interaction here isn't sexual, but I do agree on the symbolic intimacy that gets heightened later on in the series.

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Lord Bronn,

I was looking forward to reading the Sandor analysis, and you didn’t disappoint! It was great and I cannot wait for the next parts!

So, Sandor vs. Hound:

No wonder Sansa is still unconsciously exploring what happened between her and sandor by the way you wrote that sandor was at times the hound and at time sandor! It would be fun to have some of her internal dialogues where she is trying to figure out his contradictive behavior, words, actions…

And I had never realized this:

It should be noted that at the very beginning Sansa is separating Sandor from The Hound. When she looks up to see whose protective hands are over her, she sees Sandor. But when he laughs, he becomes The Hound.

Game skill: just had today I loved this phrase, sort of like the sopranos: the cutthroat world of King’s Landing.

Foreshadowing: again, great catch with pointing out that Sandor sort of protected Lady (while being mean) just as he would protect Sansa later on. & i agree with this: “So, the Sandor vs The Hound terminology is not GRRM telling us anything. The difference comes from Sansa’s own perception...”

I think this is an important bit

The fact that she was able to keep her belief of story knights, stay in proper lady form, and deal with The Hound was what kept the nickname around.

Sandor could be considered one of the few men who like to challenge sansa’s views and take the time to know them. Sure LF does this too, but in the end he wants to control Sansa whereas with Sandor, i see him more as just giving his opinion and encouraging sansa to realize why she would take some decision, but in the end he would allow her to choose for herself, thus maybe sansa wouldn’t have to operate a la-QOT around Sandor. She has already the night they talked about his burns and on the rooftop challenged him and told him that she doesn’t agree with him one bit, and she stands her ground in the latter beautiful and what do we see happen then? Sandor instead of raging at her or something, feels sort of defeated and lets her keep her views. In the end we see Sansa lingering in Sandor’s mind at some levels that sandor isn’t in hers... at least not yet.

Totally understand what you are getting at here, and it does seem as if their relationship is build from little moments:

most crimes of passions and suicides are single moments. But only a moment is needed to change everything.
When she placer her hand on his shoulder and told him Gregor was no true knight. When he gently helps her up moves her forward or when he cuts off the garlic breath man to save her, or when he saves her from falling more than once and of course.... when she cups his cheek.

To finish up with part 1:

This is largely a build up for the final bit and to show how things have changed. Joffery reaches for her, and not for the first time, she goes to the protective hands of The Hound.

Wonderful <3 what a contrast from the first interaction between these 3!

Brash:

their physical interactions always seem to give off a vibe of bodies meeting, not clashing. I'm afraid I didn't articulate that very well, but I hope you get my point.

Oh you did, don’t worry!

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Brash:

Oh you did, don’t worry!

Caro, I know you'll get what I'm trying to say! ;) hehehe

And your post made mention of Bronn's point (which I wanted to highlight) on how Sandor protected Lady when everyone else was freaking out about the huge direwolf in camp. You know, I never saw it this way, but now that Bronn brought it up, it's a really good analysis of that moment, and highlights how he can deflect problems with that kind of mocking attitude that people don't over analyse. This isn't to say that Sandor wasn't still a complete ass in some of these scenes, but I appreciate the alternative reading, even if it just goes to show how being a jerk can still solve problems. :)

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Caro, I know you'll get what I'm trying to say! ;) hehehe

And your post made mention of Bronn's point (which I wanted to highlight) on how Sandor protected Lady when everyone else was freaking out about the huge direwolf in camp. You know, I never saw it this way, but now that Bronn brought it up, it's a really good analysis of that moment, and highlights how he can deflect problems with that kind of mocking attitude that people don't over analyse. This isn't to say that Sandor wasn't still a complete ass in some of these scenes, but I appreciate the alternative reading, even if it just goes to show how being a jerk can still solve problems. :)

i would indeed! :P i know, i hadn't seen what sandor's words caused, or if they were intended for a certain purpose or not at first. i think an example of sandor taking off the attention from sansa with joff later on would be during the whole backing-up lie with Dontos, and even with tommen fake-jousting.. i'm sure there more though, among all that we weren't witness to, like Joff talking to him about torturing sansa or something, and sandor saying something to make joff drop the idea :dunno: too crackpot maybe?

I agree, he may be a jerk at times but his attitude and "charming" way with people did save him from the accusations at first from the BWB. it wasn't until arya came along that he had to fight... stiil, he did say some pretty cool things then "the night may be dark but i'm the only terror here..." how badass does it sound? :cool4: lol

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Thanks for the support everyone.

1. Sandor's physicality is always emphasised in their interactions. As you note here, he forces Sansa to confront his scars, and they both grow closer as a result. However, it's interesting that she never seems to perceive this "closeness" as very unnerving, at least not in the same way as she does with others like LF who don't have the same threatening presence, but nevertheless unsettle her. Yes, she is aware of Sandor as a big, scary dude, so to speak, and also wary of him at times, but overall, their physical interactions always seem to give off a vibe of bodies meeting, not clashing. I'm afraid I didn't articulate that very well, but I hope you get my point. :)

2. Any thoughts on why she isn't more freaked out? She's just been threatened and yet she can watch him "moist eyed and eager." This is why I'm always a bit frustrated when people simply declare that the Hound terrorised Sansa without bringing any kind of nuance into the reading. Yes, he's a harsh brute but it's so necessary to focus on how Sansa negotiates with his behaviour and responds to it. You really can't get any worse than someone threatening to kill you, and yet, she's able to see who's the real monster in the story. It also highlights her trust in herself and being able to keep a promise. This would have made for a spectacular story to tell Jeyne over lemoncakes, but she never says a word and is seemingly never tempted to betray Sandor.

1. I think you did a good job at it.

2. I think it is a couple of things. Despite her not buying into his advice yet (stories are fake), she does get in his angry drunk way he was trying to help her. She sees his pain and sympathizes with him. He places a degree of trust in her when he told her his story. The usually makes people prone to side with someone and look past transgressions. Also, she is a Stark. While she takes threats to her life seriously, she's not going to be as worried (not the word I'm looking of, but since I can't think of it, it'll have to do) as most would be. And lastly, it's a story. The good brother triumphs over the wicked one.

I just realized. GRRM pulled one of his favorite tricks for Sansa (maybe others, but this Thread gets me to look at her chapters critically compared to others). He ends it with a big response and then nothing. Like he did when Littlefinger revealed his big plan at the end of FoC. It's quite possible Sansa chalked up the threat to Sandor being drunk and didn't think too much it (though just in case she kept quiet and also because Sansa was not a gossip with hurtful or embarrassing things).

Sandor could be considered one of the few men who like to challenge sansa’s views and take the time to know them. Sure LF does this too, but in the end he wants to control Sansa whereas with Sandor, i see him more as just giving his opinion and encouraging sansa to realize why she would take some decision, but in the end he would allow her to choose for herself, thus maybe sansa wouldn’t have to operate a la-QOT around Sandor. She has already the night they talked about his burns and on the rooftop challenged him and told him that she doesn’t agree with him one bit, and she stands her ground in the latter beautiful and what do we see happen then? Sandor instead of raging at her or something, feels sort of defeated and lets her keep her views. In the end we see Sansa lingering in Sandor’s mind at some levels that sandor isn’t in hers... at least not yet.

Good point. And one I missed. Sandor respects her choices.

And your post made mention of Bronn's point (which I wanted to highlight) on how Sandor protected Lady when everyone else was freaking out about the huge direwolf in camp. You know, I never saw it this way, but now that Bronn brought it up, it's a really good analysis of that moment, and highlights how he can deflect problems with that kind of mocking attitude that people don't over analyse. This isn't to say that Sandor wasn't still a complete ass in some of these scenes, but I appreciate the alternative reading, even if it just goes to show how being a jerk can still solve problems. :)

Yeah, something we've touched on in these Threads before, but I'm not sure if it's been stated, Sandor knows how to play the game. He's not a mastermind. And he's not ambitious. But he's been around Cersei and then Joffery for years. He's watched, payed attention and learned how to play in his own way. So, put that in another Sansa/Sandor similarity.

Random bits:

It was Sandor Clegane, not The Hound, who grabbed her hair and forced her to look at her dad's head on the pike. It made me wonder, but I couldn't think of anything. Maybe him forcing her to see another harsh truth.

I got it on the computer. I ran one search for Sandor. Mostly, I got Sansa chapters. Then, I went for hound. And I got various Arya chapters.

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I've been away for a while, but I've caught up with the threads and just wanted to say GREAT WORK! to QCI and Lord Bronn! Not to mention thanks to everyone who has kept this thread going strong over the last month or so. I've been traveling with very little internet, but I snatched moments here and there just to keep track of what you were all saying about our Sansa. :)

Cheers. :cheers:

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Lord Bronn, what an awesome job with the first part of your analysis! I've said it before and I'll say it again - I love this "rethinking" series because I find new things in the books I never would have seen by myself. (I want a "Re-Thinking Dany" thread for level-headed discussion of Dany...I know there's the Learning to Lead threads but I want one for just Dany...I'll try to find one.)

There's a lot going on with Sandor and Sansa interactions in just GoT itself. And great catch about Sansa being bestowed with the "Little Bird" nickname so early. (I agree with Caro99's and Brashcandy's followup comparing Little Bird to Littlefinger and how both were underestimated. I would add underestimated due to an amiable surface demeanor; Sansa with courtesy armor, Littlefinger with wittiness, both with charm and intelligence.)

Queen Cersei I, you brought up a lot of points that I overlooked, maybe in my Jaime/Brienne blindness. ;) Sansa is the only woman who disobeys her patriarch (even Cersei obeys hers) and she is portrayed as bad for it because Father Knows Best. I still think eleven is awfully young to make responsible decisions, but I agree with your larger point. Again, an example of how analysis and re-reads make me go back and look for things I hadn't seen before.

For some reason I couldn't get on the board most of yesterday evening and I'll be gone much of the day but I look forward to reading more and being able to reply when I have time!

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Yeah great posts on Sandor and the responses by Brashcandy and Caro. I don't have much time on line these days so it's hard to keep up but I wanted to jump in quickly with a few thoughts.

Regarding Sandor's comment about Lady and that it helped diffuse the tension growing in the village over seeing a huge direwolf, that's also something I had not noticed before. Great catch! I think it is a valid interpretation to view it as Sandor in his own brute way sort of protected Lady in that instance. I don't know that Sansa appreciated that though.

Also, the quote where Sandor lifts Sansa out of bed by the waist, I have to say, could be a scene lifted directly out of a romance novel. I'm not ashamed to admit I have read many and I can think of lots of times where the hulking strong guy picks up the woman that way, usually struggling because they always start off as antagonistic towards each other. I remember one quote which I can just imagine Sansa thinking - "Odious brute! Unhand me cur." (You know, reading historical romance novels is a great way to pick up some good vocabulary words). And yes, Brash regarding this quote:

"overall, their physical interactions always seem to give off a vibe of bodies meeting, not clashing."

I see what you are saying and I agree. Though their dialogue is often antagonistic towards each other, when it comes to the physical, it does seem as though their scenes are written as if they are moving with each other not against.

And Lord Bronn, I agree that Sandor is a good player of the game. All those years of skulking about in the background as a body guard have made him a very observant guy. He knows that everybody in King's Landing are big liars for example. I think it's one of the reasons he starts to become protective of Sansa, because he sees this young thing that's so out of her realm and not prepared for the kind of people and way of life she is heading into.

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h.

Also, the quote where Sandor lifts Sansa out of bed by the waist, I have to say, could be a scene lifted directly out of a romance novel. I'm not ashamed to admit I have read many and I can think of lots of times where the hulking strong guy picks up the woman that way, usually struggling because they always start off as antagonistic towards each other. I remember one quote which I can just imagine Sansa thinking - "Odious brute! Unhand me cur." (You know, reading historical romance novels is a great way to pick up some good vocabulary words). And yes, Brash regarding this quote:

"overall, their physical interactions always seem to give off a vibe of bodies meeting, not clashing."

I see what you are saying and I agree. Though their dialogue is often antagonistic towards each other, when it comes to the physical, it does seem as though their scenes are written as if they are moving with each other not against.

Elba and Brash ~ I'm glad *somebody* said it! My thoughts exactly! ;)

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I've missed this thread! Keeping up on a phone is to hard.

Also, the quote where Sandor lifts Sansa out of bed by the waist, I have to say, could be a scene lifted directly out of a romance novel. I'm not ashamed to admit I have read many and I can think of lots of times where the hulking strong guy picks up the woman that way, usually struggling because they always start off as antagonistic towards each other. I remember one quote which I can just imagine Sansa thinking - "Odious brute! Unhand me cur." (You know, reading historical romance novels is a great way to pick up some good vocabulary words). And yes, Brash regarding this quote:

"overall, their physical interactions always seem to give off a vibe of bodies meeting, not clashing."

I see what you are saying and I agree. Though their dialogue is often antagonistic towards each other, when it comes to the physical, it does seem as though their scenes are written as if they are moving with each other not against.

And Lord Bronn, I agree that Sandor is a good player of the game. All those years of skulking about in the background as a body guard have made him a very observant guy. He knows that everybody in King's Landing are big liars for example. I think it's one of the reasons he starts to become protective of Sansa, because he sees this young thing that's so out of her realm and not prepared for the kind of people and way of life she is heading into.

Elba and Brash ~ I'm glad *somebody* said it! My thoughts exactly! ;)

Yes, me too. We've had quite a bit of discussion on the nature of Sansa's POVs, that they tend to be very internal in nature. There are times when very big moments are only in a line or two, you blink and you miss it. You have to really work to see what else is actually happening, especially between these two as the words they say are only half the story. It's like their conversation on the serpentine steps, look at what they are physically doing and it adds a whole new element to the scene.

With these two, there relationship, for being a non-physical relationship, is still very physical. If we use the phrase action speaks louder than words, it applies very well to the two of them. Their words can be antagonistic in nature yet what they are actually doing is what tells us the full story.

And Elba, I've read lots of romance novel too, although none in recent years, but I agree with you on that scene. It reminded me of many where the man sweeps her off her feet. Although often, he's carrying her to bed rather than away from it. Either way, the imagery and wording are the same.

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I echo everyone else, this was amazing!

Sandor and Sansa’s relationship has been analyzed many times. With that said, I’m probably not breaking new ground here. But analysis of Sansa and how she has been influenced cannot leave Sandor out. So, here it goes. Also, this is Part 1 of 3. Part 2 will be CoK. Part 3 will be SoS and FoC.

Sandor vs The Hound

I saw Lady Candace’s point about Sansa considering Littlefinger and Petyr Baleish two different people. I wondered if it could apply to the Hound and then realized since the Hound persona has been passed twice, it’s definitely worth looking into.

It actually does work. He is Sandor when he is trying to help her. He is The Hound when he is threatening even if he doesn’t mean it. It makes for a boring read if I point out each and every instance, so I’ll only point out the important ones.

Beyond Sansa’s mental organization, this theme will include contradictions. Sandor wants the Little Bird to have her stories. The Hound hates the Little Bird and her stories. Sandor protects her. The Hound threatens her. Admittedly, this could possibly be a different theme, but the Sandor/Hound contrast just works so well.

Sex

As many have pointed out, the Hound is part of Sansa’s growing sexuality. Sex is not necessarily part of a relationship. Sure, they go hand and hand, but sex is an important part in its own right and can stand on its own. Personally, I feel it should be considered both as a part of SanSan and a separate theme of its own.

I also want to point out I am a man in his mid-to-late twenties. Talking about a preteen/teenage girl’s sexuality is a bit weird for me. I tried to do it because I said I would write about Sandor’s influence on Sansa and because I may have a daughter someday (and how can I talk about sex with her when I can’t talk about a fictional character?), but it’s still a bit weird for me. So, while I will not consciously skip stuff, I may still miss stuff or be briefer than I should be.

Having a young daughter, talking about a preteen girl's sexuality is weird for me too, but probably for very different reasons. :)

Great point on the different identities between Sandor and the Hound, one protect and the other threatens. Those are the two names that Sansa gives him when they interact. It's interisting that later in the series, when it comes to her sexuality, she avoids giving him a name. She describes his burned face when it comes to the dream. Later, in AFFC, she describes the cirumstances of their meeting but the man is just an anonymous "he", she isn't quite ready to give us a name yet here.

Foreshadowing Sandor protects Lady. He’s a dick about it, but his joke is helps stop the situation from going into full kill mode. Basically, foreshadowing how Sandor will try to help protect Sansa later (including still being a dick about it).

This is a great catch, like others I missed it too. I agree that it foreshadows that he will help Sansa later. I also subscribe to the theory that Sandor is her replacement for Lady so I see this as a bit of symbolism for that too. He's also protecting the role that he will also one day assume.

She found his massive shoulder with her hand. “He was no true knight,” she whispered to him.

The Hound threw back his head and roared. Sansa stumbled back, away from him, but he caught her arm. “No,” he growled at her, “no, little bird, he was no true knight.”

I always notice the way Sandor Clegan's actions are described, it has a very bestial feel to it and this is another example. He doesn't just laugh loudly or sarcastically. He throws his head back and roars at her. It's a very animalistic reaction from him and gives a very physical feel to his laugh. Sansa, of course, reacts to his bestial turn her, and notice he is the Hound in that moment, and stumbles away. But, he catches her and then we get a growl. It's a great response to her empathy and compassion. He's responding with his Hound persona and the description of his character certainly matches. It's as if he is fighting back against her a bit here.

Lots more to say and I'll continue a bit later this afteroon.

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I always notice the way Sandor Clegan's actions are described, it has a very bestial feel to it and this is another example. He doesn't just laugh loudly or sarcastically. He throws his head back and roars at her. It's a very animalistic reaction from him and gives a very physical feel to his laugh. Sansa, of course, reacts to his bestial turn her, and notice he is the Hound in that moment, and stumbles away. But, he catches her and then we get a growl. It's a great response to her empathy and compassion. He's responding with his Hound persona and the description of his character certainly matches. It's as if he is fighting back against her a bit here.

I agree that his reaction has a very animalistic quality to it. Strangely, when I recently re-read this part, I did not first realize that this 'roar' of his was supposed to be a laugh. 'Roaring' is often used as a term in Yorkshire to describe a child crying or in anguish -- 'after the bairn went for a burton he were roarin''. So, my first instinct was that Sandor/the Hound is in a great deal of pain, and one of the ways this filters out is through his sardonic, beast-like laughter at Sansa's naivety. What I'm trying to say is that yes, he is laughing at her, but there is an element of self-loathing and bitter anguish in that laughter.

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I have a lot of reading here, so I am not quite capable to said anything then THIS IS AMAZING...So, after I read all 3 treads about Sansa I missed, I`ll be back with my thoughts. About SanSan...You won`t hurt me...it describes everything...

BTW, it`s good to be back to my favorite thread

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No surprise but I still have more posts coming on Sandor. Shocking, I know, that I have lots of thoughts about him...

Ha! I do think GRRM wants to focus on the spaces where they meet, so this is a useful observation :) Sansa's "space" is invaded here by the other KG as well, but Sandor is the one moving around the space and seems fairly comfortable already, getting her out of bed and directing her to her dresser. Their interaction here isn't sexual, but I do agree on the symbolic intimacy that gets heightened later on in the series.

As I started reading your post, the word intimacy is the word I kept thinking of. Their relatioship is very intimate, although not necessarily in a sexual way. Many of their interactions are just the two of them, and many take place at night. Even when they are together with others around, the type of interaction turns it in to an intimate moment. The rescue of Sansa during the riot, we see her arms around him which means their bodies were pressed close together. On the road to KL, she back up in to him and he puts his hands on her. Again, they creat an intimate space amongst a crown of people.

I just realized. GRRM pulled one of his favorite tricks for Sansa (maybe others, but this Thread gets me to look at her chapters critically compared to others). He ends it with a big response and then nothing. Like he did when Littlefinger revealed his big plan at the end of FoC. It's quite possible Sansa chalked up the threat to Sandor being drunk and didn't think too much it (though just in case she kept quiet and also because Sansa was not a gossip with hurtful or embarrassing things).

Martin does this to a much greater extent with Sansa than he does other characters. It's an interisting mix with her, she's a very internal characater yet very often still does not reveal her thoughts to us. Several of her chapters end like this. We have the chapter in Clash with their conversation on the Serpentine steps. He says quite a bit to her towards the end of their conversation and then nothing. It happens again in Storm when she has her dream. She relays the content but does not give us a hint of any reaction to it. I've been noticing this quite a bit on re-reads. The other character I've noticed this happening with is Jon. A few of his chapters end rather abrubtly. Tyrion's do not, we get all his thoughts and reactions. Jaime reveals his thoughts but sometimes they are a bit ambigious. Just as she does not reveal herself to those around her, Sansa also does not always reveal herself to the readers. I think this is why we sometimes have to work at figuring out what happens with her, to get the fully story requires reading across many chapters and scenes with her. I think this extra bit of work is partly why she is either simplified or dismissed as a character.

Yeah, something we've touched on in these Threads before, but I'm not sure if it's been stated, Sandor knows how to play the game. He's not a mastermind. And he's not ambitious. But he's been around Cersei and then Joffery for years. He's watched, payed attention and learned how to play in his own way. So, put that in another Sansa/Sandor similarity.

It was Sandor Clegane, not The Hound, who grabbed her hair and forced her to look at her dad's head on the pike. It made me wonder, but I couldn't think of anything. Maybe him forcing her to see another harsh truth.

He's actually pretty good at it when he wants to be and is the one to really articulate what we see happening with LF, Dontos, and Sansa. In Storm, Sandor tells Arya that people see what they want to see. This is when he disguises himself as a farmer to get to the Twins. He is correct and notes that the knights should have recognized Stranger yet didn't. They saw a farmer and it never even occured that something else could be taking place when the farmer has a giant warhorse with him. Dontos tells Sansa the exact same thing, he hears and sees more as a fool than he ever did before. He's very accurate in his observation of Robert who didn't care about anythig unless he could "drink it, fight it, or fuck it." Best Robert summary I've ever heard. Sandor also knows how to play Joffrey, how to diffuse situations, lies when he feels he needs to. To some degree, his perception as merely the Lannister dog works in his favor, the same way Dontos benefits by being the fool. No one thinks about him.

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As I started reading your post, the word intimacy is the word I kept thinking of. Their relatioship is very intimate, although not necessarily in a sexual way. Many of their interactions are just the two of them, and many take place at night. Even when they are together with others around, the type of interaction turns it in to an intimate moment. The rescue of Sansa during the riot, we see her arms around him which means their bodies were pressed close together. On the road to KL, she back up in to him and he puts his hands on her. Again, they creat an intimate space amongst a crown of people.

The thing about their relationship, it is very internal and no one has any idea it exists. Arya, if she thought about The Hound's dying words, might be able to figure it out. But otherwise. I think it was the last Thread where we talked about how everyone overlooked him saving her during the riot. I noticed during the tourney. Why did she seem to be rooting for/expecting The Hound to win? Jamie and Loras fit the handsome knight bit more than Sandor. No one from Winterfell was still in. Sandor being Joffery's dog doesn't make much sense when you consider Jamie is his uncle (well, that she knows). Even when hints are shown, no one notices.

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The thing about their relationship, it is very internal and no one has any idea it exists. Arya, if she thought about The Hound's dying words, might be able to figure it out. But otherwise. I think it was the last Thread where we talked about how everyone overlooked him saving her during the riot. I noticed during the tourney. Why did she seem to be rooting for/expecting The Hound to win? Jamie and Loras fit the handsome knight bit more than Sandor. No one from Winterfell was still in. Sandor being Joffery's dog doesn't make much sense when you consider Jamie is his uncle (well, that she knows). Even when hints are shown, no one notices.

Exactly.

But Arya isn't really all that perceptive, or at least she's not as good at putting 2 and 2 together as people think. Maybe it's because she's too young. But she's actually told about the fake Arya going to Bolton and doesn't even consider what it means, she doesn't understand it when they say that Sansa married Tyrion, and she doesn't even realise that Sandor can't stop talking about her sister ("the pretty bird", "your pretty sister", and then the way he talks about her being courteous and a proper lady and "good for her", etc). Maybe it's because people always talked about Sansa favourably when near Arya. And if I was her, I don't think I would have thought much about his angry dying confession because it sounded like what he *really* wanted was to rape Sansa even though that's not really what he was saying.

But for the tourney, it is queer that no one asked why she was rooting for the Hound, isn't it? I mean, Littefinger was there, and he was always asking her about her opinions at the time (he asked why she thought sending Loras after Gregor in the Riverlands would be a good idea). And he knew who she was betting on, because she was all "is the Hound the champion now?" and "I knew the Hound would win". Even Ned, who was super jealous of Loras giving her a flower, didn't think twice on it, maybe because he thought the Hound was too lowly and ugly to ever merit Sansa's attention.

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But for the tourney, it is queer that no one asked why she was rooting for the Hound, isn't it? I mean, Littefinger was there, and he was always asking her about her opinions at the time (he asked why she thought sending Loras after Gregor in the Riverlands would be a good idea). And he knew who she was betting on, because she was all "is the Hound the champion now?" and "I knew the Hound would win". Even Ned, who was super jealous of Loras giving her a flower, didn't think twice on it, maybe because he thought the Hound was too lowly and ugly to ever merit Sansa's attention.

It is possible that they thought she was pleased Loras was saved, or she was supporting him as he was Joff's sworn sword. Or given the events with Sandor, Loras and Gregor everyone was concentrating on them. Either way, the fact no one knows about Sansa and Sandor having any interaction at all seems too much of a Checkov's Gun.

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It is possible that they thought she was pleased Loras was saved, or she was supporting him as he was Joff's sworn sword. Or given the events with Sandor, Loras and Gregor everyone was concentrating on them. Either way, the fact no one knows about Sansa and Sandor having any interaction at all seems too much of a Checkov's Gun.

This could be interesting in the next books. No one is ever present when they have their little convos and apparently no one knows about them. Not even Varys and LF. And when there IS something public, like the tourney, the riot, him giving her his cloak, etc, no one pays attention.

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One thing that I find interesting is that everyone dismisses Sansa in the story for thinking she is just a silly shallow girl (Cersei, Joffrey, the Tyrells, Tyrion, etc) when we know that she is playing a part and fooling everyone (she meets with Dontos to arrange an escape, Tyrion never has any clue about what she's thinking, etc). But at the same time so many readers act just like those characters who can't see past her exterior and are also fooled by her outward actions (being polite and keeping quiet) that they don't see what she's really thinking about or how her character developed or even the value of some of the things she does like not keeling.

Just want to add to this that Sansa is intelligent enough to perceive what her enemies think of her and wise enough to realize that their misconception actually works in her favor.

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