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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa X

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The thing about their relationship, it is very internal and no one has any idea it exists. Arya, if she thought about The Hound's dying words, might be able to figure it out. But otherwise. I think it was the last Thread where we talked about how everyone overlooked him saving her during the riot. I noticed during the tourney. Why did she seem to be rooting for/expecting The Hound to win? Jamie and Loras fit the handsome knight bit more than Sandor. No one from Winterfell was still in. Sandor being Joffery's dog doesn't make much sense when you consider Jamie is his uncle (well, that she knows). Even when hints are shown, no one notices.

This could be interesting in the next books. No one is ever present when they have their little convos and apparently no one knows about them. Not even Varys and LF. And when there IS something public, like the tourney, the riot, him giving her his cloak, etc, no one pays attention.

People see what they want to see and sometimes the best way to hide is in plain sight. Who would ever think that people as different as the Lannister dog and the silly, young Stark girl would ever have a reason to interact? In a court where everyone is consumed with intrigue and politics, the idea that these two would reach out and form a connection makes no sense really. The Hand's tourney can be dismissed as just Sansa's love for pageantry and the romance of the moment. It's possible that the Hound just happened to find her during the riot.

I'm pretty much convinced that this will matter later. LF has made efforts to isolate Sansa from everyone, yet hasn't said anything about Sandor Clegane. He's another one of Sansa's weapons that he won't see coming, and I think this applies whether Sandor ever appears in the story again. LF has absolutely no idea that she had someone teaching or providing advice before him. To his mind, Sansa is a blank slate that he can influence but we know this is not at all the case.

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Just want to add to this that Sansa is intelligent enough to perceive what her enemies think of her and wise enough to realize that their misconception actually works in her favor.

You're very right House Draper. I am working on my Dontos write up and Sansa and Dontos have a conversation about this very thing. I'll go into more detail in my write up (about 2/3 the way done everyone!) but Dontos tells her that Sansa is safer to let Joff and Cersei think she is stupid, because all the power players watch each other and spy on each other constantly but no one spares a thought on someone they believe is a lackwit like Lollys or a fool like Dontos. Sansa really does learn to use their misconception of her to great effect.

ETA and Kittykatknits I agree with you that the SanSan interactions are all going to come into play at some point and nobody, especially LF, will see it coming.

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Lord Bronn, what an awesome job with the first part of your analysis! I've said it before and I'll say it again - I love this "rethinking" series because I find new things in the books I never would have seen by myself. (I want a "Re-Thinking Dany" thread for level-headed discussion of Dany...I know there's the Learning to Lead threads but I want one for just Dany...I'll try to find one.)

I'm in! Dany needs a re-think desperately. She gets practically no level-headed discussion on this board and not much in the Learning to Lead thread.

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I'm in! Dany needs a re-think desperately. She gets practically no level-headed discussion on this boards and not much in the Learning to Lead thread.

There was a Dany re-read in progress at one point but it wasn't finished. I think it's in the re-read sub forum. I agree on the level-headed discussion with her, it's non existent on this board which is disappointing as she's a very complex character.

ETA: Maybe you should start one. ;)

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There was a Dany re-read in progress at one point but it wasn't finished. I think it's in the re-read sub forum. I agree on the level-headed discussion with her, it's non existent on this board which is disappointing as she's a very complex character.

ETA: Maybe you should start one. ;)

Well, first things first, I've got to write up my Sansa/Tyrion analysis! Might start a re-think on Dany after the Learning to Lead thread is complete. It could be a nice "sister" thread to Sansa. I actually like the idea of doing these for all the POV women. I think Georgie-boy writes women better than he writes men :cool4:

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Well, first things first, I've got to write up my Sansa/Tyrion analysis! Might start a re-think on Dany after the Learning to Lead thread is complete. It could be a nice "sister" thread to Sansa. I actually like the idea of doing these for all the POV women. I think Georgie-boy writes women better than he writes men :cool4:

I told Kitty that I want a Cersei one after we're done with Jaime! ;) I love her

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I told Kitty that I want a Cersei one after we're done with Jaime! ;) I love her

I find it hard to hate any of the female POVs, even Cersei. They all deserve some level-headed discussion!

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But Arya isn't really all that perceptive, or at least she's not as good at putting 2 and 2 together as people think. Maybe it's because she's too young. But she's actually told about the fake Arya going to Bolton and doesn't even consider what it means, she doesn't understand it when they say that Sansa married Tyrion, and she doesn't even realise that Sandor can't stop talking about her sister ("the pretty bird", "your pretty sister", and then the way he talks about her being courteous and a proper lady and "good for her", etc). Maybe it's because people always talked about Sansa favourably when near Arya. And if I was her, I don't think I would have thought much about his angry dying confession because it sounded like what he *really* wanted was to rape Sansa even though that's not really what he was saying.

I think Arya is pretty perceptive. I think it's largely her age and she spends most of her time from end of GoT on thinking of immediate surroundings. Really, what does any of it matter to her at the moment. She's perceptive, but not concerned with the larger picture. Really, when you need to worry about the murders and rapers who have you captured, the big picture means little. Add in her own worries about her life (will her family accept her after killing people), and you get someone who actively avoids thinking about the future in Winterfell.

Sansa on the other hand, spending her time in courts rather than on the road has learned to think in a big picture way. So, both are perceptive. It's just they learned to be perceptive in different ways. All the more reason the formerly titled Time of Wolves could have been called Don't Fuck With The Stark Sisters (though Dream of Spring isn't a bad second choice).

People see what they want to see and sometimes the best way to hide is in plain sight. Who would ever think that people as different as the Lannister dog and the silly, young Stark girl would ever have a reason to interact? In a court where everyone is consumed with intrigue and politics, the idea that these two would reach out and form a connection makes no sense really. The Hand's tourney can be dismissed as just Sansa's love for pageantry and the romance of the moment. It's possible that the Hound just happened to find her during the riot.

The thing I love is she supported him before Loras when he was fighting Jamie. This should have been been a sign. Then, (foreshadowing?) Littlefinger tells Sansa he wishes he tell her who would win the next match.

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ETA and Kittykatknits I agree with you that the SanSan interactions are all going to come into play at some point and nobody, especially LF, will see it coming.

Given how Martin has developed it so far, it should have both private and public impact. Lord Bronn's outline of SanSan, stories, and game skill really makes you appreciate his overall significance in her life.

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I feel she gets too easily ignored when she is right, like the Tyrells, she is right about them trying to take over and many readers act like she was doing a bad thing by moving against them, this is actually what made me hate the Tyrells).

If anyone needs a re-read thread, it's the Tyrells. Sneaky dishonourable so and so's from AGOT onwards. They are life the Mafia of Westeros.

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Kittykatknits, is there a re-reading Jaime thread? The board moves so fast that whenever I can't read or post for a time things go *whoosh* !

This weekend if I can I might just start that Re-Reading Dany thread, with the object being the same intelligent and thoughtful in-depth analysis going on here. As far as not liking Dany and participating - well, when I started reading these threads I already liked Sansa, but didn't think a lot about her or SanSan, which I've always casually shipped, in depth. But now I really, really like her and am totally pulling for her to end the series on a high note. I enjoy having my eyes opened, gaining a new appreciation for the characters, and going back to look at the books with new eyes. Like Literature class, but no course fees or grades. ;)

Lord Bronn - that makes two of us wrt the Red God. I don't like R'hllor or Melisande or that Red God fanatic religion either. At all. I'm very much an "old gods" kind of gal. And Rapsie - I am so over the Tyrells. LOL at the "Mafia of Westeros!"

On to the topic at hand: it is interesting that the Sandor and Sansa interactions have all been, so to speak, on the down-low. And I think it's that way for a reason and that will come into play later, and that it won't turn out pleasantly for Littlefinger. Rethinking what Sandor told Sansa, "A mockingbird will lie to you but never die for you" - I hope that doesn't turn out literally, though this is ASOIAF...More tomorrow and this weekend when I have some time to myself.

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This weekend if I can I might just start that Re-Reading Dany thread, with the object being the same intelligent and thoughtful in-depth analysis going on here.

House Draper is really interested in this too, and perhaps Winter's Knight could jump on board, but I do think that HD's suggestion of waiting until Learning to lead is finished is wise. And I would caution to have a firm plan in place before attempting such a major reread/rethink. These projects are not easy :)

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And I would caution to have a firm plan in place before attempting such a major reread/rethink. These projects are not easy :)

I would like to second that. The original re-read threads coverered two Sansa chapters a week and still took 3-4 months to go over. It is a very large commitment.

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Kittykatknits, is there a re-reading Jaime thread? The board moves so fast that whenever I can't read or post for a time things go *whoosh* !

Maybe Kittykat and LL can do a combined Jaime and Cersei?

Lady Lea and I are planning a Jaime re-read later on this year. We've been discussing approaches via PM. We want to do both Jaime and Cersi and have talked about whether to approach them together or separately. I love Jaime almost as much as I do Sandor and we both agree that Cersei is in need of serious analysis on this board beyond the usual threads that we've seen.

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If the focus is on Rethinking Dany rather than re-reading her, then a list of topics which tend to be the most controversial in Dany's storyline could be proposed to be hashed out by the thread hosts. That's just my suggestion though :)

Lady Lea and I are planning a Jaime re-read later on this year. We've been discussing approaches via PM. We want to do both Jaime and Cersi and have talked about whether to approach them together or separately. I love Jaime almost as much as I do Sandor and we both agree that Cersei is in need of serious analysis on this board beyond the usual threads that we've seen.

Sounds great. Either approach has value, but taking them together might yield some interesting insights. Really looking forward to this!

I would like to second that. The original re-read threads coverered two Sansa chapters a week and still took 3-4 months to go over. It is a very large commitment.

Yes, organisation is key, as well as getting the right people on board to share the burden.

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Thinking about it - a new re-thinking thread DOES look like a commitment, so I'll have to see if I can devote some time to it. I'll be sending some PM's.

Re Sandor and Sansa, it is interesting to observe that they tend to be defined (by the other characters) by their appearances. Sandor's height and strength, burned face and ferocity; Sansa's beauty and ladylike demeanor. They both have armor - Sandor's is literal armor and Sansa's is courtesy armor. They are both people that many others don't bother to really get to know, beyond that surface - Sansa is a "silly little girl" and Sandor is a (comparatively) low-born man who served as Cersei's Sworn Shield and later in the Kingsguard - somebody one could ignore while talking to Cersei or whomever. It's no wonder that their encounters take place when it's just the two of them mostly because they seem to be alone in their respective worlds. Sansa is friendless at King's Landing and I don't think Sandor has any friends. Sansa is learning self-reliance, and Sandor I am sure always had it, coming from the family that he had.

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House Draper is really interested in this too, and perhaps Winter's Knight could jump on board, but I do think that HD's suggestion of waiting until Learning to lead is finished is wise. And I would caution to have a firm plan in place before attempting such a major reread/rethink. These projects are not easy :)

Winter's Knight will be more than honoured to do an in-depth, chapter-by-chapter reread with KRBD.

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Winter's Knight will be more than honoured to do an in-depth, chapter-by-chapter reread with KRBD.

Along with House Draper this sounds like a great team :)

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