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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa X

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A lot of interesting stuff. I like the Bran/Robb and Arya/Sansa parallels you drew. I think I remember reading in the books how Sansa thought they were alike. Nice job.

One minor thing. The parallel drawn between Sansa not realizing Joffery's nature and Robb not realizing Myrcella's stupidity is iffy at best. Jon's comments are more his bitterness at being excluded because of his bastardy rather than a fair evaluation of Myrcella.

I agree about Jon being bitter at his exclusion, and I also think it's a comment on Jon's taste in women. His bonds of both friendship and romance are with Wildling or tough northern women and girls. Alys Karstark and Arya platonically, Val not so platonically, and Ygritte was his first love and so far most intense. Myrcella just isn't his type at all - she has no spearwife potential. :)

What that suggests to me about the parallels between Sansa and Robb is that both shared "Southern" tastes in the opposite sex. Robb chose to marry Jeyne Westerling, and Sansa first was infatuated with Joffrey, then Loras Tyrell as well as an overall ideal of handsome, gallant knights. And with both of them it seems to have been a fatal flaw - though I blame Robb entirely for his actions but I think Sansa was a mere foolish child - her actions were ill-considered, yes, but she was eleven and no-one bothered to warn her about the court being a snake pit. Sansa became disillusioned with Southern knights and by the end of ASOS she no longer thinks in terms of that ideal. But Robb lost his kingdom for the sake of a Southern woman (and his damn honor) and as a grown-ass man he should have known better.

BTW, I'm sorry I missed the window of opportunity for dissecting the Sandor post by Lord Bronn - these threads move so fast! I meant to comment, honestly! :) And anyone who is interested in a future Dany re-think along the lines of the Sansa re-think and you have NOT received a PM from me, PM me and I'll reply.

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@KRBD, there's really no "window of opportunity" for commenting on these presentations :) Feel free to go back and highlight what you wanted to say.

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Sorry if this is a bit random, but I have a question for you all. I was looking back at the 'Moments of Foreshadowing' thread, and this post by SkaagosChef stood out to me:

One I noticed on re-read. When Ned is put into black cells and Jon is contemplating leaving the NW, Mormont tells him 'Things you love will destroy you!' and he also asks Jon what would his father do if he had to choose between his family and his honour. Ned chooses things that he loves and they kill him.

Same is true for almost all major dead characters. Robb died because of Jane, Jon 'died' because or Arya.

All in all GRRM is not really big on love... almost all characters loose people they really love... if there is true love, GRRM will kill it off.

I can't help but wonder....what do you all think of this assessment?

If you agree with this pessimistic (albeit completely valid) statement, how do you think it will relate (or has already related) to Sansa's storyline?

As someone who (perhaps unrealistically) hopes that Sansa might find 'love' of some sort (assuming that is something she still wants), I feel rather deflated whenever I consider the way 'love' works out in GRRM's universe. :(

ETA: I just wanted to add that most importantly for me is Sansa's agency in all this. I suppose if her storyline is more about avoiding 'fake love' than actually finding 'true love', then I can understand that. I might also add that I feel sad for all the characters who seem to be shown over and over again that they cannot (or even *should not*) have love, whether it be Jon, Robb, Dany, etc. I'm not just singling out Sansa here. I know with the other three I mentioned there is also the conflict with duty that is the biggest part of the problem -- they have to choose between the two, and it usually ends badly. I just wonder if maybe, if Sansa is presented with this 'duty vs. love' dilemma, if she might be the one to find a better way here. :dunno:

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Myths, that was wonderful!

Re: The Lady Incident.

It never struck me that poor Sansa was good and sloshed when Arya attacked Joff and well and truly might not have remembered. Looking back on my first experience with alcohol, two glasses of Bailey's is all I recall.

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...I can't help but wonder....what do you all think of this assessment?

If you agree with this pessimistic (albeit completely valid) statement, how do you think it will relate (or has already related) to Sansa's storyline?...

I think this notion of love being the bane of honour is absolutely key. It is the individual versus society and that can only end in one of two ways, either the individual submits to society and denies their feelings or society crushes the individual.

However the optimestic part of that is that the society that GRRM shows us is rotten, it's a society with it's honour code that produces inhumane results. The hope of reader, or at least my hope is, thatpart of the ending of the series will be a change in this society to enable if only on a small scale the survival of gentler feelings.

Quite what it might mean for Sansa though, I can't guess.

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I think this notion of love being the bane of honour is absolutely key. It is the individual versus society and that can only end in one of two ways, either the individual submits to society and denies their feelings or society crushes the individual.

However the optimestic part of that is that the society that GRRM shows us is rotten, it's a society with it's honour code that produces inhumane results. The hope of reader, or at least my hope is, thatpart of the ending of the series will be a change in this society to enable if only on a small scale the survival of gentler feelings.

Quite what it might mean for Sansa though, I can't guess.

This is what the optimistic part of me believes, too. (I'm a Sagittarius - I can't help being optimistic!) I agree that GRRM is showing us that Westerosi society is not working for many people (who aren't great lords, and sometimes even then). The optimist in me also thinks that GRRM is showing us readers how very bad patriarchy is for everyone as well. The reason I think this is because so many younger women are moving into positions of power: Sansa, Dany, Asha Greyjoy (as one of two left in the younger generation and the only one not broken), Arianne Martell, Wynafryd Manderly (Wylis has no sons so she is the heiress to White Harbor), Alys Karstark (even if her brother lives to inherit Karhold, she's the co-founder of a new noble house), even Shireen Baratheon - heiresses or potential heiresses every one. By ADWD we're chock-a-block with heiresses. I hope it's not wishful thinking on my part that we'll be seeing a big change in culture by the end of the series.

As for Sansa - I would like to see her happily married and have children (Sandor or no Sandor), first because she's so strongly aligned with the Mother archetype and second because she really, really, really wants kids. I just want her marriage to be for love, or at least friendship and respect, rather than her claim. Something I could see happening if she is denied physical children is her taking on the role of Mother to her people, like Queen Elizabeth I.

PS: Brashcandy, thanks for the headsup! I'll be busy posting this weekend! I'm glad I didn't miss the boat on Lord B's Sandor post.

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One minor thing. The parallel drawn between Sansa not realizing Joffery's nature and Robb not realizing Myrcella's stupidity is iffy at best. Jon's comments are more his bitterness at being excluded because of his bastardy rather than a fair evaluation of Myrcella.

I agree on this. It's from Jon's POV we get the comment that Myrcella is "insipid", and none other. Arya ? I don't recall her disliking Myrcella, only that her sister was trying to impress Myrcella, and that Myrcella was "a baby" for afraid of direwolves. Jon was probably just reacting to Joffrey, and lumping Myrcella in with her elder brother.

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Myths, that was wonderful!

Re: The Lady Incident.

It never struck me that poor Sansa was good and sloshed when Arya attacked Joff and well and truly might not have remembered. Looking back on my first experience with alcohol, two glasses of Bailey's is all I recall.

Yeah, she was tipsy when it happened, certainly. Mind you, so was Joffrey, but that just led to him being more Joffrey-ish.

I've always thought that if Lady was with her at the incident, instead of tied up at camp, things would not have turned out that way.

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Myths, that was wonderful!

Re: The Lady Incident.

It never struck me that poor Sansa was good and sloshed when Arya attacked Joff and well and truly might not have remembered. Looking back on my first experience with alcohol, two glasses of Bailey's is all I recall.

Sansa did remember - she told Ned right after the incident and only said she didn't remember when asked in front of the king.

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Sansa did remember - she told Ned right after the incident and only said she didn't remember when asked in front of the king.

So she might still have been drunk when she told Ned? It's just such a big part of that scene, with the dizziness, and everything happening at once, and the feeling of helplessness. It wouldn't seem strange to me at all if she rode back, told the story to Ned breathlessly, and then woke up the next morning confused. When Sansa lies in ACOK, she reflects on it - it's not something she takes lightly, and she doesn't ever think (I'm still rereading there, but I don't recall from past readings) about lying re: Mycah.

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There’s also considerable attention given, during the Winterfell part of the narrative, to establishing other parallels between Robb and Sansa. During the feast, Jon notes that, as Robb escorts Myrcella, “Robb didn’t even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool,” a description not unlike how “Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside” Joffrey – Robb is as willing to overlook Myrcella’s stupidity, as impressed by her status, as Sansa is willing to overlook Joffrey’s haughtiness. When Ned makes the decision to go to King’s Landing, he frames the decision about who goes and who stays in terms of duty: Robb “must learn to rule…He must be ready when his time comes,” and “Sansa must wed Joffrey…we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion.”

I saw some discussion on what to make of Jon's observations here and I agree that this is an example where Jon was mistaken about Myrcella as I think she is the most intelligent of the Lannister children. However, it's also important to point out the reaction of both Robb and Sansa, regardless of whether Jon was correct or not. Jon noted that Robb was "grinning like a fool" which indicates that he was as caught up in the moment as Sansa was so I'd say the parallel between the two of them still holds

It’s worth noting that the Hound also shames Sansa in this chapter, as he did with Robb in the yard: “’The Starks use them for wet nurses,” and Sansa realized that the two stranger knights were looking down on her and Lady, swords in their hands, and then she was frightened again, and ashamed. Tears filled her eyes.” Once again, this seems to be a deliberate parallel with Robb (especially when we consider the audience for this shaming), but while Joffrey is instigating the situation with Robb in the practice yard, here Joff comforts Sansa – so it’s not just that she’s not witnessing his cruelty – he’s also treating her with a kindness that none of the rest of her family gets to experience.

Earlier, Lord Bronn pointed out that the Hound diffused a potentially tense moment on the road with the statement about wet nurses. I am wondering if something similar took place in the training yard. It looks like he is taunting Robb but I am now curious if we are actually witnessing something else. The Hound knew Joffrey really well and we saw that more than once in GoT and Clash. I wonder if he said those comments to Robb in an effort to diffuse Joffrey or somehow satisfy his ego without the scene escalting in to something more than it did. I'm really thinking about Joff's statements that Sandor is really more his mother's dog than his. After all, he let Tyrion slap Joffrey and warned him that Joff would remember it later on so I think this is a possibility.

As the bannermen arrive, Bran calls out Robb’s “cool courtesy,” another parallel to Sansa.

I think this line occurs in the same chapter where Bran also notices Robb's "Lord's face" and realizes that Rob is crying when they are in his bedroom. He's once again just his brother, thinking about a future where they can go vist Jon at the wall and their parents wil be home. His phrase here reminds me of Sansa's thought that "courtest is a ladies armor". Robb has his public mask that he is using to hide his inner fear and insecurity. Sansa has her armor, a form of public mask that she uses to defent herself at court. We see as the series progress, that Sansa uses her courtesy as a mask to hid her fears and who she really is from everyone around her, making only a few exceptions for the Hound and Dontos.

after he shares the battle plan, she thinks that “he is his father’s son, and Ned taught him well.

When Sansa goes to ask for mercy for Ned, she frames it in terms of duty and courage: “Now, she told herself, I must do it now. Gods give me courage…I must be as strong as my lady mother.”

Martin gave us hints of the home life of the Stark family at the beginning of GoT but then reveals the rest as the series progresses. There are other points where we see Ned's influence on Robb as we see the influence of both parents on Sansa. For both of the Stark children, this is the first time it really leaps out of the text for us. Sansa more than once draws strength from her mother and it seems that Robb has inherited his father's military knowledge. We have had discussion in this thread on Sansa and her eduation, especialy in the political realm. But, I think Sansa's thoughts here show that she did learn something very important from her mother, but it is knowledge gained when the teacher models correct behavior. To me, this tells us that she saw her mother's inner courage and strength and very much wants to emulate it.

That scene is also interesting, though, in comparison to the scene where Robb impresses Catelyn with his prowess as a military strategist - he reads the battlefield like Sansa reads the tourney, and both have an uncanny ability to foresee events (where Tywin will move, who will win the tourney). It's interesting that while Catelyn is there to warn Robb not to trust Roose Bolton, Ned doesn't warn Sansa about Littlefinger (because he's not there). In these scenes, both Robb and Sansa end up more positively evaluating allies (the Greatjon, the Hound) who initially try to shame them. For me, these two scenes are all about setting up the next two books - they're the last direct parallel between Robb and Sansa before things start to diverge, in terms of motivation for rebellion, and they establish the military and political competencies Robb and Sansa will rely on in the coming books.

ETA this also: I read the development of Sansa's political acumen like this: 1. Tourney 2. "Joffrey's not a Baratheon" 3. Begging for mercy 4. Heads on spikes, lesson from Hound re: courtesy armor. It's interesting that the development of Robb's military acumen gets more of a slow roll, and he considers the problems in calling the banners, thinking strategically, before his scene with Catelyn, but the development of Sansa's political competency seems to happen boom, boom, boom (for lack of better words). Robb's skill is highlighted once Catelyn appears; Sansa's really starts to develop when Ned is gone (if we consider his absence from most of the tourney a bit of foreshadowing).

Your comment here about the tourney being a bit of foreshadowing has got me thinking because we saw quite a bit happening here. Ned is absent for most of the time, leaving Sansa alone. We also see that Jeyne can not handle or cope with the violence and is forced to leave with the Septa. It's not just Ned who is gone, it is all of the daily support structures that Sansa has in KL, an indicator of just how alone she will eventually be. Not only that, we have Sansa's thought that she knew the Hound would win and indications that she has a very good grasp of what is happening. I think this foreshadows some of the political acumen that she laters shows in Storm and Clash. She correctly guesses the reactions amongst different members of the nobility of Slynt being made Lord of Harrenhal, she wonders about LF being made Lord of Harrenhal, and correctly guesses that Loras as KG was another kingslayer in the making. These are just a few of the accurate observations that Sansa makes without even realizing that she is doing so. A final piece of foreshadowing that I think may be going on here is Sansa's reaction to the knight who is killed by Gregor. She deals with it surprisingly well and even notes her lack of reaction. I think we are getting a hint of Sansa's ability to cope and maintain her needed composure that we see come out later in the series.

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I know with the other three I mentioned there is also the conflict with duty that is the biggest part of the problem -- they have to choose between the two, and it usually ends badly. I just wonder if maybe, if Sansa is presented with this 'duty vs. love' dilemma, if she might be the one to find a better way here. :dunno:

It's really an overarching conflict in the novels, and central to the experiences of many characters. With regard to Sansa, she already faced her own "disaster" when she chose her love for Joffrey over being the dutiful daughter, and now at the end of AFFC, Littlefinger is once again putting "duty" on the table - a chance to go back home, reclaim and rebuild Winterfell. What I think hope we'll see is that she won't be willing to sacrifice her sense of honour and honesty in making a deal with the devil. She didn't know the real Cersei and Joffrey before, but she has a good grasp on the kind of man LF is now. As others have noted upthread, the society is presented to us as morally corrupt and treacherous, and in her own small way, Sansa has acted as a corrective to some of the crooked excesses around her. I think the society has to change, and allow for the expression of those gentler feelings Lummel talked about, and I really can't think of another character other than Sansa whom Martin has particularly invested with those exact qualities.

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It never struck me that poor Sansa was good and sloshed when Arya attacked Joff and well and truly might not have remembered.

If I remember correctly she told Ned what really happened, so she must have remembered. But that could also have been afterwards, but it's not like she remembered a bit more each day, so I actually think she remembered.

ETA: Missed myths post, my bad.

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So she might still have been drunk when she told Ned? It's just such a big part of that scene, with the dizziness, and everything happening at once, and the feeling of helplessness. It wouldn't seem strange to me at all if she rode back, told the story to Ned breathlessly, and then woke up the next morning confused. When Sansa lies in ACOK, she reflects on it - it's not something she takes lightly, and she doesn't ever think (I'm still rereading there, but I don't recall from past readings) about lying re: Mycah.

I think you could be right although I believe Martin left this ambiguous on purpose. From my own experiences with alcohol, i remember quite clearly at first and then as time goes on, my memory gets pretty hazy rather fast. We don't know exactly how much she drink, just that it was much more than she was used too. The whole scene happened rather quickly, Sansa is led in and put on the spot in front of the entire court, makes a statement and then her sister begins attacking her. No follow-up and no attempt by Ned to help Sansa out. She really does not deserve the blame that is given for her at that time.

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So i finally got some time to read through what i've missed in the last couple of days (which was quite a lot!) and i realy enjoyed everything that came up for discussion...

House Draper: My mom is in love with Mad Men and John Draper, and when i showed her your avatar pic she laughed too! J Anyways, I really liked what you said in two different posts, but you sum it all up with these quotes:

I can only hope that the SanSan "alliance" goes from being Westeros' best kept secret to its most fortuitous

:bowdown:

Additionally, it would be quite the full circle of growth for Sansa to go from believing wholeheartedly in the "knight in shining armor" to realizing that she is her own knight and savior.

:agree:

Mrs Madnerley, just as Brash said, Sansa’s road may not end up in some great political scheme or alliance, and whatever awaits her can be aided on by people no one would ever expect heling her out. We’ve been seeing in the last couple of threads how Sansa is involved with the commoners, and shows great emphaty for them, so it would stand to reason that she could end up seeking aid from Mya Stone or Luthor (I’ve been working on his analysis btw) or even the Elder Brother instead of from “important people” like Stannis or the lords declarants. Sure being Sansa Stark there has to be before the end some more involvement with politiccs, but maybe Jaime or Brienne or Sandor or Myranda..?

*There was some discussion about Ned being a little jealous of Lorasgiving Sansa a red rose at the tourney. Well, I don’t know about that, but I always laugh at the way Joff sort of points out this to her later on that night at the feast. ^_^

*I cannot wait to read the Jaime and Cersei re-reads! :thumbsup: & i agree that they should be approached separatley.

Brashcandy mentioned the possible paths that Sansa can decide to live later on:

Sansa as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms or Sansa as Queen in the North

2. Remaining Alayne Stone, and living a secluded life of private enterprise

3. Becoming regent for one of her brothers (provided they live)

4. Marriage to a man of her choice/Ladyship of a great castle

Since this is Westeros I think our girl is quite lucky to be allowed by George this many roads since this are “nice” options considering the fate of so many other likeable and not so much characters over the course of the books. Of course he may surprise us all by having her being queen married to a man she doesn’t really love or not being able to have kids, but let’s all hope that doesn’t cross his mind. :unsure:

Mythsandstuff, so I really really loved your post!! I noticed just as I did with Lord Bronn’s and Lady Candance’s soooo many things that I’d missed out in my several re-reads of the novels, and I cannot wait for the second part of your Robb/Sansa analysis! (*That goes for you too Lord Bronn!) :)

I think I’ll first mention the things you brought up which I honestly had never even considered but which were just great catches, before I talk about Robb & Sansa’s duties and something about love Valkyrja wrote:

Robb gets held back from attacking Joffrey by Theon, which serves as a parallel to later events, in which Robb cannot attack King’s Landing because he has to deal with Theon’s sacking of Winterfell.

near the end of the first chapter, Bran’s wolf attacks and kills the man Joffrey sent to kill Bran, and at the end of the second, Nymeria attacks Joffrey to defend Arya. Robb isn’t there for the first (only the aftermath), but Sansa is there for the second – it’s interesting that at this point in the narrative, she’s been witness to more violence than Robb

In Ned’s last POV, Varys visits him and makes vague threats about how if he doesn’t confess his treason, it may cost Sansa her life – his confession before the beheading can thus be seen as an attempt to save not just his own life, but hers – he’s compromising his principles in order to save Sansa. In the very next chapter, Catelyn compromises her own principles (and Robb, and Arya) in approaching Walder Frey, so that Robb can have the bridge. It’s interesting that the series of parallels that began the novel with Bran and Arya’s relationships with their siblings seem to find closure in relationships with, and the motivations of, their parents.

Robb (and think back to the practice yard at Winterfell) makes the Lannisters look dumb by winning a battle and capturing Jaime. Joff needs to have the last word

& about this specially:

It’s worth noting that the Hound also shames Sansa in this chapter, as he did with Robb in the yard: “’The Starks use them for wet nurses,” and Sansa realized that the two stranger knights were looking down on her and Lady, swords in their hands, and then she was frightened again, and ashamed. Tears filled her eyes.” Once again, this seems to be a deliberate parallel with Robb (especially when we consider the audience for this shaming), but while Joffrey is instigating the situation with Robb in the practice yard, here Joff comforts Sansa – so it’s not just that she’s not witnessing his cruelty – he’s also treating her with a kindness that none of the rest of her family gets to experience.

I agree with what Kitty said about Sandor probably knowing how to handle Joff and willing to steer the argument in a way that would not end up badly. So he was willing to look like the bad guy in a way to spare things getting worse (sort of like what happened with the Mycah incident), and it’s nice to think he tried to “protect” (not really the word I want to use) both Robb and Sansa early on then, though he could only do it by shaming them (if that makes sense!) & though Sandor shamed Sansa and Robb both early on in Game, by Swords he has strong feelings about the former and was willing to join and serve the latter!

*About the feast at Winterfell, maybe what we can also take from Robb and Sansa’s reactions to the heirs to the throne is that they would be the Stark kids to have a much more political active role?

*

When Ned makes the decision to go to King’s Landing, he frames the decision about who goes and who stays in terms of duty: Robb “must learn to rule…He must be ready when his time comes,” and “Sansa must wed Joffrey…we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion.”

I think duty is the key word here. I just hope that towards the end it was relevant because it showed what happened to the eldest son and eldest daughter who were supposed to do their duty.

*Great mention of how Bran comments on Robb’s hands and Arya on Sansa’s! I can’t recall exactly how it was written but your said that it is pointed out that Robb had still to grow into a man, whereas Sansa could already be considered as a proper lady (I know being a lady can come at any age) but the way you wrote it made me think about how Sansa was all along better suited to be a player than Robb. Robb disobeyed and ignored his duty and only remembered his honor and that of Jeyne when it was too late (don’t get me wrong, I really like Robb’s character!) yet he should have known better. Sansa on the other hand has sort of always done her duty and what expected of her- or at least has led people believe that she does (who would have imagined she was planning an escape from KL with Dontos?), which is a smart move (though again, she may not have realized it at the time. It just came naturally to her the way being a lady did as Arya let us know. So when and if Sansa Stark is seen again in Weteros, she may once again do the unexpected by refusing to go through with LF’s plans and chose what she wants to do next herself.

I’d never thought about it before but maybe the key to deciding whom you want to marry (if you come from an important house, and even more so if you are a woman) is being a good player of the game of thrones? Sort of like what happened with the Queen of Thorns or Marge? They chose in the end who would be their spouses. They didn’t have tons of options, but having the right tools and wits and stuff allowed them the “freedom” of choosing among those few choices..? Robb was a king during the time that Sansa was a hostage, yet it was Robb the one who died for following his heart and because he wasn’t such a good player of the game, yet what can we conclude for Sansa when she could very well be on her way of becoming one of the best?

KRBD:

I blame Robb entirely for his actions but I think Sansa was a mere foolish child - her actions were ill-considered, yes, but she was eleven and no-one bothered to warn her about the court being a snake pit.

Indeed, Sansa was but a child (and a hostage at the time!) yet it’s nice to think that she was unconsciously learning to apply the advice Sandor and LF (both men who were misunderstood and overlooked all their lives, so it’s interesting to see the parallel from Sansa being someone important to learning to play under the radar, whereas with the guys it was the other way around) advices to the point that she is still alive. In Sansa’s last AGoT chapter she’s just discovered that Joff is a vicious monster and she is in hell, yet Sandor gives her some advice and later that day we see her remembering and applying it. And with LF I guess it could be that maybe his words to her on the day that Ned sat the Iron Throne must have made some impact since she remembers then quite accurately when he reminds her about them after she has escaped KL, which was what- almost a year afterwards?

Valkyrja: About the question regarding how the things we love destroy us: I actually like that phrase a lot, along with Maester Aemon’s words to Jon on love being the bane of honor and the death of duty. We see this to be true in quite a lot of stories not only in ASOIAF but in many other works… (Btw, I know that what LF feels for Cat and Sansa isn’t love, yet I hope they are what destroy him in the end).

But considering that this is meant to be a comparison of Sansa & Robb… Robb was in a way murdered for loving Jeyne among other things, yet I don’t see this happening with Sansa in the future to the point of being murdered and betrayed (again). What I do see though is that if Sansa where to chose to remain live a low-key life instead of being queen or something later on because she wants to raise a family and because she married whom she wanted, others would consider she made a mistake and sacrificed being powerful and such for the simple joy of being a wife and a mother, so if those guys and girls (I am reminded here of Cersei remembering her childhood friend (the one who didn’t enter Maggy’s tent) being at present happily married and with kids far away from court, whereas Cersei got to be queen, but thing didn’t turn out to be so good for her in the end) are writing the books of Westesori culture, then it stands to reason they would consider that love was the bane to Sansa’s duty to the North and the memory of her family, along with the Tully tradition of Family, Duty, Honor (Now I recall Cat and the way not many considered it good for her to release Jaime so she could get here girls back...)

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Myths, that was wonderful!

Re: The Lady Incident.

It never struck me that poor Sansa was good and sloshed when Arya attacked Joff and well and truly might not have remembered. Looking back on my first experience with alcohol, two glasses of Bailey's is all I recall.

While certainly a possibility, i don't think this is what happened--i think Sansa was scared and didn't want to say anything, and then suppressed the memory to deal with it--the memory was probably hazy with alcohol, but it was still there.

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Wonderful analysis, Myths! I particularly loved the small details about the hands and the needles - that's not something I would have ever caught, but it does speak volumes!

Your comment here about the tourney being a bit of foreshadowing has got me thinking because we saw quite a bit happening here. Ned is absent for most of the time, leaving Sansa alone. We also see that Jeyne can not handle or cope with the violence and is forced to leave with the Septa. It's not just Ned who is gone, it is all of the daily support structures that Sansa has in KL, an indicator of just how alone she will eventually be. Not only that, we have Sansa's thought that she knew the Hound would win and indications that she has a very good grasp of what is happening. I think this foreshadows some of the political acumen that she laters shows in Storm and Clash. She correctly guesses the reactions amongst different members of the nobility of Slynt being made Lord of Harrenhal, she wonders about LF being made Lord of Harrenhal, and correctly guesses that Loras as KG was another kingslayer in the making. These are just a few of the accurate observations that Sansa makes without even realizing that she is doing so. A final piece of foreshadowing that I think may be going on here is Sansa's reaction to the knight who is killed by Gregor. She deals with it surprisingly well and even notes her lack of reaction. I think we are getting a hint of Sansa's ability to cope and maintain her needed composure that we see come out later in the series.

Perhaps a big bit of foreshadowing for poor Jeyne here, considering what happens to her is a lot of violence, later on. She is forced to leave. She escapes with Theon. In this case it's with Septa Mordane. I am thinking it's a possibility that Jeyne, should she survive might very well join an order like the Silent Sisters (Also a small irony in the 'sister' part of the title. Jeyne wanted to be Sansa's sister. She ended up playacting as Sansa's real sister in ADWD.)

I have always loved Sansa's observations. For example she noted in a chapter that only one-fifth of the lords that attended court hearings under Robert showed up when Joffrey took the throne. Smart girl. ;)

So she might still have been drunk when she told Ned? It's just such a big part of that scene, with the dizziness, and everything happening at once, and the feeling of helplessness. It wouldn't seem strange to me at all if she rode back, told the story to Ned breathlessly, and then woke up the next morning confused. When Sansa lies in ACOK, she reflects on it - it's not something she takes lightly, and she doesn't ever think (I'm still rereading there, but I don't recall from past readings) about lying re: Mycah.

The way I read this part of the book was like something out of a sitcom or anime. Character gets intoxicated, they are impaired for that night. Wake up in the morning feeling fuzzy, can't remember things, and then later in the day, it suddenly hits them. Memories come flooding back in. If following the 'formula' Sansa wouldn't have known much when brought before Robert.

I agree on this. It's from Jon's POV we get the comment that Myrcella is "insipid", and none other. Arya ? I don't recall her disliking Myrcella, only that her sister was trying to impress Myrcella, and that Myrcella was "a baby" for afraid of direwolves. Jon was probably just reacting to Joffrey, and lumping Myrcella in with her elder brother.

Agree with the bolded part. Another thing to consider is Jon, while observant, has not yet "killed the boy" to become a mature "man." At this early stage, he is still prone to being guided by his emotions. Not to bring up hate speech, but there is a small basis for why Jon in the earlier books gets referred to by some posters of this board as "emo."

Edited - For spelling!

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& though Sandor shamed Sansa and Robb both early on in Game, by Swords he has strong feelings about the former and was willing to join and serve the latter!

Good point. It got me to thinking that Sandor more than anyone else has been closely aligned with nearly all the members of the Stark family, excluding Bran and Rickon who didn't come South, and Catelyn. Given Cat's involvement with Jaime and Brienne and proximity to the Quiet Isle, I'd say he could meet Sansa's mother after all. This is in contrast to LF's involvement with the Starks, which has consisted of lies and treachery, even going so far as to provide a fake Arya to be exploited for control of the North. I don't think Sandor will be the one to kill LF necessarily, but Martin does seem to want the men and their motives to be in "stark" opposition when it comes to Sansa.

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Good point. It got me to thinking that Sandor more than anyone else has been closely aligned with nearly all the members of the Stark family, excluding Bran and Rickon who didn't come South, and Catelyn. Given Cat's involvement with Jaime and Brienne and proximity to the Quiet Isle, I'd say he could meet Sansa's mother after all.

I agree, he could meet Cat, and who knows- rickon is going to need a strong father figure one day ifhe ever returns to winterfell... not so sure how Sandor could meet bran though

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