From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa X

[Queen of Winter]

I was more negative in my choice of words than I should have been Queen of Winter, sorry :(

No worries, Lummel! There is no need to apologize. I enjoy reading your responses and I wasn't offended/hurt at all. I've got pretty thick skin! :thumbsup:

Making analogies is either satifying for us as readers because it sparks off ideas or insightful if, by luck or chance, we stumble on something that GRRM is deliberately drawing on in ASOIAF. I would be surprised if he was consciously rewriting complete stories or mythologies into ASOIAF, but I'm sure that magpie like he's drawing on all sorts of things.

I agree with you here. I'm sure GRRM is drawing on many different things in this series, and nothing is going to perfectly fit. I think it's safe to say that a lot of myths/legends might fit many chararters for different reasons.

The wounded healer makes sense to me too for the Elder Brother, but I think it's a different type of story than the Fisher King, the injured healer can heal themself (physican heal thyself!) but the Fisher King type is dependant on somebody else healing him in conjunction with some external object, generally the same object or type of object that caused the injury in the first place.

True--what you stated about the wounded healer vs. the Fisher King.

Jane Eyre, in my opinion, only appears realistic on the surface, its quite fairy tale like I feel on the whole - like you say Jane mystically hears Rochester's call and Rochester is a bit of a bluebeard that Jane can, eventually, take control over, and there's more besides but all off topic.

The willow trees I think is completely crackpot. But crackpot ideas are good, like one hand clapping they get us to think differently. :) Keep it up!

I just had to include the thing about the willow trees! I couldn't resist! :laugh:

The greenseer can move beyond the weirwoods and see with practice through all trees we learn in ADWD. But that would suggest that Sansa is actually very powerful in her warging and I'm not sure that fits with what we have seen in the books so far. Another alternative would be that there is a connection between Arya and Sansa, an unconscious version of the link Bran achieves with Jon in ACOK. Same problem applies I think. But that's assuming the two events are concurrent anyway, I'm not sure timeline-wise if that is so.

The willow tree symbolism did make me think of the Greenseers and weirwoods. I don't know if Sansa is a warg like her siblings...like Kittykatknits said in a post above, it might be manifesting in another way perhaps. I think we touched on her possible warging skills in one of the reread threads......

Now a connection between Sansa and Arya.....I hadn't thought of that....hmmmm

[Winter's Knight]

I'll be brief but someone may expand on this. There is a theory that myself and many others have related to Sansa's warging skills. We believe that it does not manifest in the same way as the other Stark kids but has turned her in to a form of an empath. There are numerous occasions where Sansa instintually does or says the right thing with another pesson. Lollys, the Hound, and Ser Sweetrobin are a few examples of this. I think it's very possible that her empath skills were at play here.

I had this theory that Margery has a sort of touch-based empathy-she correctly identified the source of that Kettleblack's scars by touching them and in the end of Feast too she realises Cersei has framed her when the Queen Mother is holding her hand.

Perhaps Sansa is something similar? SR and Sandor both find her touch soothing for instance.

[Milady of York]

@ Queen of Winter:

Interesting one, your theory. I’d like to add some more symbolisms related to willows:

- In Gaulish mythology, willows are associated with Belenus, god of the sun, light and fire. (Thoros of Myr’s assertion after the fight with Beric came to mind when I found this out).

- Willow is the tree of dreaming, intuition and deep emotions. Symbolically it belongs to the beginning of spring, when all of life is stirring in the depths and begins to shoot outwards once again.

- The psychic rituals you mention are the ones to attract the powers needed for such things as: Protection, Divination, Inspiration, Healing, Fertility, Love, Grief and Death.

- Willows are sacred to the celtic goddess Brigit, who’s the Maiden aspect of the triple Goddess (Mother, Maiden, Crone). And this one bear a striking resemblance to the Greek legends around Persephone and Demeter, for the festival celebrates the re-emergence of Brigit as a young virgin from the mountain fastness of her mother Cailleach - she who is of winter, the burial mounds and dark places. This is the Celtic version of the Demeter & Core myth, representing the mysteries of life, death and rebirth.

- In Chinese folklore, though this same tree is associated with death and funerals, it symbolises rebirth and resurrection as well.

[Lady Lea]

Tze, this was truly wonderful, I especially liked the parallels with the Persephone myth which has always been a favourite of mine...

Here's the Slynt parallel if anyone is interested: http://i.imgur.com/uN0ra.png (I hadn't noticed until I saw this on tumblr tbh)

[Lyanna Stark]

I had this theory that Margery has a sort of touch-based empathy-she correctly identified the source of that Kettleblack's scars by touching them and in the end of Feast too she realises Cersei has framed her when the Queen Mother is holding her hand.

Perhaps Sansa is something similar? SR and Sandor both find her touch soothing for instance.

I think Rapsie put forward the theory that Sansa is the Deanna Troi of Westeros, i.e. an empath.

[Winter's Knight]

I think Rapsie put forward the theory that Sansa is the Deanna Troi of Westeros, i.e. an empath.

Is that a Star Trek: TNG reference I see? Is Sansa part Betazoid? :laugh:

[Kittykatknits]

Is there a thread elaborating on this? I would be interested in following up on it.

I had this theory that Margery has a sort of touch-based empathy-she correctly identified the source of that Kettleblack's scars by touching them and in the end of Feast too she realises Cersei has framed her when the Queen Mother is holding her hand.

Perhaps Sansa is something similar? SR and Sandor both find her touch soothing for instance.

There was a thread earlier this week asking if Sansa would ever warg. I'm linking my original post and then further down is quite a bit of follow-up on the subject.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72725-will-sansa-ever-learn-she-is-a-warg/page__st__20#entry3536921

WK- I'd never though that about Margaery but I suppose it is possible. The question would be where it comes from and what causes it. We see a regular pattern with Sansa and her thoughts provide some hints on what's happening. We can't get inside of Marg's head the same way to find out.

Either way, Sansa always struck me as someone whose touch and presence both served to sooth and calm people.

[Lummel]

I think this strengthens my old opinion that reality is often stranger than fiction. :P...

Only often? ;)

Is that Peter Englund you've been reading? Anyhow, with regard to Sandor the General (ah, I'll regret this I'm sure, but Sandor is the Hungarian version of Alexander - a famous general's name I have heard) maybe. But surely you know how little I like anything that smells of a happy ending :(

Some thoughts on Sansa and Jon:

Sansa and Jon are, as far as I can tell, the only two Starks we never actually see interact in "present" time, ..., en route to her own eventual death and resurrection?

Well, that was magnificent, a feast and a half :thumbsup:

No worries, Lummel! There is no need to apologize. I enjoy reading your responses and I wasn't offended/hurt at all. I've got pretty thick skin! :thumbsup:

Oh well in that case, gloves off **spits on hands** ;)

[brashcandy]

Top quality post as usual, tze :) It's hard sometimes to tease out the significant relations between characters who haven't interacted much or at all in the novels, but you've really done a stellar job of presenting some new insights.

It's easy for readers to focus on her calling Jon her "bastard half brother" here, but if we look a little deeper, we notice how she also thinks to herself that the singers called the Watch "the black knights of the Wall". This is important because we know what a huge premium Sansa was putting on the idea of knighthood. Though religion seemingly prevents Jon from attaining knighthood, Sansa seemed to subconsciously look for a loophole there, and found one in the songs: her beloved singers could "grant" Jon a sort of honorary knighthood as a member of the Watch, so that is the route her thoughts took.

A really important point and this connects to something we've noted about Sansa throughout these threads, which is her ability to redeem or validate someone's existence; the person often falls outside of the normative social codes relating to class, ability and status, but this doesn't prevent Sansa from showing empathy or giving assistance wherever possible. It's interesting because I think many readers are so blinded by her initial opinion of Mycah that they fail to realise how Sansa too is able to relate to those who are different or occupy lower positions on the social ladder. Perhaps your example with Jon clarifies the main way in which she is able to do this: by integrating these people back into the framework she has constructed of the world, altering her perceptions slightly as she is met with new information and challenges. So while her vision of the world does change, she also has real tranformative power over the lives of those society deems unfit or useless, or has otherwise denigrated in some way. She may not possess the common man touch as Arya does, but she can effect very useful change through this approach, and this is something she definitely has in common with Jon as we see via his interactions with the wildlings and others.

As ASOIAF has progressed, we've seen Jon and Sansa slip into each other's roles, into each other's shoes. Jon becomes a Lord in ASOS, the same book in which Sansa ceases "being" a Lady. Robb disinherited Sansa at the same time (if the will says what many suspect it does) that he declared he wanted Jon to inherit. Becoming Alayne meant Sansa became a bastard, just like Jon, (and Jon could very well have been declared trueborn by Robb's will, which would mean that Sansa "became" a bastard and Jon "became" a trueborn Stark). Sansa began her story by loving singers, and has progressed toward disliking them (Marillion), while Jon initially seemed to have no use for singers . . . until he met the singer Mance Rayder. The Littlefinger/Lysa/Sansa dynamic played out almost as a vicious, over-the-top caricature of the Ned/Catelyn/Jon dynamic, with Sansa forced to literally stand in a (heavily skewed and sensationalized) version of Jon's shoes: Catelyn saw Jon as a living representation of another woman that she feared Ned loved more than her, and Lysa saw Sansa as a living representation of Catelyn, the woman that Lysa (rightly) feared Littlefinger loved more than her. Sansa seemed to have a much closer relationship with her mother than with her father (the exact opposite of Jon), but "Alayne" had a much "closer" relationship with Littlefinger than with Lysa---Sansa takes on with Littlefinger (a much skeevier version of) the relatively close father/child relationship that Jon had with Ned.

And perhaps this idea of walking in another person's shoes is the central symbol of maturity and leadership. It brings to mind Dany's penultimate chapter in ADWD where she spends the morning thinking about the hot sand beneath the fighters' feet, and finally when the spectacle becomes too much for her, and Drogon enters the pit, we see her losing her shoes on the sand as she runs towards him, completing the symbolism of identifying with the downtrodden and achieving some new found clarity. Sansa now has an idea of what it's like to be a bastard, while Jon has the opportunity to elevate himself in society; both experiences are vital to giving one an idea of what it's like on the other side, and might be instrumental in creating a well rounded leader who can truly attend to all factions in society.

Both Jon and Sansa encounter "the pomegranate": Sansa is offered a literal pomegranate by Littlefinger, while Jon's rulership arc in ADWD was confronted at every turn by the Old Pomegranate, Bowen Marsh. The pomegranate, in Greek mythology, is what causes Persephone to become Queen of the Dead in perpetuity, and it's the reason winter comes in the first place---winter, in Greek mythology, being viewed as Demeter's grief at her separation from her daughter when Persephone descends every year to rule in the Underworld. The pomegrante causes Persephone to undertake two disparate roles, to become a creature of two separate worlds: she is both the Goddess of Spring and the Queen of the Underworld simultaneously (and concurrently), she rules in both the sunlight and the darkness. That idea---of a person moving between two contradictory spheres of existence, of a person gaining strength by a capacity to move between the darkness and the light---is a theme GRRM has played around with in other works, so there's an excellent chance he's exploring it in ASOIAF as well.

Both Jon and Sansa choose to reject "the pomegranate": Jon rejects the Old Pomegranate's demands for the future of the Watch, Sansa rejects Littlefinger's attempt to have her eat an actual pomegranate. But look at what happened to Jon in ADWD: he refused to acquiese to the Old Pomegranate's wishes, but the Old Pomegranate would not quietly accept rejection, choosing to physically attack him: there's been a lot of speculation on these boards that the attack on Jon will lead to some death-based transformation, that he (like Persephone) might find himself transformed (and possibly occupying a new leadership role) because of the Old Pomegranate. GRRM apparently had some Sansa chapters prepared for ADWD, but he pushed them back to TWOW. I'm very curious about what those chapters contained.

All very intriguing. We've had discussions before during the re-read of Sansa's connection to the myth of Persephone, but never related it to Jon and Marsh. The rejection by Sansa and Jon of the two pomegranates is I think extremely important. It means at least that whilst they may be forced to interact with the forces of darkness they won't succumb to them. I expect LF to behave exactly as Marsh did, in not quietly accepting "rejection" but in what form his resistance will take is yet to be seen. Perhaps his offer of Harry the heir is an attempt to get her to eat another pomegranate though. Also, who is the Demeter figure in all this? Logic would connect to UnCat who's certainly felt the keen loss of her children and longed to see them safe, but what about Sandor whom we also see expressing profound grief over Sansa's fate? Interestingly, Sansa is keeping his bloody cloak beneath her summer silks. Will he play an instrumental role in helping her to escape the underworld?

[Queen of Winter]

All very intriguing. We've had discussions before during the re-read of Sansa's connection to the myth of Persephone, but never related it to Jon and Marsh. The rejection by Sansa and Jon of the two pomegranates is I think extremely important. It means at least that whilst they may be forced to interact with the forces of darkness they won't succumb to them. I expect LF to behave exactly as Marsh did, in not quietly accepting "rejection" but in what form his resistance will take is yet to be seen. Perhaps his offer of Harry the heir is an attempt to get her to eat another pomegranate though. Also, who is the Demeter figure in all this? Logic would connect to UnCat who's certainly felt the keen loss of her children and longed to see them safe, but what about Sandor whom we also see expressing profound grief over Sansa's fate? Interestingly, Sansa is keeping his bloody cloak beneath her summer silks. Will he play an instrumental role in helping her to escape the underworld?

Well, I know in our past discussion, I mentioned that Hecate rescued Persephone from the Underworld and I likened her to Brienne. There was also the part where is she supposed to be accompanied by/heralded by dogs...that might be a Sandor reference. (He might not be "The Hound" any longer, so maybe you could reference him as a "dog". People called him "dog" frequently, but remember now he's his "own" dog--not a Lannister dog). So he might well have some kind of role in rescuing Sansa.

I do think if he undergoes a "rebirth" and finds out what's happened to Sansa, or hears that Brienne is out searching for her, that he will possibly want to attempt a rescue. I don't think I can see him "abandoning her cause", especially since we know he feels regret that he didn't bring her with him when he fled Kings Landing.

ETA: Also Sansa keeping Sandor's cloak "under her summer silks" is a very powerful image. When Persephone is returned to her mother, it heralds the coming of Spring, and the land "blooms again". The white Kingsguard cloak could be viewed as the "wedding night sheet" that used to be displayed the morning after a wedding to "prove" the woman's virginity. (Also, as an afterthought, sheets are bloodied during childbirth too) I think both images evoke fertility and rebirth.

[tze]

All very intriguing. We've had discussions before during the re-read of Sansa's connection to the myth of Persephone, but never related it to Jon and Marsh. The rejection by Sansa and Jon of the two pomegranates is I think extremely important. It means at least that whilst they may be forced to interact with the forces of darkness they won't succumb to them. I expect LF to behave exactly as Marsh did, in not quietly accepting "rejection" but in what form his resistance will take is yet to be seen.

I think there's another route the Jon/Sansa "pomegranate" parallel could take, though, one that isn't necessarily centered on Littlefinger attacking Sansa. Jon was literally attacked by his "pomegranate", because Bowen Marsh was associated, physically, with pomegranates----Bowen was not offering Jon a pomegranate, Bowen was the pomegranate. But with Sansa, Littlefinger isn't a direct analogue to Bowen Marsh, pomegranate-wise, because Littlefinger offered Sansa the pomegranate, but was not himself ever physically described as "the pomegranate". Jon was literally attacked by the Old Pomegranate, not by anything offered by Bowen Marsh. With Sansa, an actual pomegranate was offered. This distinction could be important to Sansa's future, given the Jon/Sansa parallels (and especially given the parallels Sansa's story already seems to have to the story of Snow White---the snow, the dwarves, fleeing the wicked Queen, etc.----and Snow White was of course "killed" by poisoned fruit).

Sansa's currently the only POV Stark who hasn't been physically injured; she was beaten by the Kingsguard, but it seems that pain alone isn't enough to increase warging ability---you have to lose access to at least a part of your physical body, as Bran lost his legs, Arya her eyesight, and Jon his hand (when it was burned) and leg (when he was shot with an arrow). There's been a lot of speculation that the physical trauma Jon experienced by the Marsh stabbing will end up greatly increasing his Old Gods-based powers, as physical injuries seem to do. Religions like the Faith of the Seven and R'hllorism clearly view darkness as "evil" . . . but the religion of the Old Gods seems to view darkness and the "underworld" (being beneath the earth) as highly positive things. Given the pomegranate parallel, perhaps Sansa will be "attacked" by a pomegranate, and that trauma will end up greatly increasing her Old Gods-based powers? But not via Littlefinger---Sansa was offered a literal pomegranate, so perhaps a literal pomegranate will cause the trauma that serves as her catalyst?

This is speculation, of course, but . . . there is a way for Sansa to be "literally" attacked by a pomegranate: if she (intentionally or not) eats a pomegranate that has been poisoned. Thus far, Sansa has encountered two "wicked stepmother/evil Queen" figures, concerned (or obsessed) with physical beauty, who both wanted to kill her: Cersei and Lysa. Then, in Sansa's final chapter in AFFC, she encountered Myranda Royce, who administers Lord Nestor's household (and thus, would have been in charge of planning the feast welcoming Lord Robert Arryn to the Gates of the Moon, a feast we haven't yet seen), who was clearly (and at some length) comparing Sansa's beauty to her own, and who brings up the idea, at some length, of Littlefinger marrying again (thus raising the specter of a new "stepmother" for Alayne/Sansa). There are plenty of hints there that Myranda actually did want to marry Harry the Heir (given the very high chance that Harry's wife will become Lady of the Vale), and "Alayne" of course stands in the way of that. In the story of Snow White, the Wicked Queen poisons Snow White with an apple, Snow White is placed in a glass coffin, and she is awoken with a kiss. Myranda (who claims she looks "like an apple" when she blushes) might play the role of the Wicked Queen here, poisoning Sansa at the feast to prevent her from ever marrying Harry the Heir. Sansa might "die" (or at the very least, fall into a coma) as the result of poisoning. (And notice Cersei's AFFC proclamation that Sansa "will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss". Snow White is, of course, eventually resurrected by a kiss.) But weaving the Persephone myth in to this could foreshadow Sansa being poisoned by a literal pomegranate (not an apple), and could indicate that any physical injuries caused by such a pomegranate could lead to Sansa's Old Gods-based powers thriving, as has been speculated elsewhere will happen to Jon.

[Lady Lea]

This is speculation, of course, but . . . there is a way for Sansa to be "literally" attacked by a pomegranate: if she (intentionally or not) eats a pomegranate that has been poisoned. Thus far, Sansa has encountered two "wicked stepmother/evil Queen" figures, concerned (or obsessed) with physical beauty, who both wanted to kill her: Cersei and Lysa. Then, in Sansa's final chapter in AFFC, she encountered Myranda Royce, who administers Lord Nestor's household (and thus, would have been in charge of planning the feast welcoming Lord Robert Arryn to the Gates of the Moon, a feast we haven't yet seen), who was clearly (and at some length) comparing Sansa's beauty to her own, and who brings up the idea, at some length, of Littlefinger marrying again (thus raising the specter of a new "stepmother" for Alayne/Sansa). There are plenty of hints there that Myranda actually did want to marry Harry the Heir (given the very high chance that Harry's wife will become Lady of the Vale), and "Alayne" of course stands in the way of that. In the story of Snow White, the Wicked Queen poisons Snow White with an apple, Snow White is placed in a glass coffin, and she is awoken with a kiss. Myranda (who claims she looks "like an apple" when she blushes) might play the role of the Wicked Queen here, poisoning Sansa at the feast to prevent her from ever marrying Harry the Heir. Sansa might "die" (or at the very least, fall into a coma) as the result of poisoning. (And notice Cersei's AFFC proclamation that Sansa "will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss". Snow White is, of course, eventually resurrected by a kiss.) But weaving the Persephone myth in to this could foreshadow Sansa being poisoned by a literal pomegranate (not an apple), and could indicate that any physical injuries caused by such a pomegranate could lead to Sansa's Old Gods-based powers thriving, as has been speculated elsewhere will happen to Jon.

This is very very interesting. I think, while Myranda might have had her sights set on Harry the Heir, she may be aiming for Littlefinger at the moment. A couple of threads ago I think it was Brash who was talking about the very pointed questions Myranda asked about LF and it sounded like she was very interested. In that way she could become Sansa's stepmother. If she noticed LF's "special attentions" to Sansa (and she is very perceptive) she could end up trying to poison her. Poison is a woman's weapon after all, or so we have been told.

Regarding Randa saying Sansa looks like an apple when she blushes - there is another reference to a pomegranate in relation to Sansa: when Olenna Tyrell is talking to Sansa in the meeting where she proposes the match with Willas, she mentions that Sansa looks like a pomegranate when she blushes.

[Elba the Intoner]

Well this takes the analysis to a whole new level. Wow! I love the Snow White references and have mentioned before that after I saw the movie "Mirror Mirror" this spring it became so obvious to me that Sansa's story parallels Snow White (and how I started laughing out loud in the theatre when Snow White's father was revealed in the end and it was none other than Sean Bean). I didn't think of the attack by a poisoning of an actual pomegranate though. At first I thought when you mentioned the pomegranate attack with regard to Sansa that you were suggesting that LF would attack her sexually, as it does seem like that is where things are going, and if I recall correctly, the pomegranate is a symbol for sex. Hmmm, yet another option in how Sansa's story could go.

[Lady Lea]

Maybeeeeeeee Randa poisons her, she goes into a coma of sorts, LF freaks out and sends her to the best healer around... in the Quiet Isle?? eh?

[Queen of Winter]

Maybeeeeeeee Randa poisons her, she goes into a coma of sorts, LF freaks out and sends her to the best healer around... in the Quiet Isle?? eh?

Ooooh, nice Lady Lea! :thumbsup:

[brashcandy]

Maybeeeeeeee Randa poisons her, she goes into a coma of sorts, LF freaks out and sends her to the best healer around... in the Quiet Isle?? eh?

Clearly you're trying to induce massive breakdowns around the globe due to unsustainable levels of euphoria :)

Anyhoo, perhaps it's time for QoW to dust back off her Quiet Isle theories about the cave etc. CotF anyone?

[tze]

Regarding Randa saying Sansa looks like an apple when she blushes - there is another reference to a pomegranate in relation to Sansa: when Olenna Tyrell is talking to Sansa in the meeting where she proposes the match with Willas, she mentions that Sansa looks like a pomegranate when she blushes.

Which is very, very interesting, given the Tyrell-based association between Sansa and poison. At the Purple Wedding, Sansa carried poison in her hair---she basically was a "poisoned pomegranate". :)

And the idea of Sansa as the Tyrells' pomegranate has some fascinating implications. Unlike Jon and Sansa, the Tyrells actively sought after their "pomegranate"----though they pretended to "reject" her, it seems extremely likely that they were only biding their time, intending all along to "consume" her (in a sense). But though they grasp after her, she is constantly out of their reach---first via the Lannisters, later via Littlefinger. The pomegranate causes Persephone to become (well, to remain) a Queen, and it symbolizes the way in which Persephone's power increases during winter. Perhaps the Tyrells' inability to hold onto their pomegranate, Sansa, represents the Tyrells' inability to hold onto their rulership of Westeros, their inability to truly "ascend" to a greater sphere of power, especially when winter comes?

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

:bowdown: Tze and Brash. As I've said, this re-think has increased my enjoyment of the series.

I have more to comment on this weekend (and I also am working on my Sweetrobin analysis) but I want to add to the Persephone comparison: Persephone was abducted to the underworld when she stopped to pluck a flower - a narcissus to be precise. Loras Tyrell is the Knight of Flowers, and Joffrey is very much a narcissist. Her naive admiration for these two men could be said to have helped to start Sansa's underworld journey.

[Lummel]

...ETA: Also Sansa keeping Sandor's cloak "under her summer silks" is a very powerful image. When Persephone is returned to her mother, it heralds the coming of Spring, and the land "blooms again". The white Kingsguard cloak could be viewed as the "wedding night sheet" that used to be displayed the morning after a wedding to "prove" the woman's virginity. (Also, as an afterthought, sheets are bloodied during childbirth too) I think both images evoke fertility and rebirth.

It might also be the nature of Persephone's existance. Summer is followed by her decent into Hades, there is no esape from it she must always return there, her release is only ever seasonal. The summer silks a top the winter white cloak is a representation of the year. The blood on the cloak is death, the old year must die before Persephone brings back the spring.

[Pod The Impaler]

Hmm, page 20 again. I'll wait until it clocks over before making that long-winded LF post I have coming.

In the meantime - all the talk of wounded legs and Fisher Kings, and no association with Willas Tyrell ?