"Targaryens are Fireproof" and Other Common Misconceptions

[Brony Stark]

That Valonqar isn't a gender neutral term like dragons.

The only reason the word 'dragons' is gender neutral in High Valyrian is because the dragons themselves were gender neutral.

[J. Stargaryen]

Sevumar,

I've decided to reword the AAR/tPtwP section based on your suggestion. Thanks for your input. :)

[J. Stargaryen]

That Valonqar is a gender neutral term like dragons.

The only reason the word 'dragons' is gender neutral in High Valyrian is because the dragons themselves were gender neutral.

Is there any evidence to support this?

[Brony Stark]

Is there any evidence to support this?

Oh wait, holy cow I'm sleepy. I meant it ISN'T a gender neutral term.

[eRome]

Ricasso is the perfumed seneschal Quaithe has warned Dany about.

[J. Stargaryen]

Oh wait, holy cow I'm sleepy. I meant it ISN'T a gender neutral term.

Still the same question. ;)

[J. Stargaryen]

Remember, not only are we looking to list misconceptions, but to provide evidence countering them.

[Brony Stark]

Still the same question. ;)

Ah well. I'll look for evidence when I reread.

[Pliskin]

Ah well. I'll look for evidence when I reread.

There is indeed evidence that dragons are neutral (IIRC they can change gender).

But it's not an evidence to valonqar not being a neutral word.

[danm_999]

That dragons brought magic back into the world. If they did, why are Melisandre's visions and parlour tricks, warging, and MMD's blood magic working before the eggs hatch?

[J. Stargaryen]

There is indeed evidence that dragons are neutral (IIRC they can change gender).

But it's not an evidence to valonqar not being a neutral word.

I see. It may be beneficial to relax the evidential burden in cases like this.

Is there any evidence at all that suggests that valonqar may be gender neutral? Ya know, other than the Valyrian word for dragon. I just want to be sure before I add this to the OP.

[Brony Stark]

I see. It may be beneficial to relax the evidential burden in cases like this.

Is there any evidence at all that suggests that valonqar may be gender neutral? Ya know, other than the Valyrian word for dragon. I just want to be sure before I add this to the OP.

And that is the problem, we don't know enough about high Valyrian to make any assumption either way, in fact the only fact about the language aside from dragons being gender neutral is that 'Val' seems to mean man.

Valar (all men)

Valyrian

Valonqar.

[danm_999]

I see. It may be beneficial to relax the evidential burden in cases like this.

Is there any evidence at all that suggests that valonqar may be gender neutral? Ya know, other than the Valyrian word for dragon. I just want to be sure before I add this to the OP.

There's not really any help one way or the other unfortunately.

If it really is a gender neutral word, like say it means "little sibling", we wouldn't know since it's only ever been applied to Cersei (who only has little brothers). We know Cersei found out the meaning from her Septa at Casterly Rock, but it depends how she asked the question. If she asked her something like "who is the valonqar?" it's entirely possible the Septa would answer "it means your brother".

I personally do think it is a male noun, but the fact that gives me pause is that in a prophecy elsewise entirely in the Common Tongue, one word of High Valyrian is used. Is that to obfuscate the issue? Possibly.

[The guy from the Vale]

Syrio Forel is not Jaqen H'ghar

We know from the gaoler of the Red Keep, Rennifer Longwaters, that Ned Stark allowed Yoren to take his pick of the dungeons, and that that was the time Rorge, Biter and Jaqen were handed over. Since Syrio's fight against Meryn Trant occurred around the time of Ned's imprisonment, this means Jaqen had been in the Black cells during Arya's dancing lessons, and was in Yoren's custody when the supposed switch should have taken place.

[Jolene Brown]

There's not really any help one way or the other unfortunately.

If it really is a gender neutral word, like say it means "little sibling", we wouldn't know since it's only ever been applied to Cersei (who only has little brothers). We know Cersei found out the meaning from her Septa at Casterly Rock, but it depends how she asked the question. If she asked her something like "who is the valonqar?" it's entirely possible the Septa would answer "it means your brother".

I personally do think it is a male noun, but the fact that gives me pause is that in a prophecy elsewise entirely in the Common Tongue, one word of High Valyrian is used. Is that to obfuscate the issue? Possibly.

There is evidence that it is specifically the word dragon (and by implication only the word dragon) that is gender-neutral in High Valyrian, it's just sort of a pain because you have to sort of draw it out from Maester Aemon's explanation to Sam about the Dany thing.

The reason the word valonqar is used in a prophecy otherwise in the Common Tongue is to create suspense - GRRM tells us about the prophecy fairly early in AFFC, as I remember it, but is careful to delay telling us that valonqar actually means "little brother" until toward the end. It's just a dramatic device, so that we're all wondering who this valonqar might be, until we finally find out Cercei thinks it's Tyrion, and then of course, like, 75% of readers pick up on the fact that it could be Jaime too, and we're all like, "Cercei, you dumbass - Jaime is also younger than you," and then in the years between AFFC and whenever Cercei finally dies, people get bored, and they want to come up with a more interesting theory, since the Jaime thing is so obvious, so then they just go totally nuts with it and start reaching for some really distant possibilities, and convincing themselves that a word which we are explicitly told means "little brother" could somehow include female characters just sort of makes it more fun. But not for me - me, it irritates, because I think this is one situation where it is very clear - the word means "little brother." If the valonqar exists, it will be a male character who is somebody's younger brother, although maybe it won't be Cercei's younger brother. Maybe.

This is my rant on this topic, but I'm still too lazy to find the Sam POV with Aemon's explanation... maybe tomorrow.

[The Summer Islander]

There is also the misconception that all bastards get last names. Only highborn bastards get last names. If a crofters daughter, or a whore has a baby and she isn't married the baby is X, Y from fleebottom or where ever they are born. Only highborn bastards get Snow, Flowers, Sand, Stone, Hill, Pyke, Storm, Waters, Rivers.

Is this not correct?

[danm_999]

There is evidence that it is specifically the word dragon (and by implication only the word dragon) that is gender-neutral in High Valyrian, it's just sort of a pain because you have to sort of draw it out from Maester Aemon's explanation to Sam about the Dany thing.

The explanation is as follows:

The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame.

This, unfortunately, gives us no hint as to whether High Valyrian is a language with lots of grammatical genders, like say German, in which the word for dragon would be a special case, or a language which largely lacks grammatical genders, like English (though does have some gendered words, like rooster for example). Either could be the case honestly.

I tend to agree valonqar is male, given the above point that that valar seems to mean "men", and would honestly be stunned if the valonqar ended up being someone other than Jaime, Tyrion or maybe Sandor Clegane, but it's still possible it means "little sibling" or "little kin" or something. It's still a point of speculation honestly, so it probably shouldn't go with other misconceptions here.

The reason the word valonqar is used in a prophecy otherwise in the Common Tongue is to create suspense - GRRM tells us about the prophecy fairly early in AFFC, as I remember it, but is careful to delay telling us that valonqar actually means "little brother" until toward the end.

Actually, when a Tyroshi brings her a dwarf's head and says:

I bring you justice. I bring you the head of your valonqar.” The old Valyrian word sent a chill through her, though it also gave her a tingle of hope. “The Imp is no longer my brother, if he ever was,” she declared. “Nor will I say his name. It was a proud name once, before he dishonored it.”

So before we ever hear the prophecy, we know Cersei think's it's Tyrion, we know it means brother, and we know it's High Valyrian. We have it (partially) translated for us before we get to the prophecy. By the time we get to the prophecy, we find out why Cersei fears the valonqar, not what the valonqar means. That has already been set up for us, so we can't really say Martin uses "valonqar" on the prophecy to trick us, he's already told us what Cersei believes the translation to be.

[Jolene Brown]

Actually, when a Tyroshi brings her a dwarf's head and says:

So before we ever hear the prophecy, we know Cersei think's it's Tyrion, we know it means brother, and we know it's High Valyrian. We have it (partially) translated for us before we get to the prophecy. By the time we get to the prophecy, we find out why Cersei fears the valonqar, not what the valonqar means. That has already been set up for us.

Hmm, really? That's not how I remembered it, but I haven't read Cercei's POVs in AFFC in awhile... I'll have to look at them again tomorrow.

[grindylow]

There is also the misconception that all bastards get last names. Only highborn bastards get last names. If a crofters daughter, or a whore has a baby and she isn't married the baby is X, Y from fleebottom or where ever they are born. Only highborn bastards get Snow, Flowers, Sand, Stone, Hill, Pyke, Storm, Waters, Rivers.

Is this not correct?

The books are inconsistent - when we meet Jon in GoT, we're told that all bastards in the North get the last name Snow since they have no name of their own. But later on, we're definitely told that only highborn bastards get those names. GRRM again said in the extra materials for S1 of the show that they're only for highborn bastards.

[J. Stargaryen]

The books are inconsistent - when we meet Jon in GoT, we're told that all bastards in the North get the last name Snow since they have no name of their own. But later on, we're definitely told that only highborn bastards get those names. GRRM again said in the extra materials for S1 of the show that they're only for highborn bastards.

This seems convincing enough. The part about Jon can probably be chalked up to; continuity error, unreliable narrator, or different customs in the north - which I can note.