"Targaryens are Fireproof" and Other Common Misconceptions

[mrunderhill]

Could you please provide me the quote in which Sansa told Cersei number of guards? And Martin remained ambiguous in both cases, so neither you can say that he totally disagrees with me.

No Martin was pretty firm that Sansa deserved part of the blame and part of the responsibility for her father's death. Even going as far as to say it would be wrong to say she played no part in it.

http://www.westeros....tegory/C91/P240

The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

[Mladen]

No Martin was pretty firm that Sansa deserved part of the blame and part of the responsibility for her father's death. Even going as far as to say it would be wrong to say she played no part in it.

Imprisonment, she did play a small role, and she should share some responsability, but for death, no.

[The Phoenix Guard]

Thanks, for posting this! Very interesting. I'm quite surprised by the fire/heat proof Targaryen thing not being true. I always assumed that Dany was heatproof after she takes a bath that her servant girl says is too hot early on in AGOT, Viserys clearly wasn't but I thought that was because as Mormont and Dany say "he was no true dragon."

[Fat Mac]

That Martin quote says nothing about her playing a role in his death. I guess its all the wording of it, but I think only Joff and LF had a part in Ned's death (oh, and Ilyn Payne of course :P)

As for downfall, yes I guess she had some part. But its not like Ned wasn't going down anyways.

[mrunderhill]

Imprisonment, she did play a small role, and she should share some responsability, but for death, no.

Martin does not say it was a small role and you claimed is was a common misconception that Sansa gave vital information, which led to Ned's IMPRISONMENT and later death. Well she did. It is not a misconception at all. In fact, just reading the books and Cersei being Cersei, you don't realise how big her role actually was.

[Mladen]

Martin does not say it was a small role and you claimed is was a common misconception that Sansa gave vital information, which led to Ned's IMPRISONMENT and later death. Well she did. It is not a misconception at all. In fact, just reading the books and Cersei being Cersei, you don't realise how big her role actually was.

Imprisonment and death are 2 different things. Sansa had nothing with Ned`s death. It would be like blaming Bran for Wo5K, just because he had wanted to climb the day he saw Jaime and Cersei. Martin did say she shares a quilt, but he didn`t say Sansa alone sent Ned to death. Because, that would actually be against what`s written in the books. Misconception is that she caused her father`s death. And that`s my point. Not imprisonment, than death.

[Nerolunar]

Nice thread. This will be useful to many people ;)

[mrunderhill]

Imprisonment and death are 2 different things. Sansa had nothing with Ned`s death. It would be like blaming Bran for Wo5K, just because he had wanted to climb the day he saw Jaime and Cersei. Martin did say she shares a quilt, but he didn`t say Sansa alone sent Ned to death. Because, that would actually be against what`s written in the books. Misconception is that she caused her father`s death. And that`s my point. Not imprisonment, than death.

Now you are just nitpicking. Your claim was that Sansa was not responsible for her father's IMPRISONMENT and later death. You never separated the two in your initial statement. I pointed out she does share responsibility for his imprisonment since she betrayed him.

[Mladen]

Now you are just nitpicking. Your claim was that Sansa was not responsible for her father's IMPRISONMENT and later death. You never separated the two in your initial statement. I pointed out she does share responsibility for his imprisonment since she betrayed him.

My initial claim is that she is not guilty for her father`s death, not imprisonment. I can`t deny she gave Cersei some information Cersei used. I bolded my initial point, but I can see the misunderstanding. I`ll correct it.

[A Crow Come Over]

My initial claim is that she is not guilty for her father`s death, not imprisonment. I can`t deny she gave Cersei some information Cersei used. I bolded my initial point, but I can see the misunderstanding. I`ll correct it.

Sansa is old enough to know what they do to traitors when she told Cersei her fathers plans, which is why she begged for mercy in court, she knew he was going to be killed.

She shares some responsibility for Ned's death as GRRM explicitly stated.

[Mladen]

Sansa is old enough to know what they do to traitors when she told Cersei her fathers plans. She shares some responsibility for Ned's death as GRRM explicitly stated.

He didn`t explicitally said that. She shares some responsability for Ned`s downfall, but not his death. It`s even stated in the quote mrunderhill provided. Amd Sansa was 12 at that time. I don`t think any 12 year-old understands Game of thrones. And she didn`t tell Cersei her father is a traitor. Where, in God`s name have you read that? Certainly not in ASOIAF.

[mrunderhill]

My initial claim is that she is not guilty for her father`s death, not imprisonment. I can`t deny she gave Cersei some information Cersei used. I bolded my initial point, but I can see the misunderstanding. I`ll correct it.

Okay fair enough, but even if she did not think Ned was going to be killed, she must have known deep down that most of the household guards would be killed and Ned was going to be punished.

As for his death Joffrey, probably LF and Slynt hold the blame, though I understand why Joffrey would want Ned executed.

[tormund's beard]

family comes first ALWAYS. sansa didn't learn that or didn't care and then the shit hit the fan.

[Mladen]

Okay fair enough, but even if she did not think Ned was going to be killed, she must have known deep down that most of the household guards would be killed and Ned was going to be punished.

As for his death Joffrey, probably LF and Slynt hold the blame, though I understand why Joffrey would want Ned executed.

But, the thing is, she went to Cersei so she could talk to Ned and stop him from going North. That was Sansa`s intention, and that`s all we know she ever knew. Her father wasn`t accuse of being traitor at the moment, so I don`t think we can tell she knew anyone would be killed.

[King of Winters]

The Dragon has Three Heads Prophecy means three seperate people and three dragon riders

It's one dragon with three heads. Not three seperate dragons with three heads. This means that it will be someone with three sides/titles to them.

Also the dragon rides aren't connected to it as Rhaegar didn't say anything about dragons coming back.

[mrunderhill]

But, the thing is, she went to Cersei so she could talk to Ned and stop him from going North. That was Sansa`s intention, and that`s all we know she ever knew. Her father wasn`t accuse of being traitor at the moment, so I don`t think we can tell she knew anyone would be killed.

She knew a lot more than that. She knew the situation was very dangerous, she knew her father was sending them away for their own safety and she knew that three of his men including Jorey had just been killed. She may not have expected Ned to be executed, but she knew he was going to get punished and she knew that it would probably come to blood.

[Kienn]

My initial claim is that she is not guilty for her father`s death, not imprisonment. I can`t deny she gave Cersei some information Cersei used. I bolded my initial point, but I can see the misunderstanding. I`ll correct it.

Your initial claim is actually that it is a misconception that Sansa is responsible.

Has anyone ever remotely reasonably blamed solely Sansa for Ned's death/downfall (i.e. somehow turning Joffrey's decision to take his head to her fault)? No

Has anyone blamed Sansa partially for his death/downfall? Yes

Is this a misconception? No

[mrunderhill]

The Dragon has Three Heads Prophecy means three seperate people and three dragon riders

It's one dragon with three heads. Not three seperate dragons with three heads. This means that it will be someone with three sides/titles to them.

Also the dragon rides aren't connected to it as Rhaegar didn't say anything about dragons coming back.

Well the dragons have come back and their are three of them and we know a person can ride only one dragon. When Aegon conquered Westeros the three heads of the dragon were literally Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys. We have no idea how the prophecy will be fulfilled. It could be fulfilled in many ways.

[A Crow Come Over]

He didn`t explicitally said that. She shares some responsability for Ned`s downfall, but not his death. It`s even stated in the quote mrunderhill provided. Amd Sansa was 12 at that time. I don`t think any 12 year-old understands Game of thrones. And she didn`t tell Cersei her father is a traitor. Where, in God`s name have you read that? Certainly not in ASOIAF.

I consider death part of downfall, dont you?

So Sansa cant be blamed for her actions because shes only 12? Why does this argument work for Sansa and not Dany?

[King of Winters]

Well the dragons have come back and their are three of them and we know a person can ride only one dragon. When Aegon conquered Westeros the three heads of the dragon were literally Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys. We have no idea how the prophecy will be fulfilled. It could be fulfilled in many ways.

At the time when Rhaegar made the prophecy he didn't know that dragons would return or make a prophecy where he saw a dragon being born or anything. So I assume his interpretation of the prophecy was his three children.