White-Luck Warrior X: X Marks the Slog

[sologdin]

right. they can make a slaughter and call it peace, but, like the bloody romans, that doesn't mean that they're right in calling it that.

[Shryke]

The part in TTT where Kellhus thinks about it to me kinda cuts to the heart of the issue.

It doesn't matter if they are right or not. They have the means to destroy the world and the conviction that they must do so. That's all that's required for them to be incredibly dangerous.

[Castel]

As an example: the easiest way to solve the problem of someone being able to see skin spies is to withdraw all the skin spies. Wipe people out later if you need. If you are indeed summoning the No-God again, the only thing you need is time. That's it. There's no need to be desperate or bold or provoke any kind of war. Simply chill out. They've forgotten the greatest trick the Devil ever played.

You're assuming that they understand how the Dunyain are spotting their spies. In fact, in TJE it's stated outright that they're using different races now because they are gambling on the margins in the spotting process being slim so someone with different skin color/bone structure could slip in. It's a gamble but not a bad one.

As for immortality making damnation a joke, see: Cleric. Immortality =/= invincibility. Besides it's the fucking principle I think, the Inchoroi are pretty pissed that they can't go around "loving" (read:raping) people without pesky objective morality "And for this we are damned?". And who knows how the rules are formed, tomorrow the whole thing could be rewritten, tomorrow a prophet could come and try to fuck them over anyway, better to just shut it all off once and for all And I'm certain that someone might want to die after sometime, especially among the Nonmen, becoming an Erratic isn't fun.

As for them not turtling...I guess they wanted to control the Three Seas until the time came? I mean, it's reasonable considering how good their skin-spies were, it took some really strange circumstances for them to be discovered at all. But they must need something, I don't see why else they would just not pretend to be dead either.

[Sci-2]

We don't know that the Inchi brothers are immortal. It's also possible that things like Consult immortality, Wathi doll, or becoming part of the watcher-watched circuit gates are all subject to entropy.

[Tears of Lys]

We don't know that the Inchi brothers are immortal. It's also possible that things like Consult immortality, Wathi doll, or becoming part of the watcher-watched circuit gates are all subject to entropy.

It's assumed that the Inchies are immortal and the Consult because they conferred immortality upon the Nonmen, right?

[Sci-2]

Maybe, but Aurang makes a statement about grafts sapping his frame. I think there's a time limit - albeit a distance one - on the Inchie lifespan.

[Tears of Lys]

Got a cite? I know the true body of one of the Inchies is back in Golgotterang and the bird body is just a projection, sort of. Are you sure that's not what you're referring to?

The is one of my evenings where I've actually had some alcohol, so I may be misremembering.... :)

[Sci-2]

It's in TTT, sadly I don't have my copy on me. The part where Aurang reminisces about the good old days of "bleeding whole nations white".

[jurble]

Yeah, I know the line, it seems to imply his real body isn't doing well. But Aurax seems fine.

[lokisnow]

grafts sapping the frame is probably a giantism issue, the heart can only supply so much body-mass sort of thing.

I sometimes wonder if the inchies can't reproduce until they cut off the native race of the existing world.

So they exterminate, then breed (or asexually bud or something interesting, or the ship buds out with lots of little inchies) the population back up and then move on to the next world. If they don't cut off the soul cycle they're fucked and their children are fucked. So the only way they can insure the world for their next generation is to exterminate the current world's population.

[Antonius Pius]

It seemed to me that the implication of the grafting was that it diminished Aurangs original form. So he's weaker now than he was when he came to Earwa.

Interesting point about reproduction. We don't even know if there are female Inchies (they're never mentioned), and if/how they reproduce. But from what we know in the books, they don't seem overly concerned about that.

[Kalbear]

Uh, that kinda defeats the purpose of spies.

If its the difference between the whole world knowing that you're not just an old wives' tale, it's the better play. Being blind is better than being revealed. Especially when (as is thought) all they need is time.

What incompetence and stupidity are you referring to here?

We've enumerated this so many times. But let's see: we have their response to the Dunyain. The response to Moenghus' revelation of the skin spies. The Womb Plague and that whole plan. The deploying the No-God into the field into the first place when all they need to do is sit still and chill out. It's all stupidity upon stupidity. At best it's arrogance that they cannot be beaten, but even that doesn't explain things like the womb plague.

You're assuming that they understand how the Dunyain are spotting their spies. In fact, in TJE it's stated outright that they're using different races now because they are gambling on the margins in the spotting process being slim so someone with different skin color/bone structure could slip in. It's a gamble but not a bad one.

I'm talking about why they weren't withdrawn when it was clear that Moe was finding them and they thought that the Cishaurim were the reason that they could be spotted. Withdraw the spies from the Fayanal, provoke the holy war against the Cish (or don't), and bide for time. What, is the three seas going to unite under Fane? Not likely. Put it this way: if they withdrew their spies after Moe first spotted them, what would Kellhus have discovered? What would have been revealed to the world? How would the Mandate have been shown to be right? Why would Kellhus even have any kind of power?

As for immortality making damnation a joke, see: Cleric. Immortality =/= invincibility. Besides it's the fucking principle I think, the Inchoroi are pretty pissed that they can't go around "loving" (read:raping) people without pesky objective morality "And for this we are damned?". And who knows how the rules are formed, tomorrow the whole thing could be rewritten, tomorrow a prophet could come and try to fuck them over anyway, better to just shut it all off once and for all And I'm certain that someone might want to die after sometime, especially among the Nonmen, becoming an Erratic isn't fun.

No indication that either shae et al or the Consult become erratic. Aurax and Aurang have been around as long as any of the existing nonmen. Immortality certainly is invincibility when everyone thinks you're dead. Now, the 'pretty pissed' part speakks to the correct idea behind their motivation - anger combined with religious fervor - but it doesn't make them particularly strong villains. They basically are terrorists, and frankly quite inept ones at that.

As for them not turtling...I guess they wanted to control the Three Seas until the time came? I mean, it's reasonable considering how good their skin-spies were, it took some really strange circumstances for them to be discovered at all. But they must need something, I don't see why else they would just not pretend to be dead either.

Exactly - they must need something. That something hasn't been revealed. Thus, we don't understand their motivations for shit.

[jurble]

Eh, we don't understand the minutae of their plans, but their motivation is simple - they believe they are ultimately damned if they die and while immortal, they are not invincible, and so they seek to seal shut the afterlife. That's their motivation. Although, I don't see a bigger reason for skin-spies other than they just require information, and needed to keep the Mandate from convincing humanity to launch an expedition against Golgotterath. Perhaps they've learned from earlier, too risky behavior that you ought to minimize as threats as possible? The Three-Seas and the Mandate pre-Kellhus ever reaching Golgotterath seems absurd, but you never know.

Moreover, the more disunified man is, the better come the Second Apocalypse, they'll be unable to defend themselves and confound the Consult's plans once again. We know the Consult kept Skin-spies among the Scylvendi - they could have been the prime agitators for the collapse of Cenei.

[Happy Ent]

The Consult actively uses skin-spies to influence politics in the Three Seas.

For example, the have agents at the Nansur court that persuade Xerius to join the holy war against the Cishaurim. This makes a lot of sense to me.

[Sci-2]

The skin-spies exist for more than keeping tabs. Aurang even says something about how they had to kill off the Cish because it would leave the Fanim part of the Three Seas outside their influence.

Their goal seems to require domination over the Three Seas, in control of the leadership. Though this makes me question why that one skin spy killed the Emperor...

[Kalbear]

Jurble, that's still not a motivation because it still misses the why. We know that they think themselves damned, that they think the only way to avoid damnation is to shut the outside off. But as you say, they are functionally immortal and have been forgotten by the world. They don't need to do it at all to save themselves.

So why do it? And that we don't understand at all. The motive isn't clear at all past a very surface explanation. They are immortal and completely unthreatened; why risk anything? I think I know, but that's not the same thing as knowing - and there are enough points between us here that make it pretty clear it isn't clear.

I can come up with as useful of arguments for the Others - they are a force of nature and come when the cold comes. They want to cover the world in cold so they can live everywhere. That's about the same level of depth we have from the consult.

[Sci-2]

Trisk's post makes me think even more than even having the No-God rise does not mean victory. Bakker has time and again showed us that supposedly unstoppable forces have weaknesses.

I suspect the No-God is incredibly fragile. Without the skin spies in place to fuck up civilization, I think everyone's awareness of the No-God would ensure the Mandate raising up a final Ordeal even without Kellhus.

I have faith that Bakker's too smart to have no[t] considered what are ultimately basic questions.

Also, does Zeum have a skin-spy infection?

[Shryke]

If its the difference between the whole world knowing that you're not just an old wives' tale, it's the better play. Being blind is better than being revealed. Especially when (as is thought) all they need is time.

Without spies you aren't just blind, you have no power in the three-seas either. It's a HUGE disadvantage (hence the purpose of spies at all times, ever)

As for revealing themselves, they felt certain no one would be able to spot their spies. And they were right up until Kellhus showed up. And after Kelhuss shows up, they can't become an old wive's tale anymore, so there's no point in trying to disappear. Might as well keep the skin spies going and do what you can with them.

We've enumerated this so many times. But let's see: we have their response to the Dunyain. The response to Moenghus' revelation of the skin spies. The Womb Plague and that whole plan. The deploying the No-God into the field into the first place when all they need to do is sit still and chill out. It's all stupidity upon stupidity. At best it's arrogance that they cannot be beaten, but even that doesn't explain things like the womb plague.

You've enumerated this so many times and many others, including me, have disagreed with large portions of it many times.

The first couple aren't even actual complaints. "their response to the Dunyain" and "the response to Moenghus' revelation of the skin spies" aren't even complete thoughts since you haven't explained what the issue is with it. Neither are stupid or incompetent as far as I've seen.

The Womb-Plague and the No-God are both issues wrapped up in the Inchies overall ideas and plans that we don't actually know enough yet to make any calls on.

None of this is "stupidity upon stupidity". Although there's certainly heaps of arrogance, but that's a thing for the Inchies and has been since the start. And from Cnauir in TTT, we know at least before the second trilogy, it was a huge flaw in them to assume themselves the greatest and smartest and most advanced.

I'm talking about why they weren't withdrawn when it was clear that Moe was finding them and they thought that the Cishaurim were the reason that they could be spotted. Withdraw the spies from the Fayanal, provoke the holy war against the Cish (or don't), and bide for time. What, is the three seas going to unite under Fane? Not likely. Put it this way: if they withdrew their spies after Moe first spotted them, what would Kellhus have discovered? What would have been revealed to the world? How would the Mandate have been shown to be right? Why would Kellhus even have any kind of power?

And then they have no spies and since they believe it's the Cishaurim spotting them, it's not like they are gonna go away anytime soon. So that's a threat that needs to be dealt with and to do that, you need spies for information/manipulation.

Kellhus might have spotted nothing but:

a) they thought it was the Cishaurim spotting them, so why would they remove them from places the Cishaurim weren't?

B) they need spies in Inrithi territory to get the Holy War moving and on track and winning

c) no one anticipated Kellhus and why would they?

No indication that either shae et al or the Consult become erratic. Aurax and Aurang have been around as long as any of the existing nonmen. Immortality certainly is invincibility when everyone thinks you're dead. Now, the 'pretty pissed' part speakks to the correct idea behind their motivation - anger combined with religious fervor - but it doesn't make them particularly strong villains. They basically are terrorists, and frankly quite inept ones at that.

The entire climax of TWP is about the power of religious fervor and you think it doesn't make them dangerous?

The whole point, again, is that they have the means to destroy the world and the fervent belief that they must. They are dangerous because they will never stop or give up or compromise.

[Marcus Cicero]

I love the idea of the Inchie being incompetent in light of their potential, yet still deadly enough to wipe out the world. They're punks; Cnaiur says as much when he calls them out on their cliched posturing.

The Dunyain make the most of everything; they take the 'Shortest Path.' Kellhus starts as a Prince of Nothing, and rapidly becomes the Aspect Emperor. The Inchies have immortality and uber-technology at their disposal, yet they come up with inelegant, overly macabre tactics as they strut around raping people.

I have faith that Bakker's too smart to have no[t] considered what are ultimately basic questions.

Or he's too caught up in his wild array of creations to have planned out a tight, hole-free plot.

I can come up with as useful of arguments for the Others - they are a force of nature and come when the cold comes. They want to cover the world in cold so they can live everywhere. That's about the same level of depth we have from the consult.

I hope the explanation, if we get one, is more interesting than that. Maybe not. I suspect Martin conceived of the series with a somewhat more traditional fantasy struggle in mind, but he soon discovered that he actually wanted to write Shakespearean character drama and political intrigue. As a result, we've seen and know very little of the Others, the entities who did, after all, open the series. Perhaps a similar thing happened with Bakker; the Consult has gotten so little attention because he's been so focused on EAMD and other philosophical shenanigans (not that that stuff isn't interesting). But with both authors, this seems set to change in the next book. The Winds of Winter implies a greater role for the Others, and Bakker seems pretty intent on 'peeling back the curtain' (his words) in The Unholy Consult.

[sologdin]

so focused on EAMD and other philosophical shenanigans (not that that stuff isn't interesting).

all series have philosophical assumptions and do philosophical work. most of the time, those assumptions and that work are well worn, like old shoes, as part of the background ideology shared by the readers, and therefore escape the readers' notice. that's why i usually think that the objection "RSB is too philosophical" is non-signifying, blinkered, hypocritical (not saying that you are making that objection, MC).

RSB's philosophical content, such as it is, limited to certain characters in specific ways, in PoN/AE at least, is not so noticeable to me, as someone who shares many of the postulates as part of my own ideological background, in comparison to tolkien, martin, and other standards of the genre, which are much more heavily saturated with uncritical bourgeois "common sense" (in the gramscian meaning), a perspective that might be subject to critique as part of RSB's writings, as, perhaps, we will unearth over at madness' reread project on a weekly basis.

it's all pure aesthetics, de gustibus non disputandem, of course--but it is nice to have a megaserial speculative fiction that very precisely addresses some of my intellectual interests as a reader and a writer. no one else needs to like it--but disliking it for too much philosophy is actually a dishonesty, covering over the true objection: i disagree with the philosophy therein and only want to read books that share and flatter my philistinism.

so, knock your lights out with goodkind, thugs.