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White-Luck Warrior X: X Marks the Slog


Spring Bass

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Just for the record: the Consult are not hedonists, nor do they go around raping things.

The Inchoroi were hedonists, walking around raping things. Two of these beings are left. We know we’ve met one of them.

(So far the jury is still out on us having encountered Aurax, as far as I remember.)

The Consult primarily consists of human sorcerers: the Mangaecca. They are about as sexed-up as Akka or Gandalf. (The Mangaecca are not the Hentaiecca, the long-lost ancient Gnostic school whose most famous cant was the Differential Dildo.)

The other large faction of the Consult are Nonmen. Also, not particularly hedonistic. We’ve met one of their members: Mekertrig (Cet’ingira), an Ishroi. A assume that the other ranking members of the Consult are also Ishroi or Quya.

Save Aurang and Aurax, nobody in the Consult is particularly concerned about sex, penetration, rape, pleasure, or any other form of hedonism, consensual or not. They are concerned about saving themselves from damnation.

The reasons for their damnation are varied. For Aurax and Aurang, damnation is simply part of their nature. “We were born for damnation's sake. Our very nature is our transgression.” The Nonmen and sorcerers are damned for other other reasons; but not for teabagging planets.

Aurax and Aurang, together with their largely exterminated species of Inchoroi, have tried to save themselves from damnation for millennia. This project has largely failed, thanks to the power of the Nonmen. The Inchoroi were defeated, their civilisation destroyed. The Mandate is not fighting a war against rape alliens from outer space. Nil’giccas did, and won. His own people were destroyed in the process.

The Mandate is at war with a cabal of human sorcerers, Nomen, and two surviving rape aliens. Now, Aurang and Aurax may have some special status in that group, maybe venerated as holy. They may even be extremely powerful. I assume that Aurang is part of the triumvirate (Aurang, Shaeönanra, Mektrig.) But they are only 2 guys, out of a faction that certainly has hundreds of members.

Also note that the Inchoroi did not build the No-God. The No-God arose only 2000 years ago, millenia after the Cuno-Inchoroi wars had ended. I assume (without evidence) that the No-God is Shaeönanra’s invention. He is the first big Consult ploy.

(The Inchoroi ploys, millennia earlier, included (1) zap everybody with lasers, (2) build weapon races, (3) womb plague, (4) incite the humans against the Nonmen with religion.)

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Actually you don't know whether or not the Consult is hedonists. We know the inchoroi are for certain, and from the glimpse of Shae we know he likes having lots of sex with flying tentacled phallic demons. We also know that they transgressed horribly when they found the inverse fire. So the actual evidence we have is that they are actually hedonists or at least leaning that way.

Same with Mek; we know he's into torture and pain for its own sake.

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He's the winged fellow holding interrogating the Northern tribes at the end of Warrior Prophet, right?

We assume that’s him. His appearance is identical to the named Aurang in the short story The False Sun, and a flashback Aurang in White-Luck who pulls some Anasûrimbor out of a coffin. Maybe all Inchoroi look like this, maybe not. His brother Aurax could look like a hamster for all we know.

We also assume Aurang possessed Esmi in T<sup>3</sup>, visited her in Darkness in the (likely glamoured) shape of a man, and puppeteers the Synthese.

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Actually we know for certain that they can project influence and control without skin spies, because we see it all over the place in the first three books via Aurang. We have him 'seducing' Esme in her interrogation, then later with the guy in the kilt, and then later with the possession. We see Aurang watching and interacting with humans in other places as well. There's no reason that this sort of thing via Synthese construct or the like can't project power or project spying. There's indication of collusion with the Consult in other places in history as well. And then there are the Scylvendi, who would likely do what they want as well. That's the magic I'm talking about. Since we've already seen them do it, we know they can.

And yet their main work is done via skin-spies because nothing you mention here gets the job done that those guys can.

I've explained why they don't need skin spies. Skin spies are great for causing direct action and policy, but they're completely unneeded for spying. Between using actual paid spies and using magic they can see whatever they want, basically.

You need that direct action though. You need to be able to manipulate policy and action in the three seas to keep them in check and under control.

By what other means can the Consult be the direct and most important adviser to the Emperor of Nansur, for instance?

You are severely underestimating the use of skin spies while also severely overestimating the foreseeable risk of the Consult's plan to protect that valuable asset.

No, it's an issue already because of the Cishaurim. Without that, I'd agree - but as soon as Kellhus finds one, it's time to cut losses and make that one a special mystery. If Kellhus doesn't have the Consult trying to fight him at every step he's got no leverage at all - neither does Akka. At that point manipulation of the holy war isn't even desirable - it's already rolling. Instead they sacrifice multiple skin-spies at various points in order to harass or try and kill Kellhus, when that's not even necessary.

And they lose some direct information that apparently Aurang can get anyway (since he can do things like farsee and whatnot) for a while.

This is endemic of the Consult in general - they react far too quickly and aggressively.

You seen very confused about what information the Consult has at any one time.

Why is it time to cut loses as soon as Kellhus "finds one" (whatever that means)?

They attack Kellhus because he's a threat to their plans. One who's capabilities and motives are completely unknown and for the Consult at that point, unknowable. Cutting their loses and abandoning the whole project makes no sense at this point since they still know the Cishaurim can eliminate their vital weapon against the three seas and so they must still be destroyed. Kellhus is an unknown, but one that works against them and so should be destroyed too.

None of this is irrational or stupid on the Consult's part. They locate their enemies and try to eliminate them. The only reason they fail is because they don't fully grasp the extent of the enemy they are fighting (the Dunyain) and that is something that they simply can't accomplish anyway because of circumstances.

And you seem to continually forget that absent Kellhus they're already somewhat hosed because of Maithanet and Moenghus. While Kellhus accelerated his plan, he did so because he was under attack by the Consult. If you simply ignore that and move away from Kellhus when it is clear that he can see spies, what do the Consult lose? Direct eyes into the Holy War, but again that can be covered by Aurang. Xerius was the primary ruler of it from afar anyway, and for some bizarre reason they sacrifice that spy almost immediately. What did the skin spies actually do when in the Holy War, anyway? Other than harass Kellhus, that is.

Except they know nothing of either of those Dunyain (or half-Dunyain) too. And can't know.

Your entire argument for the Consult's bad planning is based on completely ignoring that the Consult isn't omnipresent. They don't know everything you do. They have no idea what the Dunyain are and don't and can't even anticipate them. Not unlike everyone else in the three seas.

What the Consult know is that the Cishaurim are making their skin spies disappear and that needs to stop. Their plans only go awry because of Dunyain influence on both sides and the Dunyain are not a predictable element. No one has the information to predict their involvement or understand their motives or abilities. And that's why Kellhus wins.

Right at that second, sure. But it also immediately gave power to the Mandate, power that wasn't needed - and judging from the bizarre programming of hatred towards the Mandate and Seswatha, they really don't like the Mandate all that much. Why tell your most hated enemy that you're alive and that you're attacking via these new constructs? That mattered quite a bit in the end, and more importantly it mattered in that it told the most important enemy what was going on. It's a very odd strategy when they can simply just not reveal more.

1) it gave no power to the Mandate. No one believed them. Even in fucking Caraskand, they laugh in Akka's face. They've already won on that front. The Mandate is a joke. This risk of revelation you keep talking about doesn't really exist. It's a gamble on the Consult's part, perhaps, but one they win handily.

2) All the creations of the Techne seem motivated by base urges. And considering Akka walks by Skin Spies all the damn time without them going nuts, they seem very much in control. It's only when one is caught and revealed that they make good on their vast hatred of the Mandate.

So it's better to risk everything you have right now instead of wait 100 years or whatever? That seems pretty stupid, especially when they've lived for more than 4000 years already and 500 years without any issue.

The risk that is the Cishaurim isn't going anywhere for a long time afaik and god knows if their ability to spot skin spies could spread further afield. It's best to nip the issue in the bud before it gets out of hand.

And the Consult aren't "risking everything". They are, from their perspective, risking very little. They aren't attacking directly or anything. They were using one set of enemies to attack another and expending minimal resources doing so.

The only reason it goes badly for them in Dunyain involvement and the Dunyain weren't predictable.

Ultimately your problem is ignoring Moe and Maithanet. Absent Kellhus they still have these problems.

And both are just as unprecedented as Kellhus. The Dunyain are an element the Consult had no chance of anticipating.

Your argument just falls apart in the face of this fact Kal.

1) The Dunyain are the reason the Consult's plan fails.

2) There is no logical way the Consult could ever anticipate or understand the Dunyain.

3) Therefore there's no reason the Consult would ever anticipate the failure of their plan.

As to the Dunyain - they don't need to be predicted. They can simply be waited out or ignored for a time.

Can they? How can the Consult know this when they know nothing about them. The Consult don't know what the Dunyain are or what they want or what they are capable of. There's no rational basis for an assumption on their part that the Dunyain can be waited out and you are venturing into complete silliness by continually assuming there is.

I suppose that if the Consult isnt' anywhere near getting to the No-God yet, you're right - there's a need to keep some manner of control. However, if that's the case the whole urgency of the Great Ordeal is completely neutered. I'm assuming that Bakker isn't writing the Consult as some completely lame villains sitting in a hole and being unable to do jack shit any time soon, and urgency is important. But you're right - it could be that it'll take the consult another 2000 years to make sure that the No-god comes back. if that's the case though, the most important thing to do is not be revealed. If they are revealed they become possibly a threat; if they're not revealed they can go back and try again with something else later.

Except the threat of revelation is minimal at best unless you factor in the Dunyain and the Consult simply weren't capable of doing that.

The sranc hordes were unmanageable. They weren't a threat to do any major damage; they couldn't be directed except in herds, and wouldn't threaten the Three seas any time soon without the No-God. they're a good defensive force and a good way to oppose new settlement but not much more than that. We learned that in WLW too.

As to evil for evil's sake, that's exactly what the Consult have shown themselves to be time and time again. They're convinced that they need to destroy the world to save their souls despite, you know, not actually needing to do that. They enjoy raping because it's psychologically relevant to Bakker, but it doesn't actually fit well with their hedonism (their hedonism is entirely male, which is pretty stupid when you think about it at all).

They aren't "evil for evil's sake though". They are committing acts to save themselves from eternal damnation. It's not about evil, it's about self-preservation. It's a group committing extreme acts to save themselves.

And why don't they need to save their souls Kal? Like, I'd really like to hear why you think eternal damnation isn't something they'd really really like to avoid.

I will grant that the generic concept of their fanaticism is understandable. Their execution, however, is so very bad.

What's bad about it, pray tell??

How is committing the no-god to battle when every human is going to die in 40 years rational? How is making the nonmen's women dead and the men immortal a rational thing to do if you want to ensure that you win? How is trying to unite the humans in one big happy family a rational response to them killing your skin spies? These things aren't rational based on what we know.

And on most of those, we don't know shit, so why are you assuming much of anything? We know nothing about the no-god and little to nothing about the womb-plague or what was necessary for it.

And the third one is just dumb. They didn't set out to unite the humans in one big happy family and doing so wasn't a predictable outcome of their plan. (after all, the 1st Crusade didn't unite jackshit)

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What the Consult know is that the Cishaurim are making their skin spies disappear and that needs to stop.
No. See, this is the fundamental disagreement between you and I. They know that the Cish are making their skin spies disappear.

They want that to stop. They don't need that to stop, and I've pointed out several ways in which it's not actually harmful at all. I understand you believe this to be the case, and I think that the Consult thinks that way, but this is the wrong thing to do. When your biggest weapon is invisibility you don't sacrifice that to protect your information and influence. That's the part that is stupid, regardless of whether it's Dunyain, Cish or something else. That's the part that's poorly thought out. That the skin spies are apparently programmed to hate the Mandate irrationally is another problem, but the main problem is that the Consult are willing to sacrifice their invisibility to protect burned assets.

ETA:

And why don't they need to save their souls Kal? Like, I'd really like to hear why you think eternal damnation isn't something they'd really really like to avoid.
Because they're immortal. Because they can do all sorts of things like develop plagues that wipe out most life on earwa if they want, apparently. Or come up with weapon races that are simply better. I'm sure they'd like to avoid damnation, but I think their motivation works significantly better if you frame it from the ground of them being irrational zealots, not rational actors trying to save themselves specifically. As has been pointed out, they have functional immortality, and so do the Mangaccea via using conduits and Wathi doll-like constructs. They can reasonably live forever without doing anything special. No - a race of immortal hedonists doesn't go from world to world just to rationally try and stop the Outside from existing. That's something only the righteous would try.
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You know, I wonder what it was like when the Mandate "openly" warred against the Consult in the Three Seas. Doesn't Akka mention at one point that the Consult only appeared to disappear a few hundred years before the start of the Holy War?

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Yep, Mayor Bass. They didn't openly war (not like the Ordeal), but they fought in school fights like the Cish/Scarlet Spires did as far as I can tell. They would pick off Mandate people and the Mandate would stop plots and the like. And then they disappeared.

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No. See, this is the fundamental disagreement between you and I. They know that the Cish are making their skin spies disappear.

They want that to stop. They don't need that to stop, and I've pointed out several ways in which it's not actually harmful at all. I understand you believe this to be the case, and I think that the Consult thinks that way, but this is the wrong thing to do. When your biggest weapon is invisibility you don't sacrifice that to protect your information and influence. That's the part that is stupid, regardless of whether it's Dunyain, Cish or something else. That's the part that's poorly thought out. That the skin spies are apparently programmed to hate the Mandate irrationally is another problem, but the main problem is that the Consult are willing to sacrifice their invisibility to protect burned assets.

Except the Holy War, absent Dunyain interference, doesn't sacrifice their invisibility. Only the continued existence of the Cishaurim does. That's the whole problem with your argument. The only problem with their plan is the Dunyain and there's no way the Dunyain could have been foreseen. This "sacrifice" you mention is either small or non-existent.

As for not even protecting the assets tehmselves, that's completely foolish. The Consult wants and apparently needs information about and influence in the three seas. And so they need spies. And skin spies are the type of spies that best preserve the advantage you keep harping on: invisibility. That's a very valuable asset and well worth the minimal risk of the initial plan to protect.

ETA:Because they're immortal. Because they can do all sorts of things like develop plagues that wipe out most life on earwa if they want, apparently. Or come up with weapon races that are simply better. I'm sure they'd like to avoid damnation, but I think their motivation works significantly better if you frame it from the ground of them being irrational zealots, not rational actors trying to save themselves specifically. As has been pointed out, they have functional immortality, and so do the Mangaccea via using conduits and Wathi doll-like constructs. They can reasonably live forever without doing anything special. No - a race of immortal hedonists doesn't go from world to world just to rationally try and stop the Outside from existing. That's something only the righteous would try.

Except we don't know if they are 100% immune from decay over time and accidents still happen. Death is essentially inevitable over a long enough time frame.

And the books themselves point out that their mastery of the Techne most definitely doesn't qualify as mastery and so your other ideas are very likely not within their means.

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I imagine it had to have been cloak and daggers -> like the synthese talking to the boy at the end of TTT, they would use human intermediaries, runners, spies, etc just like the Mandate and the other great factions use. I can't imagine one of the Consult themselves coming to the Three Seas in person, it would be way too damn risky. I assume the Mangaecca don't look too human anymore and their marks would probably be beacons to the Few, same with the Erratics and the Inchoroi. Some evil birds flying around directing human spy-networks? Do-able.

I really want to know how the Consult manages to keep Erratics in-line? Or what even happened with those Nonmen in the Six-Yoke legion. That fat wizard spots them corraling the Sranc along with the Ursranc and then... We never hear how the fight against the legion went, but we assume it went swimmingly. But there were, what? a dozen Quya alongside that legion. Moreover, Serwa carries whathisface back to camp. Did the rest of the Swayali really take on a dozen erratic Quya? They should have died.

But back to my previous point, how did those Quya, assuming they're Erratic not Intact, even know what they were doing? Nil'giccas needs Kosoter to shepard him around, but otherwise I guess he just blindly passes through his day like the dude in Memento. What if the Ursranc were actually in charge of that legion, and corraling the Quya, who were just absent-mindedly walking alongside a bunch of Sranc.

Of course, they could be Intact, and then the point is moot.

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Yes. I want to say that he says it's about 300 years before our story w/ Akka starts. However, the follow-up question I would have to that is "In what way were they visible up to that point?" My recollection is that they were meddling in ways that were obvious to the Mandate but still not to anyone else, so the Mandate has been a joke in the eyes of most for a long time, but I forget in which ways they were visible to the Mandate up to that point of their apparent withdrawal. I'm pretty sure that Akka himself has doubts until the skin spy calls him Chigra.

As I remember, the Mandate's reputation as a joke is caused by the Consult apparently withdrawing from the three seas (which is in reality when they created the skin spies and thus replaced their more obvious means of spying). Before that people at least believed the Consult existed.

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As for not even protecting the assets tehmselves, that's completely foolish. The Consult wants and apparently needs information about and influence in the three seas. And so they need spies. And skin spies are the type of spies that best preserve the advantage you keep harping on: invisibility. That's a very valuable asset and well worth the minimal risk of the initial plan to protect.
The italicized portion is the part I want you to notice. Note that you're assuming that the Consult is doing this for a good, reasonable reason. that's your starting point. So you use logic like 'they need spies, therefore they need to protect their spies because they need spies.' Do you see the problem with that kind of logic?

I know they wanted the influence. I know that they wanted better grasp of what was going on. I don't see why any of the plans we've seen so far required it. Point of fact, before the Dunyain showed up do we even know what the fuck the Consult was actually doing? Nope. Again - no clear motivations. Anyway, my argument has been consistently that the influence thing is a 'nice to have' part. And once again, the Consult sacrificed one of the only ways they could actually lose (their invisibility) for being able to win more. They did this with the womb plague, they did it with the No God, and they do it again here.

And the books themselves point out that their mastery of the Techne most definitely doesn't qualify as mastery and so your other ideas are very likely not within their means.
We know they possessed the ability to create skin spies. We could argue that they've been working towards those for thousands of years or simply a few hundred, but the point is that they can at least do something like that - create superhumanly strong, intelligent actors who are occasionally ensouled and can use magic. Why wouldn't we think that given enough time they could do more? I know they're not masters, but they know how to create a No-God and they can create skin spies. Why would we think they can't do more? That seems foolish given the evidence we have that they can.
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Hmm if I were the Consult, I'd try to make.... turtle-tanks. Cavalry charges? P'fah! Turtle-tanks, each foot 3 turtles fused together. Each leg? 3 very long turtles fused together. It's body? 3 turtles. Its face? 3 turtles. Actually, the Consult needs a navy, don't it?

Mermen-Sranc?

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The italicized portion is the part I want you to notice. Note that you're assuming that the Consult is doing this for a good, reasonable reason. that's your starting point. So you use logic like 'they need spies, therefore they need to protect their spies because they need spies.' Do you see the problem with that kind of logic?

Uh no Kal. I'm saying the Consult's goals apparently require spies (something that is perfectly 100% reasonable) and thus they will act to protect that asset.

You continually want to pretend like spies are unneeded because ... well because your argument only works if you assume the Consult doesn't need spies. And yet that's an assumption that the book contradicts and in a way that's not at all unreasonable.

I know they wanted the influence. I know that they wanted better grasp of what was going on. I don't see why any of the plans we've seen so far required it. Point of fact, before the Dunyain showed up do we even know what the fuck the Consult was actually doing? Nope. Again - no clear motivations. Anyway, my argument has been consistently that the influence thing is a 'nice to have' part. And once again, the Consult sacrificed one of the only ways they could actually lose (their invisibility) for being able to win more. They did this with the womb plague, they did it with the No God, and they do it again here.

Except they didn't sacrifice it. The plan as it were (create a holy war to wipe out the Cishaurim) involves absolutely zero risk of revealing their spies.

We know they possessed the ability to create skin spies. We could argue that they've been working towards those for thousands of years or simply a few hundred, but the point is that they can at least do something like that - create superhumanly strong, intelligent actors who are occasionally ensouled and can use magic. Why wouldn't we think that given enough time they could do more? I know they're not masters, but they know how to create a No-God and they can create skin spies. Why would we think they can't do more? That seems foolish given the evidence we have that they can.

Because we know it took them ages of trial and error to create the skin spies. The Consult's/Inchoroi's lack of real mastery of the techne is a well established thing.

Perhaps in the future they could do more, sometime, eventually, but that future is far from certain.

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If they stayed in their own temple and didn't bother with the skin-spies/interference, there wouldn't be much material for the book though?

No there wouldn't - but that's still not a proper in-universe reason for them to do it.

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there must be some explanation for the womb plague hiding somewhere between the stop of nonmen soul cycling , the death of non women ( and their inevitable burning and mass produce of qirri)

i imagine it went something like this

inchoroi dude: well , since you want to be immortal , we stoped your souls fromw leaving your bodies but you have to burn and eat your women to survive. oh dont worry, you will forget everything in a couple of millenia....

sounds like an inch plan if i ever heard one..

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there must be some explanation for the womb plague hiding somewhere between the stop of nonmen soul cycling , the death of non women ( and their inevitable burning and mass produce of qirri)

i imagine it went something like this

inchoroi dude: well , since you want to be immortal , we stoped your souls fromw leaving your bodies but you have to burn and eat your women to survive. oh dont worry, you will forget everything in a couple of millenia....

sounds like an inch plan if i ever heard one..

The cynic in me says the message stained the medium, and that is why we have womb plague AND eleven years of stillborns.

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