Happy Ent Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Here’s the image I had in mind, from the original 40K ruleset. http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/e/eb/Emperor_Imperial_Palace_Rogue_Trader.jpgShae is the emperor, the long line of captives are the psykers that are fed to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Shae has to be the 10 old dudes. It's easily the sort of creepy thing you expect from a Consult member. He can't just jump into any soul-trapping mechanism, since we're told that those mechanisms usually sheer you of your higher faculties, leaving only animal hungers. Only humans let him keep his mind, and he has to use that circuit of humans for whatever metaphysical reason. Also, I just noticed Kalbear isn't here. Where's he gone? The dude has valuable insights into this sorta stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I'm enjoying these "Earwa" art pics you've been digging up HE. I'll probably have to dig up what you said regarding the Mathesis Pin as well...Author update.If we're lucky, the slog-of-slogs isn't too far off.Please, Father. Author website eh? Nice to see Bakker making some strides to sell himself and his works!I know I'm being greedy but I'd love an All Earwa, All the Time website - Full Appendix + Art + Maps. I feel like I can't be the only one interested in some Nonmen music MP3 samples... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 i'd forgotten that Bakker named Shae's pin the Math-Thesis pin. Subtle, Bakker, Subtle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I honestly have no idea what this Mathesis pin is. But then again, I'm not the most observant reader, when people start discussing the metaphysics of the No-God I just blank out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 the mathesis pin is from the short story, "The False Sun," which Bakker posted on his website a few months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 So Shae is swirling through bodies, but is the rest of the Consult as fucked as him? Does the immortality the Inchie Brothers granted to the Nonmen fail to work on humans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 the immortality granted to the nonmen had a fatal flaw, their brains didn't have the capacity to sustain their experiences so far beyond their natural lifespans. I imagine the same would be true of humans, only after a few hundred years rather than a few thousand. If Shae's thoughts can be freed from a meat brain and exist in the ether he wouldn't necessarily be so constrained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Assuming there are other immortal Consult members who were formerly human, doesn't this mean that they too are in a collection of bodies?What I suspect is that the elevator amputees are not Shae's permanent host bodies, but part of the human circuitry stationed around Golgotterath. I'm assuming there are ambulatory bodies for him to use graft his soul onto at the top and bottom of the shaft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 But there are Nonmember who are Intact. What are we to make of them? That they just haven't gone erratic yet?I don't know, not every person who is 94 has dementia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Sorry; didn't see a lot of cause to respond. This reminds me of how we jumped all over the metaphysical notions of the big ass door in sauglish which ended up not mattering at all. It's a cool idea but I will bet a shiny nickel that it won't matter to the plot whatsoever. It's pretty wildly inconsistent in any case from what we have guessed about other souled mechanics, so what it reveals is little and less. The more revealing thing is that ishual is completely toast. Which makes me think either that Kellhus long since destroyed it or that this isn't where the dunyain actually are from. It also bugs that whatever form shae was in akka appears to have known about for a long time - but we are just finding out about now. Really cheap writing, that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 The more revealing thing is that ishual is completely toast. Which makes me think either that Kellhus long since destroyed it or that this isn't where the dunyain actually are from. Pretty sure that this was made clear in the first book. The Dunyain claimed Ishual, they didn't start there. The one comment that the Dunyain that met the young prince made seemed to hint that they already had some basic version of their philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 No, he means that Ishual, the fortress, isn't where the Dunyain are actually based. Of course the Dunyain didn't found Ishual or spring up there spontaneously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 By the way, can anybody dig up the quote where Kellhus describes the Consult? I think this is in Thought, when he talks to Aurang-as-Esmi. It went something like this, “Far up North, bodies are rocking in a circle about your real body.” Or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ereinion Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 By the way, can anybody dig up the quote where Kellhus describes the Consult? I think this is in Thought, when he talks to Aurang-as-Esmi. It went something like this, “Far up North, bodies are rocking in a circle about your real body.” Or something.Page 301 of the Orbit edition:''Across the world in Golgotterath,'' Kellhus gasped. still stamping out the coals of his manic lust, ''the Mangaecca squat about your true flesh, rocking to the mutter of endless Cants. The Synthese is but a node. You are no more than the reflection of a shadow, an image cast upon the water of Esmenet. You posses subtlety, yes, but you haven't the depth to confront me.'' Achamian had told him of this creature, that it's capabilities would be largely restricted to glamours, compulsions, and possesions. The great shout that was its true form, the Schoolman had said, could be heard only as whispers and insinuations at such a distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I'll probably have to dig up what you said regarding the Mathesis Pin as well...It seems to have fallen into oblivion, passing beyond the grasps of even the great Ciphrang Gøoglë and Bîng.I think my reasoning went like this: Golgotterath is protected by a space-filling curve. In our intellectual history, these objects are discovered at the end of the 19th century, by people like Hilbert and Peano. People interested in infinity, with associated concepts like (mathematical) truth, logic, dimension, … all very consistent with the intellectual make-up of Nonmen. This kind of math is very different in style from the unaxiomatic, practical, continuous calculus invented by Newton and Leibniz some century before. They really didn’t care about definitions, infinity, or truth: they just wanted to find some derivatives and calculate some integrals.(Out-of-universe: Bakker’s not a mathematician, so we can paint with a pretty broad brush. His understanding of math is filtered through what philosophers learn about this time.)Now, Shae comes with a different set of mathematical tools. I can’t quite point to a (Earth math) school, but maybe he’s a 20th century topologist. Or somebody from algebraic geometry? I have no idea.But clearly, Shae can define a concept of dimensionless force in the sense that his Mathesis Pin has 0 width while still extending force. (The space-filling curve will by arbitrarily narrow, so for every epsilon > 0 there is a level of the curve of width epsilon/2, blocking whatever force you try to apply.) Shae’s Pin, with width 0, passes through this gap. (Maybe one can think of different levels of infinity, or infinitesemality instead, but I can’t get this to work in my head.)Ajencis was a logician of the greek tradition, of course. (Kellhus extends his logic, so maybe Kellhus develops something like Frege’s Begriffsschrift from scratch while talking to Akka.)Chorae are just Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generic Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 It also bugs that whatever form shae was in akka appears to have known about for a long time - but we are just finding out about now. Really cheap writing, that.No? He figured it out after seeing the dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I honestly have no idea what this Mathesis pin is. But then again, I'm not the most observant reader, when people start discussing the metaphysics of the No-God I just blank out.That makes two of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Chorae are just Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem.nice. if you assume hilbert's formal axiomatics at the beginning, yeah, the aporos has to be godel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonius Pius Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Sometimes I wonder which language you guys are using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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