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White-Luck Warrior X: X Marks the Slog

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Mandate re-live only Seswatha's life experiences? So isn't it really significant for Akka to be re-living NC's now? Does Akka ever reflect on this in the books? Or maybe that's something that will come in TUC?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Mandate re-live only Seswatha's life experiences? So isn't it really significant for Akka to be re-living NC's now? Does Akka ever reflect on this in the books? Or maybe that's something that will come in TUC?

That's what I thought too. Akka's shocked when he relives Ses's mundane, everyday life experiences, and then when he gets NC's experiences is really weirded out. I don't recall how much reflecting Akka does on the NC experience. He doesn't have too much time for it in WLW.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Mandate re-live only Seswatha's life experiences? So isn't it really significant for Akka to be re-living NC's now? Does Akka ever reflect on this in the books? Or maybe that's something that will come in TUC?

He reflects on it several times, if I recall correctly. I remember him thinking in TJE about how bizarre it was for him to dream of Seswatha stubbing his toe, or screwing one of the Anasurimbor King's wives. Then he gets really freaked out when he has the dream of defending the Library at Sauglish where Seswatha is nowhere to be found.

EDIT: Tears of Lys beat me to it.

I don't recall how much reflecting Akka does on the NC experience. He doesn't have too much time for it in WLW.

He's also high as a kite for a big chunk of WLW, so that perhaps interfered with his ability to think. :laugh:

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DA's reaction to the dreams is one of the threads that holds the entire thing together. the first dream in PoN is dicked up, and the last dream in PoN is very dicked up, but they're S dreams, of the normal horrors. in AE, we get mundane S dreams and then bizarro N dreams.

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As regarding whether or not the Mandate is aware of Shauriatus, I think they are not, not Achamian's final thought, filled with wonder about Shauriatus:

To suffer this Dream the very day he would at last set foot in Ishuäl. To not only see Shauriatas, but to learn the true fate of Nau-Cayûti–or something of it. What could it mean to learn the truth of one great Anasûrimbor’s death, just before discovering the truth of another, even greater Anasûrimbor’s birth?

Also note that Achamian more or less got confirmation that NC could be Seswatha's son in WLW, and was less than impressed, it had long been rumored, but interesting that he still thinks of NC as an Anasurimbor, however, perhaps it is important that NC is Seswatha's son...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Mandate re-live only Seswatha's life experiences? So isn't it really significant for Akka to be re-living NC's now? Does Akka ever reflect on this in the books? Or maybe that's something that will come in TUC?

I've been ruminating on that for a while and I think it has to do with Seswatha's Heart.

And based on the last dream of TTT, the variant where the Heron Spear does not fire and all the weird fucking dreams since then, including Nau Cayuti, I've been wondering how NC gets into the dreams.

so, WTF is up with variant dreams, WTF is up with NC in the dreams, and WTF is up with Seswatha's Heart arguably the source of the dreams?

There are two ways NC could get into the dreams, one it's part of the magic involved with Seswatha's heart and not just Seswatha's experiences of the apocalypse are preserved therein; or two, Kellhus planted them when he hypnotized Achamian to talk to Seswatha.

So how does NC--who was captured by the Consult and taken into Golgotteranth, how do his memories get into Seswatha's heart, what comes before determines what comes after right? So if his memories got into the heart after all the events of the dreams, how'd he get out of clutches of the Consult?

There is a strong presumption that NC was in the NG, or may have been an integral part of the No God--perhaps NC was turned into a larval wretch like the ten wretchs powering Shaeonanra and he was inside the NG when it blew. If part of NC was inside the sarcophagus of the NG, it is possible that Seswatha recovered NC's heart from the wreckage and later imbued his own self into the heart as well, but he never did it to his own heart.

It's possible that what happened on the Circumfix, wherein Kellhus reached through his chest into the outside came back inward into Serwe's chest cavity and pulled her heart back through the hole so that it appeared he ripped his own heart out, it's possible that is how the NG was destroyed, not by the Heron Spear which malfunctioned as seen at the end of TTT.

I'm saying perhaps Seswatha--Nau Cayuti's father--reached into his chest and reached through the outside and reached back inward--which was inside the NG carapace and inside NCs chest cavity--and pulled NC's heart back out of his own chest. This loss of a heart in a body powering the NG caused it to go critical and boom.

Truly? Can you not see? In a world so vast, so fraught... The father who does not lie is no father at all.

– Protathis, The Over King

What if the lying father is Seswatha, a lie he's told for thousands of years...

What was happening?

He sat rigid, his breath pinched by the sense of things converging...

Origin to ending.

What came after to what came before.

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Lots of great ideas there.

Man, the stakes really are pretty high for this next book. There are so many things we're waiting on explanations for.

NC as part of the NG has been speculated for some time, but wouldn't we say at this point that we aren't entirely sure if the NG actually has any person in it at all? Isn't it possible that it's just some tekne construct? I wouldn't be surprised either way.

I do think it exceedingly likely that NC was somehow a part of its creation whether he was just one more person in the long line towards the golden room or whether it's something more than that.

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Clearly, the Heron Spear never actually fired. Seswatha's dreams are lies. The No-God suffered a Y2K error, because it hit the Inchie year 2,000 and was only storing the year in a 'XX' format not a 'XXXX' format. Seswatha joins the Consult as Chief Debugger, or something.

The fact that the Dreams establish Nau-Cayuti as Seswatha's son, before bringing us Seswatha's perspective is important, I think. I think it's possible Seswatha actually is communicating with Achamian. He wants Akka to know the truth about ... something. To this end, he shows Akka the conception of NC.

But then what's with the burning Sauglish scene? As far as we know Akka isn't even inhabiting any body in that scene. He's just floating in the air watching Skafra hover in place. What does that imply? Moreover, if Seswatha is communicating with Akka, how does he facilitate NC's memories onto Akka?

Mimara might be correct, and Akka is literally a prophet of the past. A normal prophet sees the future, but Akka sees the past for how it truly was. (Though, still I don't understand the Sauglish scene).

This implies that the Heron Spear really did not fire at the last battle. Which means what?

Remember, Anaxophas pulls the Heron Spear outta no-where, and everyone is like WHOA. Supposedly it had been lost at Eleonot. But, I don't see why the Consult would furnish him with a fake Heron Spear, and if it were a fake Heron Spear, how did the No-God truly die?

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Clearly, the Heron Spear never actually fired. Seswatha's dreams are lies. The No-God suffered a Y2K error, because it hit the Inchie year 2,000 and was only storing the year in a 'XX' format not a 'XXXX' format. Seswatha joins the Consult as Chief Debugger, or something.

The fact that the Dreams establish Nau-Cayuti as Seswatha's son, before bringing us Seswatha's perspective is important, I think. I think it's possible Seswatha actually is communicating with Achamian. He wants Akka to know the truth about ... something. To this end, he shows Akka the conception of NC.

But then what's with the burning Sauglish scene? As far as we know Akka isn't even inhabiting any body in that scene. He's just floating in the air watching Skafra hover in place. What does that imply? Moreover, if Seswatha is communicating with Akka, how does he facilitate NC's memories onto Akka?

If you take Akka to be a Prophet of the Past, then it would imply that seswatha was never at Sauglish, that he constructed a story about the epic battle of the burning of Sauglish--ala Michael Bay--but he didn't actually experience it--it's a seswatha fiction...

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Well, we know Akka's dreams aren't 'real' exactly; there are parts where present-day people are mentioned (the "who is Mimara" part and Seswatha's "Wait! This isn't how it happened!" in Sauglish). There are other odd inconsistencies as well, like seeing a battle where Seswatha isn't even there.

Here's a gotcha Nerdanel theory: the Consult and Mandate are the same. At the highest level, they are united, fighting a shadow war to bide time. The No-God failed in some other way or simply wasn't controllable or died due to philosophical differences or something. The dreams were always figments and make-believe, and now we're just getting a bit more. And what's worse - it's not Seswatha's heart. Seswatha is still alive in the same way that Shae is. It's Nau-Cayuti's heart.

And naturally Kellhus knows this - knows this ancient, ugly trick. He doesn't care because no one else in the Mandate knows at all; they are basically puppets at this point.

Why this is wrong: because the Consult's hatred of the Mandate is literally programmed into their DNA. Why would you do that if you're just pretending - to hold up pretense? That doesn't make sense.

My suspicion is that the dreams are going to end up another metaphysical gotcha. I'd love to be proven wrong. I also think the heart and the binding on it are not Seswatha exactly and there will be some switcheroo there; it's too perfect that the dreams repeat themselves so frequently and heavily. It's a means of control, not a way to communicate. It's a way to generate terror. That it is 'broken' for Akka as soon as he renounces his allegiance speaks to this; what use in controlling a piece that has forsworn the fight entirely?

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And what's worse - it's not Seswatha's heart. Seswatha is still alive in the same way that Shae is. It's Nau-Cayuti's heart.

My suspicion is that the dreams are going to end up another metaphysical gotcha. I'd love to be proven wrong. I also think the heart and the binding on it are not Seswatha exactly and there will be some switcheroo there; it's too perfect that the dreams repeat themselves so frequently and heavily. It's a means of control, not a way to communicate. It's a way to generate terror. That it is 'broken' for Akka as soon as he renounces his allegiance speaks to this; what use in controlling a piece that has forsworn the fight entirely?

I think that the theory that it is Nau-Cayuti's heart is pretty credible. I don't really know how Seswatha could have imbued his own heart with his memories anyway (pure speculation, but that sounds fatal). But imbuing his son's heart with that information has a certain symmetry to it (coming before/coming after). It would also help explain how NC's memory's are leaching into Achamian's dreams, although not necessarily why the other Mandate have been unable to see these memories as well.

Locke - That was a great post, lots of interesting stuff. I don't think I like the idea that the Heron Spear wasn't fired (the battle seems way less epic if it's just Seswatha saving the day through weird magic and coincidence. Using a miraculously recovered Consult weapon against them may seem trite, but at least it fits the scale of the struggle). But nonetheless, I think that Nau-Cayuti's heart = the heart the mandate uses = the heart that was recovered from inside the No-God is an interesting possibility.

I need to think on this more, and reread the "above Sauglish" dream, because if we have proof of dreams that are constructions, rather than actual experiences, then that calls into question the veracity of any of the dreams.

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Yeah; the more I think about it the more it feels plausible that it's NC's heart, not Seswatha's. And that Seswatha (btw: SesWATHA and Wathi doll? Hmm) programmed the heart afterwards. It doesn't explain the jumps though - why we get Seswatha's tale for some of it (even the unexpurgated parts) and then later the fictional ones and then later NC's tale without any jumps.

But yeah - I'm leaning towards all of it being a fiction.

Also note that if the prophet of the past thing is correct AND it goes both ways (the 'who is mimara' implies this vaguely) then we also have a plausible source for the Consult caring about the prophecy. Why would Mimara be important to the Consult? Because they know back, 2000 years ago, that she's important in the eventual end of the world. Which wasn't with the No-God - which they knew all this time - but was with Kellhus' rise to power.

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