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Spring Bass

White-Luck Warrior X: X Marks the Slog

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No - he knows that's what Kellhus told him. Now, we know that that happens to be true (and completely stupid), but Akka has no reason to believe that it's a lie or the truth, and really should be suspicious of anything Kellhus ever told him.

He can have inferred it from Kellhus, because Kellhus didn't know about the differences between the kinds of sorcery. We know from Kellhus' pov that he really didn't know. It could be that Akka surmises it's another Dûnyain ploy, and he'll definitely think twice about taking anything Kellhus said for granted, but at the same time, Kellhus needed Akka at that point in time. He needed his help in sorcery to become powerful enough to stand up to the Mandate. Furthermore, he wasn't touched by the mark yet, so he wasn't a magicuser (Akka knows this) and therefore extremely unlikely to know about magic.

Another question: Were Serwa and Moenghus...ahem,involved before they had to go to stay with the Nonmen or did they do it to estrange Sorweel and keep him an enemy?

I'm guessing they were. I had no reason to think they weren't, but with Dûnyain, who knows?

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I’d pay good money for W40K novels from Bakker.

He could write great Space Marine stuff. Even Slaneesh POVs. Or the Tau…

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Writing some stuff like W40k or Halo or Star Wars books would probably make Bakker a much better writer because he'd have to get better at smuggling philosophy instead of sledgehammering it (ala Neuropath) with jackhammer repetition. Not a bad career track to go write some B stuff for a while and come back with a new skillset.

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Another thing that I was unclear of as I was reading, does Kellhus already know that the Nonmen have thrown in with the Consult? Is this part of his plan already? Or is this something that he was unable to predict?

Additionally, how much of what the WLW does is written in stone? When he saw the vision of the dieing Kellhus, is that definitely slotted to happen? Or can something derail it along the way?

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Another thing that I was unclear of as I was reading, does Kellhus already know that the Nonmen have thrown in with the Consult? Is this part of his plan already? Or is this something that he was unable to predict?

Additionally, how much of what the WLW does is written in stone? When he saw the vision of the dieing Kellhus, is that definitely slotted to happen? Or can something derail it along the way?

I think he at least suspects, after all he was aware of Kosoter and Cleric. To me the interesting question is how much Serwa knows.

I think we're meant to be left in the dark about the WLW's ability to predict the future. I have to say I disliked the manner in which Maitha died. I get the deus ex was the point, but still left a bad black semeny taste in my mouth.

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I have to say I disliked the manner in which Maitha died. I get the deus ex was the point, but still left a bad black semeny taste in my mouth.

Does Bakker even realise how his work is so casually used in boardtalk? I'm not sure if we could get away with that phrase in public but it'd be fun to try. I am looking forward to using "EAMD" in public.

Maybe Bakker should enquire about doing some WH40K tie-in fiction - seems a few of us are intrigued and it could actually make him a better writer too.

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I am looking forward to using "EAMD" in public.

For the record, "honeyed anus" does not go over well in 99% of locations....but when it does it works wonders. :leer:

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i'm doing my reread for madness' site now, and up to 1/3 the way through TTT, have not literally encountered EAMD yet in the series.

you think y'all might've exaggerated it's iterability a bit?

(have also counted "death came swirling down"--4 instances so far, with one quasi-instance in DCB where something else abstract came swirling down.)

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i'm doing my reread for madness' site now, and up to 1/3 the way through TTT, have not literally encountered EAMD yet in the series.

you think y'all might've exaggerated it's iterability a bit?

Absolutely. I think at some point someone referred to it as something like "all the 'ever are men deceived' stuff can get old, and it somehow caught on.

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i'm doing my reread for madness' site now, and up to 1/3 the way through TTT, have not literally encountered EAMD yet in the series.

you think y'all might've exaggerated it's iterability a bit?

He knows the truth! ..... and death came swirling down ....

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I like the notion that Bakker would be a better writer if he wrote for an established universe like...Halo.

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i'm doing my reread for madness' site now, and up to 1/3 the way through TTT, have not literally encountered EAMD yet in the series.

you think y'all might've exaggerated it's iterability a bit?

This. I looked through the ebooks and I didn't find that many. Maybe a few "Ever do men X" and "Men are ever X".

Maybe it's just my impression but he seems to reuse "shimmering/incandescent geometries" or dazzling lines or whatever.

I like the notion that Bakker would be a better writer if he wrote for an established universe like...Halo.

He might learn something from esteemed writers like Karen Traviss *pukes* I hope not

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Wow, does everyone fall for Solo's sales pitch so easily? Did anyone take the pervasiveness of the words in EAMD literally? :shocked:

It was a statement serving as a stand in for all the sentences devoted to the deception of men, not four words that should be searched for in the text. :bang:

:P

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i'm doing my reread for madness' site now, and up to 1/3 the way through TTT, have not literally encountered EAMD yet in the series.

you think y'all might've exaggerated it's iterability a bit?

I think it's the sentiment, not the exact wording, that counts.

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all the sentences devoted to the deception of men

aren't those statements local to several characters, rather than general propositions fairly imputable to the writer? i.e., we need to separate author from text.

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I like the notion that Bakker would be a better writer if he wrote for an established universe like...Halo.

Considering Earwa is like 1000x more interesting then any of the worlds tie-in fiction settings mentioned, the idea seems ludicrous to me.

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On another note: Am I the only one that's sad that Kellhus can read Nonmen? Maybe I'm used to more traditional SFF where age makes a creature stronger but here everyone is a slave to the Dunyain, regardless of their age, race or creed. Younger is somehow much deadlier. I'd have liked for there to be at least one resistant faction.

Cnauir and the bird-man have a very interesting conversation about this in TTT.

Bird-man talks about how ancient they are and how age is power and yada yada yada and Cnaiur laughs at him and tells him the Dunyain will swallow them up as they do everything else.

The Dunyain, Cnauir thinks/says, are "perpetually new". A force unlike any that has existed before.

No - he knows that's what Kellhus told him. Now, we know that that happens to be true (and completely stupid), but Akka has no reason to believe that it's a lie or the truth, and really should be suspicious of anything Kellhus ever told him.

And yeah, he has no real plan. Get to Ishual through hundreds of miles of wilderness from a map that may not exist. in order to...what? It's a quest with rationalizations as the reasons for doing it. He walks on conditioned ground, and his hatred for Kellhus blinds him to seeing how obviously stupid his quest is.

Kellhus' statement that he knew nothing of sorcery is backed up fairly well by evidence Achamian has though. Not perfectly air-tight, but it's not like Akka is thinking things through superhard here or anything.

And there's no reason the Dunyain should be aware of sorcery. There first act was to purge all knowledge of it before sealing themselves off from the world. And it's not the kind of thing they'd stumble on by accident.

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The Dûnyain absolutely have no idea about sorcery. They immediately removed the sorcerous runes and texts when arriving to Ishual. After one generation nobody knew what it was. (Remember that the repudiate history.)

Really strange cult, the Dûnyain. The preserve and develop knowledge (say, about neuropuncture) but don’t keep track of what came before. The only thing they must store is pedigree, because of their breeding programme. That’s why Kellhus knows his last name. (Unless they’re all called Anasûrimbor, of cause. Maybe Anasûrimbor just means “level 5” in their Kuniüri argot, or maybe it just means “dude”.)

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I'm not saying the Dunyain do know anything - I'm saying there's no way that Akka can know this for a certainty. Or even trust what Kellhus has ever said; after all, Kellhus was manipulating Akka to give him the gnosis, and it worked by playing on Akka's need to be a teacher. That doesn't fly if Kellhus knows about magic. Who doesn't want a pupil who doesn't know anything about a subject but thanks to you becomes a master of it?

We also don't know about if the really high ups in Dunyainia know about magic or not. Kellhus did mention that he had heard legends about it but thought them to be myths and fantasies, so the notion of them hasn't been erased from their existence - just the practical 'this is it and this is how it worked' bit.

I don't think they knew anything useful about sorcery because if they had they would be ruling the world and/or wiping out the rest of creation to seal it from the Outside. That they didn't is evidence enough.

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I was just thinking of the Consult vs. the Others, and how Bakker's been able to maintain the "Oh shit" factor of the Consult's threat to the world, while explaining their motivations pretty well. It bothers me that 5 books in, we still don't know the motivating factor for the Others.

I wonder if Jon Snow will ever have to steal into the Heart of Winter/Golgotterath and rescue the Heron Spear/Lightbringer (gosh, I kept typing Ashbringer - a connection I never made before - what are the odds that Blizz stole Ashbringer from ASoIaF? Oh shit, what if the Others have Frostmourne!? That's how they've been raising zombies.)

Anway, Melisandre is Seswatha in this analogy. Which means that I predict that Jon Snow ends up getting poisoned, taken for dead (again?), beaten, raped, and submitted to the Other version of the Golden Room. Of course, it's possible that Jon Snow's current death is his equivalent to Nau-cayuti's death, in which case he's going to get the Nau-Cayuti/Theon treatment.... from Melisandre?

But I think the analogy works, what with the whole idea of your typical - Jon Snow and Nau-Cayuti are your archetypical heroes. But both GRRM and Bakker are intentionally subverting the traditional monomyth story, (and the hero's rebirth is a pretty common theme) but whereas Nau-Cayuti's story ends in horror, where will GRRM take Jon Snow?

If your traditional stories all follow the same general arc, is it possible that all subversions follow the same arc? Jon Snow will be beaten, broken, and presumably chewed up by sorcery and machinery? One can only hope.

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