White-Luck Warrior X: X Marks the Slog

[Kalbear]

Without spies you aren't just blind, you have no power in the three-seas either. It's a HUGE disadvantage (hence the purpose of spies at all times, ever)

As for revealing themselves, they felt certain no one would be able to spot their spies. And they were right up until Kellhus showed up. And after Kelhuss shows up, they can't become an old wive's tale anymore, so there's no point in trying to disappear. Might as well keep the skin spies going and do what you can with them.

First off they'll still have power in the 3 seas. Just not quite so direct. They'll still have magic users. Also, I'm talking about removing the spies from the Cish-infected areas. You don't need to do it from the Mandate, for instance.

Here's another fun thing - I love that the skin spies are programmed to absolutely hate the mandate to the point where they'll reveal everything once captured. For spies, that seems fairly dumb as far as it goes.

Again - where is any sign that anyone even cares about the Consult any more? As it turns out, Fane sticking around and making the humans divided is better for the Consult, not worse. Their whole plan to start a holy war is predicated on the notion that they have to keep their skin spies intact, but that's a really stupid idea when they gain so much more from doing nothing.

You've enumerated this so many times and many others, including me, have disagreed with large portions of it many times.

The first couple aren't even actual complaints. "their response to the Dunyain" and "the response to Moenghus' revelation of the skin spies" aren't even complete thoughts since you haven't explained what the issue is with it. Neither are stupid or incompetent as far as I've seen.

Sorry; thought you were reading before. I should have known better.

Their response to the Dunyain is to go completely apeshit and make sure everyone knows that the Consult is real in order to try and kill one guy that may be a problem. They go on a campaign in the North and reveal themselves. They send most of their skin spies in the field out to kill. They kill Xerius and burn that spy. They sacrifice all these pieces when all they really need to do is withdraw from Kellhus. It's as simple as that.

Their response to Moe was even worse; all they know is that the Cish have some way of seeing the spies. They also know that the Fane aren't trying to stop the apocalypse or anything like that; they're just chilling. Their response is to raise the entire inrithi world to kill the Fane. Now you'll notice that this is the plan that allows Kellhus to create the Great Ordeal and unify the humans against the Consult, right? The plan that appears to be the best way to stop them? That's what they do. So they sacrifice their invulnerability via secrecy and sacrifice their spies so that they can better unite the three seas and make it even worse for them. How is this not a stupid plan?

The Womb-Plague and the No-God are both issues wrapped up in the Inchies overall ideas and plans that we don't actually know enough yet to make any calls on.

None of this is "stupidity upon stupidity". Although there's certainly heaps of arrogance, but that's a thing for the Inchies and has been since the start. And from Cnauir in TTT, we know at least before the second trilogy, it was a huge flaw in them to assume themselves the greatest and smartest and most advanced.

Okay, if you like - they continually make big flaws over and over, and we don't understand them well enough to know why they're doing it. I'm fine with that. So here's the choices you have: we don't understand their motivations but they could be competent, or we do understand their motivations well enough but they're idiots. Or possibly both - that we don't understand their motivations and they're idiots.

And then they have no spies and since they believe it's the Cishaurim spotting them, it's not like they are gonna go away anytime soon. So that's a threat that needs to be dealt with and to do that, you need spies for information/manipulation.

But that's the point - they don't need spies. Spies are a nice thing to have at this point. They only need spies if they want to manipulate the 3 seas into fighting a war that ultimately ends up sucking for them. If they simply withdraw for a bit and bide their time they have none of these problems. So what if the Cish can spot them? They know that the Cish aren't talking about the Consult with other groups, and certainly aren't allying with anyone.

Kellhus might have spotted nothing but:

a) they thought it was the Cishaurim spotting them, so why would they remove them from places the Cishaurim weren't?

B) they need spies in Inrithi territory to get the Holy War moving and on track and winning

c) no one anticipated Kellhus and why would they?

They don't need to anticipate Kellhus; they already know that someone can see them. They assume it's the Cish, and therefore launch an entire giant war to kill them with no evidence, but that's the wrong play when your best strength is secrecy and your best ally is time. They need spies to get the holy war going so that they can protect the secrecy of their spies - but that's not a good play either. The best play is simply to forget it for a bit and lie low. Why protect the spies? You don't need them, except to start a holy war that is useful only for protecting the spies.

The entire climax of TWP is about the power of religious fervor and you think it doesn't make them dangerous?

The whole point, again, is that they have the means to destroy the world and the fervent belief that they must. They are dangerous because they will never stop or give up or compromise.

I don't disagree that they're dangerous. I didn't think that I had said otherwise. A terrorist with a nuclear weapon is dangerous too. But that doesn't make the terrorist a particularly amazing villain or something that's worth respect, nor does it mean their motivation is deep or profound. They simply hate. That's it. We don't even know why they hate.

Again, compare to the Others - the Others are clearly hugely dangerous to Westeros. Far more than what we've seen of the current Consult, which had weak proxies and spies portrayed and little else. But we know little and less of their motivations. Do we need to know much about an alien race that wants genocide in either case? With the Consult they are framed as being humanish - a future version of us with pleasure woven into everything - so we need to get their motivations and feelings. But the Others don't need motivation any more than a tornado needs motivation. They're not a cautionary tale about hedonism or neuroscience or whatever. They're not allegory; they're just alien.

RSB' philosophical stuff, in PoN/AE at least, is not so noticeable to me, as someone who shares many of the postulates as part of my own ideological background, in comparison to tolkien, martin, and other standards of the genre, which are much more heavily saturated with uncritical bourgeois "common sense" (in the gramscian meaning

I think that's unfair, Sol. Very few fantasy novels have preachers preaching to you about how this is the right way to think. In that respect it stands out quite heavily; I think a lot of people are complaining less about the philosophy that is espoused and more about that people are talking about the philosophy instead of showing it.

[Marcus Cicero]

so focused on EAMD and other philosophical shenanigans (not that that stuff isn't interesting).

all series have philosophical assumptions and do philosophical work. most of the time, those assumptions and that work are well worn, like old shoes, as part of the background ideology shared by the readers, and therefore escape the readers' notice. that's why i usually think that the objection "RSB is too philosophical" is non-signifying, blinkered, hypocritical (not saying that you are making that objection, MC).

RSB's philosophical content, such as it is, limited to certain characters in specific ways, in PoN/AE at least, is not so noticeable to me, as someone who shares many of the postulates as part of my own ideological background, in comparison to tolkien, martin, and other standards of the genre, which are much more heavily saturated with uncritical bourgeois "common sense" (in the gramscian meaning), a perspective that might be subject to critique as part of RSB's writings, as, perhaps, we will unearth over at madness' reread project on a weekly basis.

it's all pure aesthetics, de gustibus non disputandem, of course--but it is nice to have a megaserial speculative fiction that very precisely addresses some of my intellectual interests as a reader and a writer. no one else needs to like it--but disliking it for too much philosophy is actually a dishonesty, covering over the true objection: i disagree with the philosophy therein and only want to read books that share and flatter my philistinism.

so, knock your lights out with goodkind, thugs.

I never said that the series was 'too' philosophical. Bakker's 'deep' themes are a big part of the books' appeal. But he does tend to repeat himself a bit, and this affects the series's pacing.

[Sci-2]

i disagree with the philosophy therein and only want to read books that share and flatter my philistinism.

so, knock your lights out with goodkind, thugs.

Actually I think the philosophy (or whatever you want to call it), EAMD, WCBDWCA, all that jazz is great...in the first series.

It becomes less great as it continues on, in relatively similar language, in the second series. Then even less as the author trots it out in real life discussions.

[Shryke]

Jurble, that's still not a motivation because it still misses the why. We know that they think themselves damned, that they think the only way to avoid damnation is to shut the outside off. But as you say, they are functionally immortal and have been forgotten by the world. They don't need to do it at all to save themselves.

So why do it? And that we don't understand at all. The motive isn't clear at all past a very surface explanation. They are immortal and completely unthreatened; why risk anything? I think I know, but that's not the same thing as knowing - and there are enough points between us here that make it pretty clear it isn't clear.

Never dying of old age doesn't mean you can't or won't eventually die.

[Castel]

Never dying of old age doesn't mean you can't or won't eventually die.

And I think they have a motivation similar to the one people attribute to the Dunyain-even if I prefer the simplest explanation, Moenghus was damned because he was a sorcerer-: shit from the Outside leaks in. We have a crazy Yatwerian priestess running around fucking everything up (sometimes literally) and another tool being protected from harm by the same goddess and Kelmomas is possibly a tool of Ajokli (personally I think he's just crazy). And who the hell knows where Fane and Inri Sejenus came from? All that meddling cannot be good. It's better to kill them off on principle and avoid them coming after you.

Also, Aurang has definitely gotten weaker, we have no idea how long he can go on like he is.

[Kalbear]

When you live in an impenetrable space ship that requires a thousand mile hike through rape Orc infested wilderness just to get there and all your enemies are dead or insane, it basically does.

[Castel]

They don't need to anticipate Kellhus; they already know that someone can see them. They assume it's the Cish, and therefore launch an entire giant war to kill them with no evidence, but that's the wrong play when your best strength is secrecy and your best ally is time. They need spies to get the holy war going so that they can protect the secrecy of their spies - but that's not a good play either. The best play is simply to forget it for a bit and lie low. Why protect the spies? You don't need them, except to start a holy war that is useful only for protecting the spies.

Except that the war was the Dunyain. They only allowed the war to move forward. The spies were there to control the Holy War and made sure it all went according to plan but they didn't start it.

Also, I guess I missed something, but why is the Womb-Plague stupid? It seemed to have worked...

[Shryke]

First off they'll still have power in the 3 seas. Just not quite so direct. They'll still have magic users. Also, I'm talking about removing the spies from the Cish-infected areas. You don't need to do it from the Mandate, for instance.

That doesn't make any sense. They have no power or influence in the three seas without the skin spies. They have no other agents. The only magic users you could be referring to are the ones up north in Golgoterath and those guys have no power in the three seas. Unless they, like, invade and that kinda defeats the purpose of hiding.

They need influence and information about the three seas and so they need spies.

Again - where is any sign that anyone even cares about the Consult any more? As it turns out, Fane sticking around and making the humans divided is better for the Consult, not worse. Their whole plan to start a holy war is predicated on the notion that they have to keep their skin spies intact, but that's a really stupid idea when they gain so much more from doing nothing.

What do they gain? If they do nothing, they lose all power and influence and information about a huge and growing section of the three seas. And all just to be extra paranoid about staying secret. Something that wouldn't even be an issue if not for Kellhus.

You seem to have this weird notion that this is a risky plan. Absent Kellhus, it's not. Absent Kellhus, the skin spies can't be found out. And when they are, no one fucking believes it. They laugh in Akka's face, twice, about the issue. Only when Kellhus seizes control does their plan actually fall apart.

And Kellhus is the unpredicted and unpredictable element.

Here's another fun thing - I love that the skin spies are programmed to absolutely hate the mandate to the point where they'll reveal everything once captured. For spies, that seems fairly dumb as far as it goes.

Their response to the Dunyain is to go completely apeshit and make sure everyone knows that the Consult is real in order to try and kill one guy that may be a problem. They go on a campaign in the North and reveal themselves. They send most of their skin spies in the field out to kill. They kill Xerius and burn that spy. They sacrifice all these pieces when all they really need to do is withdraw from Kellhus. It's as simple as that.

They don't know what Kellhus is, so they don't know exactly how to react to him. That's why the end of TWP is them scouring the north for information about the Dunyain.

And again, they revealed themselves, twice, and no one believed it was the Consult. It was a bit risky but they guessed, and correctly so, that it wouldn't compromise their hidden status and they were right. You keep ignoring that the Consult didn't reveal themselves in any way that mattered. The Emperor and Conphas look a skin spy right in the face and still think it's the Cishaurim.

Their response to Moe was even worse; all they know is that the Cish have some way of seeing the spies. They also know that the Fane aren't trying to stop the apocalypse or anything like that; they're just chilling. Their response is to raise the entire inrithi world to kill the Fane. Now you'll notice that this is the plan that allows Kellhus to create the Great Ordeal and unify the humans against the Consult, right? The plan that appears to be the best way to stop them? That's what they do. So they sacrifice their invulnerability via secrecy and sacrifice their spies so that they can better unite the three seas and make it even worse for them. How is this not a stupid plan?

They aren't just chilling, they are loosing power, influence and eyes in a huge section of the three seas. This is not a situation they can let go unchallenged and their plan to deal with it is pretty simple and would have probably been effective except for the influence of Kellhus.

Okay, if you like - they continually make big flaws over and over, and we don't understand them well enough to know why they're doing it. I'm fine with that. So here's the choices you have: we don't understand their motivations but they could be competent, or we do understand their motivations well enough but they're idiots. Or possibly both - that we don't understand their motivations and they're idiots.

No, we have the option of "We don't fully understand every detail of their motivations and plans, but what we've seen so far is perfectly rational, fairly intelligent and consistent".

Their only blunder so far was not anticipating Kellhus and that's something that couldn't be done.

But that's the point - they don't need spies. Spies are a nice thing to have at this point. They only need spies if they want to manipulate the 3 seas into fighting a war that ultimately ends up sucking for them. If they simply withdraw for a bit and bide their time they have none of these problems. So what if the Cish can spot them? They know that the Cish aren't talking about the Consult with other groups, and certainly aren't allying with anyone.

They don't need to anticipate Kellhus; they already know that someone can see them. They assume it's the Cish, and therefore launch an entire giant war to kill them with no evidence, but that's the wrong play when your best strength is secrecy and your best ally is time. They need spies to get the holy war going so that they can protect the secrecy of their spies - but that's not a good play either. The best play is simply to forget it for a bit and lie low. Why protect the spies? You don't need them, except to start a holy war that is useful only for protecting the spies.

Because they still need spies in the three seas to see what's going on and to keep the three seas from moving against them.

And the Cishaurim aren't going anywhere. They aren't a power you can wait out. Especially since (as Muslim-analogues) their star is currently on the rise. Wait a few hundred years, and maybe the Fanim control the whole three seas.

Ultimately, your whole "problem" here is predicated on two assumptions:

1) that they don't need spies in the three seas

2) that they could have foreseen Kellhus and his abilities

1) is ridiculous because influence among and information about their enemies is very important to making sure their plans go off and they stay safe.

2) doesn't even make sense. The Dunyain are completely unprecedented and weren't in any way predictable. And absent Kellhus, their plan works (or, at least, doesn't go bad in a way that leaves them in worse position then before). The Skin Spies remain unrevealed or dismissed as Cishaurim sorcery if not for Kellhus.

I don't disagree that they're dangerous. I didn't think that I had said otherwise. A terrorist with a nuclear weapon is dangerous too. But that doesn't make the terrorist a particularly amazing villain or something that's worth respect, nor does it mean their motivation is deep or profound. They simply hate. That's it. We don't even know why they hate.

Again, compare to the Others - the Others are clearly hugely dangerous to Westeros. Far more than what we've seen of the current Consult, which had weak proxies and spies portrayed and little else. But we know little and less of their motivations. Do we need to know much about an alien race that wants genocide in either case? With the Consult they are framed as being humanish - a future version of us with pleasure woven into everything - so we need to get their motivations and feelings. But the Others don't need motivation any more than a tornado needs motivation. They're not a cautionary tale about hedonism or neuroscience or whatever. They're not allegory; they're just alien.

Uh, did you miss the hordes of Scran in the last book? The Consult has incredibly powerful forces and even their spies and proxies are deadly as hell. Only Kellhus kills them with any ease.

The Consult are interesting precisely because they aren't just evil for evils sake. They are fanatical hedonists convinced they must destroy the world to save their own souls. That puts them several heads and shoulders above a rather dull and bog standard army of evil like the Others. Their goals give them flavour and flaws and make them interesting and their fanaticism makes them dangerous in a way that's actually understandable.

A tornado doesn't need motivation because a tornado isn't a character. There's nothing interesting about a tornado as part of a story. It's just ... there.

[Shryke]

When you live in an impenetrable space ship that requires a thousand mile hike through rape Orc infested wilderness just to get there and all your enemies are dead or insane, it basically does.

Accidents can always happen. As long as you can be killed, you likely will be at some point. Even if that point is in the distant future.

And that's even assuming they are 100% never going to die of plain old age, something that also isn't assured.

[generic]

Turtleing for 2000 years is the most risky strategy I could think of even if all they need is time. A few generations of rapid population growth and moderate technical advancement could have humans knocking at their doors. And there is no reason to think that the Mandate would just go away. For all they know they could very well end up running the place.

[Castel]

Turtleing for 2000 years is the most risky strategy I could think of even if all they need is time. A few generations of rapid population growth and moderate technical advancement could have humans knocking at their doors. And there is no reason to think that the Mandate would just go away. For all they know they could very well end up running the place.

The Inchoroi, being technologically advanced themselves probably noticed this problem. Luckily the Three Seas is backwards and divided and magic has not/cannot be used for growth but that's not necessarily a bad thing, technological progress could be made if there's no cheap magical alternative.

Granted there's little chance that anyone will go into the north, a genocide today keeps mischief away.

[sologdin]

never said that the series was 'too' philosophical

i know. let me clarify: my remarks weren't responsive to your position; i simply used that position as a tangential jumping-off point for my own musings.

any textual evidence that The Consult, via their skin spy agents, actually made any conscious efforts to contribute to the notion that it's laughable that The Consult exists?

good question. mostly they just growl chigra! when DA is around, though, which appears to be reflexive. kind of a design defect, if the goal is to stay hidden.

also: playing the textual evidence card is cheating in threads like this.

[Kalbear]

That doesn't make any sense. They have no power or influence in the three seas without the skin spies. They have no other agents. The only magic users you could be referring to are the ones up north in Golgoterath and those guys have no power in the three seas. Unless they, like, invade and that kinda defeats the purpose of hiding.

They need influence and information about the three seas and so they need spies.

Actually we know for certain that they can project influence and control without skin spies, because we see it all over the place in the first three books via Aurang. We have him 'seducing' Esme in her interrogation, then later with the guy in the kilt, and then later with the possession. We see Aurang watching and interacting with humans in other places as well. There's no reason that this sort of thing via Synthese construct or the like can't project power or project spying. There's indication of collusion with the Consult in other places in history as well. And then there are the Scylvendi, who would likely do what they want as well. That's the magic I'm talking about. Since we've already seen them do it, we know they can.

What do they gain? If they do nothing, they lose all power and influence and information about a huge and growing section of the three seas. And all just to be extra paranoid about staying secret. Something that wouldn't even be an issue if not for Kellhus.

No, it's an issue already because of the Cishaurim. Without that, I'd agree - but as soon as Kellhus finds one, it's time to cut losses and make that one a special mystery. If Kellhus doesn't have the Consult trying to fight him at every step he's got no leverage at all - neither does Akka. At that point manipulation of the holy war isn't even desirable - it's already rolling. Instead they sacrifice multiple skin-spies at various points in order to harass or try and kill Kellhus, when that's not even necessary.

And they lose some direct information that apparently Aurang can get anyway (since he can do things like farsee and whatnot) for a while.

This is endemic of the Consult in general - they react far too quickly and aggressively.

You seem to have this weird notion that this is a risky plan. Absent Kellhus, it's not. Absent Kellhus, the skin spies can't be found out. And when they are, no one fucking believes it. They laugh in Akka's face, twice, about the issue. Only when Kellhus seizes control does their plan actually fall apart.

And Kellhus is the unpredicted and unpredictable element.

And you seem to continually forget that absent Kellhus they're already somewhat hosed because of Maithanet and Moenghus. While Kellhus accelerated his plan, he did so because he was under attack by the Consult. If you simply ignore that and move away from Kellhus when it is clear that he can see spies, what do the Consult lose? Direct eyes into the Holy War, but again that can be covered by Aurang. Xerius was the primary ruler of it from afar anyway, and for some bizarre reason they sacrifice that spy almost immediately. What did the skin spies actually do when in the Holy War, anyway? Other than harass Kellhus, that is.

And again, they revealed themselves, twice, and no one believed it was the Consult. It was a bit risky but they guessed, and correctly so, that it wouldn't compromise their hidden status and they were right. You keep ignoring that the Consult didn't reveal themselves in any way that mattered. The Emperor and Conphas look a skin spy right in the face and still think it's the Cishaurim.

Right at that second, sure. But it also immediately gave power to the Mandate, power that wasn't needed - and judging from the bizarre programming of hatred towards the Mandate and Seswatha, they really don't like the Mandate all that much. Why tell your most hated enemy that you're alive and that you're attacking via these new constructs? That mattered quite a bit in the end, and more importantly it mattered in that it told the most important enemy what was going on. It's a very odd strategy when they can simply just not reveal more.

Accidents can always happen. As long as you can be killed, you likely will be at some point. Even if that point is in the distant future.

And that's even assuming they are 100% never going to die of plain old age, something that also isn't assured.

So it's better to risk everything you have right now instead of wait 100 years or whatever? That seems pretty stupid, especially when they've lived for more than 4000 years already and 500 years without any issue.

No, we have the option of "We don't fully understand every detail of their motivations and plans, but what we've seen so far is perfectly rational, fairly intelligent and consistent".

How is committing the no-god to battle when every human is going to die in 40 years rational? How is making the nonmen's women dead and the men immortal a rational thing to do if you want to ensure that you win? How is trying to unite the humans in one big happy family a rational response to them killing your skin spies? These things aren't rational based on what we know.

Ultimately, your whole "problem" here is predicated on two assumptions:

1) that they don't need spies in the three seas

2) that they could have foreseen Kellhus and his abilities

1) is ridiculous because influence among and information about their enemies is very important to making sure their plans go off and they stay safe.

2) doesn't even make sense. The Dunyain are completely unprecedented and weren't in any way predictable. And absent Kellhus, their plan works (or, at least, doesn't go bad in a way that leaves them in worse position then before). The Skin Spies remain unrevealed or dismissed as Cishaurim sorcery if not for Kellhus.

Ultimately your problem is ignoring Moe and Maithanet. Absent Kellhus they still have these problems.

I've explained why they don't need skin spies. Skin spies are great for causing direct action and policy, but they're completely unneeded for spying. Between using actual paid spies and using magic they can see whatever they want, basically. As to the Dunyain - they don't need to be predicted. They can simply be waited out or ignored for a time. I suppose that if the Consult isnt' anywhere near getting to the No-God yet, you're right - there's a need to keep some manner of control. However, if that's the case the whole urgency of the Great Ordeal is completely neutered. I'm assuming that Bakker isn't writing the Consult as some completely lame villains sitting in a hole and being unable to do jack shit any time soon, and urgency is important. But you're right - it could be that it'll take the consult another 2000 years to make sure that the No-god comes back. if that's the case though, the most important thing to do is not be revealed. If they are revealed they become possibly a threat; if they're not revealed they can go back and try again with something else later.

Uh, did you miss the hordes of Scran in the last book? The Consult has incredibly powerful forces and even their spies and proxies are deadly as hell. Only Kellhus kills them with any ease.

The Consult are interesting precisely because they aren't just evil for evils sake. They are fanatical hedonists convinced they must destroy the world to save their own souls. That puts them several heads and shoulders above a rather dull and bog standard army of evil like the Others. Their goals give them flavour and flaws and make them interesting and their fanaticism makes them dangerous in a way that's actually understandable.

A tornado doesn't need motivation because a tornado isn't a character. There's nothing interesting about a tornado as part of a story. It's just ... there.

The sranc hordes were unmanageable. They weren't a threat to do any major damage; they couldn't be directed except in herds, and wouldn't threaten the Three seas any time soon without the No-God. they're a good defensive force and a good way to oppose new settlement but not much more than that. We learned that in WLW too.

As to evil for evil's sake, that's exactly what the Consult have shown themselves to be time and time again. They're convinced that they need to destroy the world to save their souls despite, you know, not actually needing to do that. They enjoy raping because it's psychologically relevant to Bakker, but it doesn't actually fit well with their hedonism (their hedonism is entirely male, which is pretty stupid when you think about it at all).

I will grant that the generic concept of their fanaticism is understandable. Their execution, however, is so very bad.

[Spring Bass]

Nitpick, but

How is committing the no-god to battle when every human is going to die in 40 years rational? How is making the nonmen's women dead and the men immortal a rational thing to do if you want to ensure that you win?

What makes you think they actually controlled the No-God's actions once it was summoned? The "What Has Come Before" section of White Luck Warrior says that they "made themselves slaves to better to destroy the world" right after it describes their success in summoning it. For all we know, the No-God itself decided to take the field the day it was destroyed.

As for the Non-men, they needed something to get them direct access to all Non-men, male and female, after a period when they were hiding in the Ark due to the pre-existing conflict. The promise of immortality was a good hook to do that, especially since they believed that they would wipe out the Non-men shortly after all their females died with their Space Age weaponry plus the Weapons Races (they were clearly prepared for an assault to happen the day that Cunara Cinjoi showed up at Golgotterah with his wife's corpse).

So it's better to risk everything you have right now instead of wait 100 years or whatever? That seems pretty stupid, especially when they've lived for more than 4000 years already and 500 years without any issue.

They were once a Space Age civilization, and it was their own weaponry that brought down the No-God last time. Waiting for a significantly longer period simply increases the chance that human civilization will develop more advanced weapons that could be used against the Weapons Races and the No-God, as was pointed out above.

[Sci-2]

Is there any textual evidence that The Consult, via their skin spy agents, actually made any conscious efforts to contribute to the notion that it's laughable that The Consult exists?

They had a skin spy who was all up in the Mandate HQ, fucking up their shit right?

[Sci-2]

eta: quote

I was thinking of someone in a position more like that of Skeos where they might be able to spread negative stuff to make them look foolish or damage their credibility.

I'm sure it happened, even if it wasn't explicitly stated. But the biggest reason no one gave a fuck was because the Mandate couldn't produce evidence.

This is why, I assume, Kal thinks the smartest thing for the Consult to do is withdraw it's its skinspies. But this assumes that the only function of the face-changers is information retrieval.

I'm trusting in Bakker enough to believe that he has a reason this was not done, and I suspect it's due to the need for the skin-spies to have delivered the necessary souls to power the No-God.

I also suspect that the No-God requires maintenance after being summoned. We know, after all, that whatever it ultimately is it likely isn't wholly a magical construct.

If it depends even partially on what Shae calls Mechanism, I feel safe in assuming it requires fuel of some sort.

What's interesting is if the No-God depends on Shae's mathematical ability. This might help us to guess what the No-God actually is.

[Sci-2]

No God is a sentient worm hole in the Carapace, reaching the Outside via dimensions higher than 3?

Does this create a contradiction in the Earwa script [because the Outside is Inside] that results in the non-cycling of souls?

[Kalbear]

What makes you think they actually controlled the No-God's actions once it was summoned? The "What Has Come Before" section of White Luck Warrior says that they "made themselves slaves to better to destroy the world" right after it describes their success in summoning it. For all we know, the No-God itself decided to take the field the day it was destroyed.

This is a good point; this just means that the No-God was stupid or bound by causality or something equally odd. But the Consult might have been GOD DAMNIT NO GOD DON'T GO INTO THAT HALLWAY and the No-God's all "TELL ME WHAT DO YOU SEE - DO YOU SEE THE MURDERER MAYBE HE'S DOWN THIS HALLWAY I'LL BE RIGHT BACK"

As for the Non-men, they needed something to get them direct access to all Non-men, male and female, after a period when they were hiding in the Ark due to the pre-existing conflict. The promise of immortality was a good hook to do that, especially since they believed that they would wipe out the Non-men shortly after all their females died with their Space Age weaponry plus the Weapons Races (they were clearly prepared for an assault to happen the day that Cunara Cinjoi showed up at Golgotterah with his wife's corpse).

Right, but they don't need to give actual immortality. They needed to give the promise. Also, why wipe out the women and make the men immortal? Why not just wait until you can develop something that works for both? And they knew they wouldn't have an easy fight on their hands vs. the nonmen since they had already fought - and lost - previously.

I guess it stretches my disbelief to think that you can make something that gives people functional immortality in men, kills all women, but you can't make something that kills everyone after 400 years. Or simply kills after a little while, or kills when adding a second agent.

This is why, I assume, Kal thinks the smartest thing for the Consult to do is withdraw it's its skinspies. But this assumes that the only function of the face-changers is information retrieval.

No, I mentioned that information retrieval is redundant and the influence is the harder thing to replace. But I've seen no evidence that the Consult needs it.

[Sci-2]

I guess it stretches my disbelief to think that you can make something that gives people functional immortality in men, kills all women, but you can't make something that kills everyone after 400 years. Or simply kills after a little while, or kills when adding a second agent.

IIRC someone asked Bakker if the Womb Plague was intentional or just the Inchi Bros fucking up. He said he wanted to leave it open to interpretation.

[sologdin]

the No-God was stupid

right. adams' whale, &c.