White-Luck Warrior X: X Marks the Slog

[sologdin]

goodness, that sounds like some nerds i knew back in 1998, right before episode I came out.

[aimlessgun]

Jesus christ, I was looking to get back into this thread but I think I have to reread all the books. I have no idea what anyone is talking about half the time.

[Castel]

If Shae can figure it out, is there any doubt that Kellhus can? I would murder the world for this book. Commit atrocities unimaginable.

God, Kellhus better not come out of this series being immortal. That may be why he's heading to Golgotterath but I really hope not.

[Maithanet]

Jesus christ, I was looking to get back into this thread but I think I have to reread all the books. I have no idea what anyone is talking about half the time.

I am right with you. I've read the trilogy + TJE twice and WLW once. I think I'll do a reread of WLW before the next book comes out, but overall this series is too dense to remember everything you need to remember (even just the names) when there are two year gaps between books.

[Antonius Pius]

So basically, what we learn fromn this chapter is how Shauriatas has kept himself alive.

I'm still absorbing this chapter, but do we assume Shauriatas has funneled himself through the amputees? Is his body still alive somewhere else?

[Sci-2]

You know....in a creepy way you have to admire Shae. He has been continually willing himself back from the Outside for thousands of years. That's fucking incredible.

Would Kellhus do the same thing to gain immortality? I'm thinking no -> He would, at that point, be a complete victim to his hunger for life, and a failure at the Dunyain mission.

[Castel]

You know....in a creepy way you have to admire Shae. He has been continually willing himself back from the Outside for thousands of years. That's fucking incredible.

Would Kellhus do the same thing to gain immortality? I'm thinking no -> He would, at that point, be a complete victim to his hunger for life, and a failure at the Dunyain mission.

Not suffering eternal punishment seems to be more important than the Dunyain mission. I personally think that he's going to sabotage the army and destroy the Three Seas instead, and so gain salvation, but if push came to shove he'd have no problem doing it.

[Antonius Pius]

Does Kell have the hunger, though? Aren't all passions bred out of him? IIRC that's the reason Moengus failed as Cishaurim.

[Castel]

Does Kell have the hunger, though? Aren't all passions bred out of him? IIRC that's the reason Moengus failed as Cishaurim.

He'd still have to constantly pull himself back from the edge. Passion or no, he'd still be a slave to his need to survive. I'd don't think that he'd mind that much honestly. Dunyain have no problem being slaves if it suits them.

I'm still absorbing this chapter, but do we assume Shauriatas has funneled himself through the amputees? Is his body still alive somewhere else?

I really doubt that he still has a body. If he does it's probably all fucked up like that dragon we met last book.

[Sci-2]

He explained how the Consult sorcerer had been ancient even in Far Antique days, little more than a dread legend to Seswatha and the School of Sohonc. He described a hate-rotted soul, forever falling into hell, forever deflected by ancient and arcane magicks, caught in the sackcloth of souls too near death to resist his clutching tumble, too devoid of animating passion.

Are the Consult breeding humans then? Does Shae need to replace these men every few decades?

Lockesnow makes a good point about the circle:

Origin to ending.

What came after to what came before.

I know some people have talked about Earwa being in a timeloop, though I forget the details.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Iyisku? It is first time this name is mentioned, yes?

I still hope for some Dunyain surivors. I would be deeply disappointed if they are all dead.

Also, great writing. I really want UHC now.

[Calibandar]

Iyisku is the first time I have seen it, as far as I recall.

I agree that there is a sense of disappointment reading this, it's still hard to believe, and really quite a vast disappointment, if the Dunyain have all been annihilated. It's bad enough having to read that mighty Ishual, having stood for ages and having harbored both Dunyain and Anasurimbor royalty, has been crushed to dust. Who could have done such a thing, and who has motive? Well, we've been over that, haven't we.

The ending of WLW thus became a series of disappointments to me. But I hope for something more marvellous in TUC.

Antonius

Keeping in mind the Tekne, there is a possibility that Shauriatas might still have an actual body. But we still have not seen him sofar, whereas we have seen the Inchoroi, and Mekeritrig. Since he was just a man, it seems too unlikley for him to stil have a body, having now read this excerpt. But the possibility is still there. I think Bakker is playing him as the great evil that is located in one place, but who wields his powers through his minions, Sauron-like. Certainly this excerpt shows that he possesses tremendous willpower, constantly pulling himself back from the edge of hell for thousands of years.

Problem though is that a bodiless evil can be less interesting for the reader, so Bakker may deal with that as having him perhaps be able to take over the body of someone still able to be formidable, in the same way that he has trapped these souls to keep him alive.

[Sci-2]

So if the Consult is successful, and the world shut, Shae will simply let go and dissolve? It's interesting the Consult salvation is a harem for the Inchies, but maybe just nonexistence for humans.

[Castel]

Iyisku? It is first time this name is mentioned, yes?

I still hope for some Dunyain surivors. I would be deeply disappointed if they are all dead.

Also, great writing. I really want UHC now.

I think that they're all dead. I kind of like it that way. Writing the interactions of so many Dunyain would probably be very weird. A few of them popping up wouldn't be bad but a whole city of them? As mentioned above it's very difficult to picture any good scenario where Akka finds an intact Dunyain culture.

So if the Consult is successful, and the world shut, Shae will simply let go and dissolve? It's interesting the Consult salvation is a harem for the Inchies, but maybe just nonexistence for humans.

Did the Inchies say that they want to turn the remaining 144,000 into their harem? Because at some point I imagine that most people just want to die.

[lokisnow]

If Shae can figure it out, is there any doubt that Kellhus can? I would murder the world for this book. Commit atrocities unimaginable.

The shortest path is a circle

[Spring Bass]

I think Shae would probably just die once they shut off the world successfully. Even immortality can become a curse, something he would know just from looking at the Erratics.

[lokisnow]

Iyisku is the first time I have seen it, as far as I recall.

I agree that there is a sense of disappointment reading this, it's still hard to believe, and really quite a vast disappointment, if the Dunyain have all been annihilated. It's bad enough having to read that mighty Ishual, having stood for ages and having harbored both Dunyain and Anasurimbor royalty, has been crushed to dust. Who could have done such a thing, and who has motive? Well, we've been over that, haven't we.

Moenghus, immediately after Kell left Ishual.

Keeping in mind the Tekne, there is a possibility that Shauriatas might still have an actual body. But we still have not seen him sofar, whereas we have seen the Inchoroi, and Mekeritrig. Since he was just a man, it seems too unlikley for him to stil have a body, having now read this excerpt. But the possibility is still there. I think Bakker is playing him as the great evil that is located in one place, but who wields his powers through his minions, Sauron-like.

speaking of, a circle is rather like a ring and an eye is circular and is rather like a ring...

Certainly this excerpt shows that he possesses tremendous willpower, constantly pulling himself back from the edge of hell for thousands of years.

you could almost say he is constantly self-moving his soul back from the edge of hell for thousands of years.

[Happy Ent]

I have the impression that you all claim, at least implicitly, to have understood wtf is going on, metaphysically. Maybe somebody would dare to enlighten me, put your neck out with a half-baked, however flimsy attempt at an explanation?

Have we learned something about Shae’s methods of death-cheating? How does it all work? I don’t get it.

[Sci-2]

Well, it seems like there are a few competing and ideas. Seems like the following is what Bakker wants us to get out of the books:

1) All souls, and gods, are part of God. Sorcery is based around attuning one's psyche back to the God of which all souls are part. The only thing I can think of as evidence for this is Kellhus's fire watching power.

Also, though the subjective experience Akka-ness or Esmi-ness, etc is an illusion, its persistent enough for the subjective experience of damnation. Souls are made from the Outside, and can open a way back to it.

2) The further away you get from the phyiscal universe and thus deeper into the Outside, the more you are subject to the whims of beings which can shape reality subjectively. The most powerful of these beings seem to be the gods, though lesser beings called Ciphrang exist. It's unclear whether Ciphrang is a general catchall term for non-divine Outsiders, but that seems to be the case as there are demonic and angelic Ciphrang.

3) Damnation seems to be the default state, defined as a vulnerability to the Ciphrang that derive pleasure from tormenting souls. Salvation is only possible through a god. This seems to be the case in TTT, and much of WLW. Mim, though apparently not particularly devout, sees herself as good though Good == Saved isn't necessarily true. We know she believes Kellhus to be the Savior of Men, for whatever that's worth.

4) The Nonmen claimed that they could achieve Oblivion after dying, which would put them outside the clutches of the gods and demons. This dissolution may involving surrending the subjective experience of being someone, and thus "reunifiying" with the God of which you were always a part.

5) Shae believes the Inchie brothers have a window to damnation, some kind of mechanism that proves he, and likely all sorcerers, are damned. However, in Fallen Sun we see this up for debate. It's possible that what Shae saw was no more definitive than an NDE or drug hallucination. Regardless, Shae believes that Mechanism aka the Tekne will save his soul.

6) The Inchies, and now the Three Seas humans, believe that if the population of the world is brought down to some unknown number (signified by 144,000) the Outside will be closed off from Earwa. IIRC there is no proof this is actually true, but this event - known as the Apocalypse - drives the novels.

[sologdin]

heh such edifices built on so few grains of sand. the novels authorize precisely none of the theological stuff outside of dialogue, in-setting doctrine, or other interested presentations.