White-Luck Warrior X: X Marks the Slog

[Kalbear]

I think that's an incredibly odd way to fanwank it away; at the very least explaining it to Kellhus through Kellhus' POV (or Esmenet, since she's interested) would have made a lot of sense.

For that matter we also have the whore's shell, which has been vaguely hinted at doing something similar to the soulbinding of the wathi doll. And honestly if that's what it does - shears the higher functions of a soul away to be tortured by demons while keeping the hungers around - I can see the argument for it being an abomination.

In any case, my point is that apparently soul trapping mechanisms are fairly well-known and commonplace and are used fairly frequently in the world. We've seen the Wathi doll, the awesome gate, the Daimos stuff, the Mop and the horrible trees, potentially the whore's shell. It's been productized even! It's really odd that the actual results of what they do haven't been talked about in 5 books, especially when the subject has actually come up a few times. I'm not saying Bakker made it up; I'm saying that a good series knows how these things work and references them without explaining earlier and then explains it later so it's not a huge shock.

It bugged me when the gods became this super awesome thing of awesome and it bugs now.

[lokisnow]

I think that's an incredibly odd way to fanwank it away; at the very least explaining it to Kellhus through Kellhus' POV (or Esmenet, since she's interested) would have made a lot of sense.

it's interesting that using textual evidence to point out that Achamian was not a POV during action involving the Wathi doll is now fan-wank. Your objection was that Bakker hid things from us because Achamian would have thought about this stuff when things like the Wathi doll came up, Madness pointed out Achamian was not the POV every other time the wathi doll came up. Why so hard to admit you were wrong? At the very least admit that Bakker hid things from us by hiding Achamian's perspective at crucial times, which is true and a fair modification of your original evil-author formulation. It's also worth pointing out that Bakker has hidden many things about Kellhus from us as the series has progressed--including not having a single Kellhus perspective in TTT until Esmenet is possesed. And that Bakker has used the Mimara perspective heavily in WLW and perhaps this is for the same reason, to hide achamian's thought processes from us.

[Sci-2]

Meh, it's a minor point in the end. But there have been times this should have been explained IMO.

[Kalbear]

Your objection was that Bakker hid things from us because Achamian would have thought about this stuff when things like the Wathi doll came up

No, that was sci's objection. Him and I are not actually the same person; he's the one who has a background of black seed and giant 3-bodied yaks and ants and shit. I'm saying that in 5 books where there have been multiple observations about souled mechanics being used in actual devices around the world it's really odd that now we're just finding out why it's so offensive and so weird. Or why people aren't throwing their souls into things.

Why so hard to admit you were wrong? At the very least admit that Bakker hid things from us by hiding Achamian's perspective at crucial times, which is true and a fair modification of your original evil-author formulation.

Yes, me saying I don't like how Bakker presents (or rather elides) facts is exactly analogous to saying that he's evil.

And if you had actually read what I wrote, I mentioned that Kellhus had been given this information and we do get information about souled stuff during his chapters - and we had that perspective back in the first series. It's not just Akka that has this information, especially when he was Kellhus' teacher. But we don't get it until now. And it doesn't really serve all that much as far as it goes; we don't know what the No-god is, we don't know anything more about Shae or the Consult, we don't really know more about anything. So why hide it? Especially since it appears to be so commonplace to the point where Mimara knows facts about souled behaviors (which until she said this we didn't know either) but didn't know tons of the details.

It bugs because it feels like a cheap magician's trick. If everyone in the world knows that souls can routinely be captured in various simple ways and it's a very basic spell (which is also highly damning) and they use this in their day-to-day activities - but we don't - it's like mentioning in the 6th book that oh yeah, everyone also has machine guns and is carrying around machine guns. Shouldn't we have seen that people knew about this from folks other than Akka? Because as far as I can tell we don't even need Akka's perspective; Mimara knows about soul capturing things, Esmenet might know, Serwe might know, most of the other sorcerers definitely knew, Akka knows, Kellhus knows, Inrau likely knew, Conphas almost certainly knew, all of Kellhus' kids knew. See the problem? When almost everyone knows more than we do and we see none of it - and then it comes up as SURPRISE! - it's cheap.

Same thing happened with the Gods being not just rudimentary notions of what they are but actual beings that interact with users. In the first series we were told that the gods were real, but the impression given was that they were largely immanent. In the next series we get all sorts of shit about how the Gods interfere all the friggin time and can even change causality. That seems like a kind of a big deal to me, and the setup was fairly poor. That doesn't mean that Bakker has destroyed an orphanage; it means he didn't set something up as well as I'd have liked him to. If you don't have a problem with it (or if you're like Shryke, where you do have a problem with it but you see it everywhere so you don't care) that's fine. It personally bugs me when the reveals for a story are infobombs that are only infobombs because the author chose to tell you now instead of earlier, instead of the reveals being actual revelations of mysteries or events that happen. Bakker does a fairly good job of the latter, but I'm not that happy when data we should likely have seen is now a Big Deal.

[Castel]

No, that was sci's objection. Him and I are not actually the same person; he's the one who has a background of black seed and giant 3-bodied yaks and ants and shit.

Don't forget the pendulous phalli and the honey of unwashed anuses.

[Sci-2]

Don't forget the pendulous phalli and the honey of unwashed anuses.

Someone's been checking on my OK cupid profile. :leer:

[sologdin]

I'm not sure Chorae always work against every form of sorcery. Didn't Bakker say the Aporos has to do with paradoxes inherent to grammars? What if the wall itself is relying on Aporetic sorcery or some construction that encapsulates the grammars in for which Chorae are effective?

deconstruction stricto sensu always proceeds in the particular, but it is nevertheless generally effective.

[lokisnow]

Sorry I got that wrong, Kal.

But I don't perceive this to be an issue to the degree that you do. There's probably selection bias going on for both of us, naturally in opposite directions, and neither of us will see the same thing when looking at the same thing.

[Calibandar]

It doesn't seem to me to be all that well-known, this art of soul-trapping, and I am certainly not reading into it that the author is withholding major reveals that he should have long since informed us about.

“I dr-dreamed...” he said, hugging his arms against a shiver. “Dreamed of him.”

“Him?”

“Shauriatas.”

The surprise in her eyes was fleeting. “How’s he doing?”

She is surprised to hear that Achamian dreams of Shauriatas, indicating that it might be a rarity.

Achamian then reveals that he knows how Shauriatas has kept himself alive. So it appears that the rare dream he just had is the one that reveals to him how Shauriatas has kept himself alive through soultrapping. It is a revelation even to him.

But isn’t trapping souls an ancient art?” she asked.

“It is...” Achamian replied. He thought of the Wathi doll he once owned–and used to save himself from the Scarlet Spires when everyone, including Esmenet, had thought him dead. He had been reluctant, then, to think of the proxy that had been trapped within it. Had it suffered? Was it yet another of his multitudinous sins?

I take from this that Achamian hasn't given soultrapping and what he did to the Wathi doll an awful lot of thought. He seems surprised by how Shauriatas has kept himself alive, and then goes on to note how complex soultrapping is.

It does not appear to me that this ( soultrapping) is something which is common practice in current day Earwa at all. Rather it is an arcane and ancient part of the puzzle now being revealed to us as we learn more about the world and it's metaphysics. I'm sure there will be more revelations about the related topic of the Daimos as well, there seem to be many untapped options there, and we have seen little sofar of the use of Daimos.

[Sci-2]

deconstruction stricto sensu always proceeds in the particular, but it is nevertheless generally effective.

I'm thinking about how Godel's Theorem applies to grammars - statements that cannot be reconciled within the system they came from, but IIRC the statement can be reconciled/proved in a system that encapsulates the first one.

I guess for Chorae and the Barricade you could say the Barricade establishes its own frame. It may also be why there must be a physical, enchanted object involved. The Chorae cannot do anything to the physical object.

The other possibility is the enchanment in the nimil portion bends reality, but the latter - the actual Barricade, is an effect of the magic and not magic in itself.

[Madness]

Cheers, Mith. Good riposte.

Really wish you would all would join up at the Second Apocalypse forums. Even you, Kalbear.

[Guest]

It does not appear to me that this ( soultrapping) is something which is common practice in current day Earwa at all. Rather it is an arcane and ancient part of the puzzle now being revealed to us as we learn more about the world and it's metaphysics. I'm sure there will be more revelations about the related topic of the Daimos as well, there seem to be many untapped options there, and we have seen little sofar of the use of Daimos.

I agree with this. I think that it's implied if not explicitly stated that things like the wathi doll and Daimotic sorcery are things that very, very few people living in Earwa have any knowledge of.

[Kalbear]

Except we know this isn't true. The wathi doll was a common object used to test potential sorcerers. Mimara knows about soul binding and she doesn't know squat. The whores shell is a common item made by witches and others who aren't formally trained. Akka - who isn't remotely the best sorcerer around even at the time of the first series - knows of multiple ways to bind souls.

[Guest]

Except we know this isn't true. The wathi doll was a common object used to test potential sorcerers. Mimara knows about soul binding and she doesn't know squat. The whores shell is a common item made by witches and others who aren't formally trained. Akka - who isn't remotely the best sorcerer around even at the time of the first series - knows of multiple ways to bind souls.

How common is it though? Sorcerers are referred to as "The Few" after all.

[Kalbear]

Sure. How common are whores?

[Sci-2]

I don't think the commonality of soul capturing devices matters. The question is should the shearing of the soul have been mentioned. [iMO when Seswatha notes the watchers and watched, soul shearing should have been noted.]

Really, I think it comes down to how much you like new revelations that shift your understanding of past books. Personally, it's not to my taste, not in the way Bakker does it where world building is given piecemeal. OTOH, I know Madness likes it a lot.

It's YMMV type of thing.

[Rhom]

Sure. How common are whores?

About 50% of the population in my experience...

Oh... wait... did I say that? ;)

[Guest]

I don't come down too heavily on either side of the talk about the slow reveals of things in this book, I guess.

What was introduced in the first book was fascinating to me, and it continues to be even with all of the new reveals.

It does seem a little risky though. After book 1 you're probably thinking that it's a series about sorcery, Holy War, ninja-monks, and a Big Bad who is trying to destroy the world.

Eventually you learn about gods having a very real presence in everything, rape aliens crashing to earth in a space ship and building dragons, and plenty of other stuff.

[Sci-2]

I realize we've debated the technique of layered revelation before, so people should feel free to skip the following:

The problem of new revelations on the metaphysics is different than learning about dragons being creations of the Tekne. The former raises the question of why no one in the first three novels ever says, "The White Luck as turned against the Fanim!" or "Narindinar had been sent against Fayanal, but to no avail."

[Also, I think its arguable the Emperor should have been worried about nardinar after Maitha took power.]

It's the same with the soul being sheared. I doubt it's a retcon, but it could be read as a new thing created after readers started wondering why mages don't just trap themselves in rocks to avoid damnation.

I think Akka had to know that consciousness was sheared, because otherwise he and every other mage would want to put their soul in a Wathi object of some sort to avoid damnation. The question would have to come up in Earwa, and with all of the mage POVs across five books it's odd it isn't addressed until now.

[Guest]

Now that you mention it, if I were to complain about new reveals, I have more of a problem with the White-Luck than with the soul-trapping.

Same w/ the Judging Eye. That and White-Luck seem like huge new layers that were never (as far as I can remember) even hinted at in the first series.

Soul-trapping was, so the debate is only about whether or not the mechanics should have been more fleshed out, right?