Was Shae Tywin's spy all along?

[Pellaeon]

Why? Fear, I suspect.

Fear of seeing loathing in the eyes of the girls that work at Chataya.

Fear of being hurt again.

I think Tyrion wanted very much to believe that Shae saw him as a man who happened to be a dwarf, not primarily as a dwarf.

Part of him never believed she did, but he wanted it very much to be so. And the arrangement they made was too tempting, I guess.

Also Tyrion wanted a (fake) relationship, not just a whore to screw, he stated that he always is loyal to the women he slept with, he isn't Robert who just want to satisfy his lust. The funny thing is Tyrion is a monogamic client. He used whores to have intimacy and to be accepted loved, for him this is mor importand than sex

[noSer]

I have to disagree with any argument that treats Shae's role in Tyrion's trial as proof of her true feelings for him. If so that assumes Shae would choose to die. Shae's "street sense"is highlighted often. The text paints an image of her as pragmatic of her social value. Certainly she knew that nothing she could do held any promise of influencing the judgment, and her testimony, while making for good theater, did not affect the judgment. She could have been lying to Tyrion, no doubt, but it is just as likely that she submitted to the reality of the of situation that only had two choices 1) do as told and move up a ring on the social ladder and Tyrion becomes a head on a stick or 2) speak your heart and your head gets its very own upscale spike right next to her man's? Are we to be surprised that she isn't Shae Stark? Even Eddard (for much different reasons of course) failed to follow his resolve. Its like Aemon said what is honor compared to (insert any example). Even GRRM wouldn't have us believe Shae would choose honor/love over her own life. Her life is really the only possession she can call her own. No seasoned prostitute could love anyone enough to commit virtual suicide over a lost cause. Whoops! The ax would have been cleaner!

Making Shae the big loser in Jamies decision along with Tywin, and to a lesser extent Littlefinger. As usual Cersei (IMO the less likely character to survive the series) will do anything for attention. Even playing the victim over the two that actually died.

[Castellan]

Also Tyrion wanted a (fake) relationship, not just a whore to screw, he stated that he always is loyal to the women he slept with, he isn't Robert who just want to satisfy his lust. The funny thing is Tyrion is a monogamic client. He used whores to have intimacy and to be accepted loved, for him this is mor importand than sex

Tyrion was happy with Tysha then 'found out' she was a whore hired to please him. Tywin's sharp lesson back fired a bit, giving Tyrion an addiction to whores.

[Harle The Handsome]

I posted this on another thread, but combining what Varys said about the the tunnel to the brothel being made for another hand whose honor would not permit hiim to be seen in a brothel, plus Tyrion entering his father's bedchamber and finding Shae, I am convinced that Shae was originally intended for Tywin, but Bronn stole her first. That is why Tywin knew Tyrion had a camp follower.

[Hughthehand]

Tyrion is blind when it comes to love and sex. Shae is a seasoned prostitute. Of course she is going to ride him as high as he can take her.

Shae always struck me as a woman who would do anything for some extra gold. I expected she was spying for Tywin right from the get go, and Varys as soon as she got to King's landing.

I do not recall anything in the books about Shae that would make me think she would'nt take any gold she could get. I thought she was having sex with the singer for sure.

IMO she never once had any loyalty to Tyrion. She was Bronn's counter part, Bronn just admitted that his loyalty only went as far as the gold Tyrion would pay him, Shae was playing Tyrion the fool.

[devilrob6]

The old question as to whether Varys intended Tyrion to kill Tywin...

A few points:

It is hard to believe Varys was indifferent as to whether Tywin lived or died. A living Tywin repairs, stabilises and strengthens the Iron Throne. A dead one means Cersei drives it into the ground. We now have Varys' monologue at the end of AFfC in which he explains killing Kevan for exactly this reason.

When Tywin found out about Tyrion's escape he immediately deduced Varys was responsible and declared that he would have his head for it.

It was always going to be difficult both to get Tyrion to serve Dany and to get Dany to accept him. Tyrion killing his father definitely helped the latter at least.

I agree with most of this. Varys clearly intended them to meet. I think it was hard to predict if Tyrion would kill Tywin, but Shae was planted there to further anger Tyrion. But he was meant to go to Aegon, not to Dany.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I doubt it. I think the only reason he was with her in the end was 1 to hurt Tyrion because he knew Tyrion was fond of her and 2 because she was there. He'd never have a common whore spy on his son, not even Tyrion.

[Faceless Assassin]

No, but it was when tyrion was arrested, she came forward (probably to Varys or Cersei) saying she would lie in court for Cersei.

[lieswithwolves]

I posted this on another thread, but combining what Varys said about the the tunnel to the brothel being made for another hand whose honor would not permit hiim to be seen in a brothel, plus Tyrion entering his father's bedchamber and finding Shae, I am convinced that Shae was originally intended for Tywin, but Bronn stole her first. That is why Tywin knew Tyrion had a camp follower.

I agree. And Tywin wanted her back in the end, so he got her. I don't know if she was spying for him all along but she's always primarily interested in the gold / silks / jewels so is faithful only to those.

Shae was always a whore, and doesn't have feelings for Tyrion, despite her "I am yours and you are mine, my giant of Lannister" act. I'm thinking of the scene when Tyrion tells her he's to marry Sansa and wants or expects Shae to be at least a little upset, but she's not bothered in the least. It's just business as usual for her.

[Where Boars Glow]

Yes...always yes. Not just on Tyrion. I think she was in place to handle anything Tywin needed done and make regular reports.

[Winter's Prince]

I know for a fact Talisa is Tywin's spy. Look at her face when Robb learns the Kingslayer has escaped, I'm telling she a spy.

[Where Boars Glow]

I know for a fact Talisa is Tywin's spy. Look at her face when Robb learns the Kingslayer has escaped, I'm telling she a spy.

If you are talking Talisa from the show......I have always thought it interesting that her and Shae have an similar almost family like resemblence

[A wilding]

No, but it was when tyrion was arrested, she came forward (probably to Varys or Cersei) saying she would lie in court for Cersei.

She was locked up as a potential accessory when Tyrion was arrested, and then questioned by Cersei, So she did not exactly "come forward".

[Mjoll]

I am agreeing with the people who say that it was more likely that she is in Vary's employ than Tywin's. Tywin looks down on whore's (women in general really, )Varys is the type to not underestimate any useable chess piece that he can get his hands on. Plus, in the show, one of the first people we see her talking to in KL outside of Tyrion is Varys. Maybe they were implying something there....maybe not.

And to answer another question that keeps arising: I don't see how he could have expected any other outcome than Tyrion killing Tywin. This is freaking VARYS. You really think he didn't know what Tyrion was going to find in that bedchamber? The only thing Varys could not have forseen was Jaime coming forward with the whole truth.

[The Dragon King]

I am agreeing with the people who say that it was more likely that she is in Vary's employ than Tywin's. Tywin looks down on whore's (women in general really, )Varys is the type to not underestimate any useable chess piece that he can get his hands on. Plus, in the show, one of the first people we see her talking to in KL outside of Tyrion is Varys. Maybe they were implying something there....maybe not.

And to answer another question that keeps arising: I don't see how he could have expected any other outcome than Tyrion killing Tywin. This is freaking VARYS. You really think he didn't know what Tyrion was going to find in that bedchamber? The only thing Varys could not have forseen was Jaime coming forward with the whole truth.

Tywin has shown that he's not adverse to making use of a whore, I don't know why he'd be opposed to hiring one as a spy.

Also, people say that Tywin was a hypocrite for criticizing Tyrion for his whoring, I dont think that's true. Although Tyrion couldnt help being a dwarf he flaunted his whoring, bringing further dishonor onto the family, I think if he kept his drinking and whoring quiet Tywin wouldnt have disliked him quite as much.

[Lord Damian]

I believe that Shae was a spy for Prince Doran Martell. He confided to Arrianne that he and his later brother, the Red Viper, had been working for many years to bring down the Lannisters. In order to do that, you need intelligence. Whores make some of the best spies possible. Especially ones that follow soldiers camps. The tip off is that she went from Tyrion to Tywin once Tyrion was gone for good, or so she thought. From one Lannister hand to the other. Also, Tywin forbidding Tyrion to take her to Kings Landing tells me that Tywin had already taken notice of her before Bronn "discovered her" and brought her to Tyrion. Far too convenient.

[King's Ruin]

Here's a good point: how did Tywin know who Shae was in the first place, when he recruited her to give evidence against Tyrion? Either Varys made the introduction or Tywin already knew her, but judging from Cersei's error in judgement at Chatayas, it appears she was fairly well hidden (if there is such a thing as being well hidden in King's Landing). Either way, it's clear she struck up a relationship with Tywin of one form or another BEFORE the trial (rather than just being dragged at that precise moment to the court, with no clue what was going on - she had obviously been briefed on what to say), so who's to say they don't go way back? Obviously it was not Cersei who made the introduction, or any of the Lannister sub-ordinates in King's Landing. As another user quite rightly pointed out, Bronn stole her from some noble, prompting that noble to complain and presumeably that is how Tywin found out about her (hence his strict warning to Tyrion NOT to bring her to court). And again, as another user quite rightly pointed out, telling his son NOT to do something is precisely the best way of getting him to do it. Tywin is not a fool and he knows Tyrion would have in all likelihood done the opposite of whatever he said, when concerning women. Look at Prospero in The Tempest!

I think she has been feeding Varys, Tywin, Sansa and even the singer who wrote ...hands of gold are always cold... whatever they wanted to hear.

[King's Ruin]

Tywin has shown that he's not adverse to making use of a whore, I don't know why he'd be opposed to hiring one as a spy.

Also, people say that Tywin was a hypocrite for criticizing Tyrion for his whoring, I dont think that's true. Although Tyrion couldnt help being a dwarf he flaunted his whoring, bringing further dishonor onto the family, I think if he kept his drinking and whoring quiet Tywin wouldnt have disliked him quite as much.

Great theory except Tywin actually paid an entire sqaud of soldiers to bang her 'in the courtyard for all to see' so probably not. Let alone the fact Tysha wasn't even a prostitute, just a local girl 'too low born' for the Lannisters. However, that is not to say I don't agree Tyrion was too flagrant with his whoring and it didn't help their relationship one little bit. But Tywin IS a big fat hypocrite because the impression he gives is that he is 'too good for that sort of thing' when in fact he is worse than Tyrion: he gang raped an innocent girl, has sex with prostitutes himself (behind closed doors) and even tried to kill his own son, who was innocent anyway. Oh yeah and he's a baby killer too. Tywin is not 'too good' for anything, he is just someone who cares more about the way he is seen than the way he really is and if those two things contradict each other then bingo you have a hypocrite.

[First of My Name]

Tywin and Shae were secret lovers for years. That was why Tywin didn't want to remarry, that was Shae betrayed Tyrion, and that was why Shae was in Tywin's bed. Tywin forbid Tyrion from taking her to KL, because he knew that Tyrion would, and Shae would be safer in the capital than in Tywin's war. All the while she could spy on Tyrion. It all adds up! :)

[ambi76]

I always thought so, yes. From the very moment Tywin tells Tyrion to leave her be. And I will laugh my ass off when/if they make this explicit on the show.