Heresy 21

[Efilnikufesin]

But, where does that leave bronze and iron? They bth can be protective or destructive depending n whether it's armour or weapon yu make...

In some of the celtic folklore, iron was used as a deterent to spirits(magic?,) such as they are used in the crypts of Winterfell. Bronze, silver and I think the third is copper, all enhance or attract spirits(magic?.) Not sure if I am stating it right, but I think that is the gist of it.

[Efilnikufesin]

With all this talk of the opposing forces of ice and fire/water earth, have also noticed something with the sidhe that seems to be related. Hate to quote wiki, but I couldn't find the original site that I had read it in more clearly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann#The_Four_Treasures

[7V3N]

Yes, I think warging may have something to do with the soul. When Varamyr dies he starts to sort of merge with nature, but ultimately his spirit enters the wolf since he's a skinchanger. What happens to the soul of someone who's not a skinchanger?

I've wondered if a wight's soul is trapped inside their body after they die which could be why they have some type of memory of their past. Instead of the Others warging the wights, as has been suggested, they simply bind their soul. Can a body function without a soul? When Varamyr dies and is in his wolf he mentions how Thistle sees him, but there's no mention of seeing his own body as a wight.

Binding an soul to a "dead" body could lead to corruption...Wights, Undead Cat, Robert Strong, etc. Can't think of any other examples...Patchface, Coldhands? Coldhands doesn't seem to be corrupted as the others though, so who knows.

Yupp, I brought this up recently. I haven't looked into much evidence, but most can be borrowed from the "WW are manifested spirits" theory, since my idea is just that WW are that, but the souls come from those pushed out of their body by wargs. This fits with Varamyr's "drift" in the prologue, as well as ties warging, Starks in Winterfell, "Southron ambitions", ... .

[Lummel]

In some of the celtic folklore, iron was used as a deterent to spirits(magic?,) such as they are used in the crypts of Winterfell. Bronze, silver and I think the third is copper, all enhance or attract spirits(magic?.) Not sure if I am stating it right, but I think that is the gist of it.

Eira found a Scandinavian parallel too for the power of iron.

With all this talk of the opposing forces of ice and fire/water earth, have also noticed something with the sidhe that seems to be related. Hate to quote wiki, but I couldn't find the original site that I had read it in more clearly.

http://en.wikipedia...._Four_Treasures

The cauldron hangs about in the back of my mind. There's a cauldron of rebirth in the Mabinogion, the welsh go over to Ireland and as you do in legends they have a big battle with the Irish. Things look bad for the Welsh though because the Irish have this cauldron of rebirth. Once their men are killed they are dropped in the cauldron and pop out ready to fight again. The welsh are being overwhelmed by these 'differently alive' warriors so they have to destroy the cauldron to save themselves - this is the same story in which Bran has his head buried to watch out and guard his people while ravens fly to him to bring him news. In wonder if one of the tasks of the last hero in ASOIAF will be to stop the powers of Ice and Fire from raising the dead to force them to fight again?

[Efilnikufesin]

Eira found a Scandinavian parallel too for the power of iron.

The cauldron hangs about in the back of my mind. There's a cauldron of rebirth in the Mabinogion, the welsh go over to Ireland and as you do in legends they have a big battle with the Irish. Things look bad for the Welsh though because the Irish have this cauldron of rebirth. Once their men are killed they are dropped in the cauldron and pop out ready to fight again. The welsh are being overwhelmed by these 'differently alive' warriors so they have to destroy the cauldron to save themselves - this is the same story in which Bran has his head buried to watch out and guard his people while ravens fly to him to bring him news. In wonder if one of the tasks of the last hero in ASOIAF will be to stop the powers of Ice and Fire from raising the dead to force them to fight again?

Edit: have to check out this story, another one I haven't read.

Plus according to the wiki (and I think this is the treasure of the North.)

Tales depict the Dagda as a figure of immense power, armed with a magic club and associated with a cauldron. The club was supposed to be able to kill nine men with one blow; but with the handle he could return the slain to life.

But it is wiki.

[Efilnikufesin]

Hmm, reading wiki of all things:

Despite his great power and prestige, the Dagda is sometimes depicted as oafish and crude, even comical, wearing a short, rough tunic that barely covers his rump, dragging his great penis on the ground.^[1] Such features are thought to be the additions of Christian redactors for comedic purposes. Tellingly, the Middle Irish Coir Anmann (The Fitness of Names) paints a less clownish picture: "He was a beautiful god of the heathens, for the Tuatha Dé Danann worshipped him: for he was an earth-god to them because of the greatness of his (magical) power."

Especially from the first sentence, does that sound like anyone we know?

[Lummel]

Tormund!

[7V3N]

Hmm, reading wiki of all things:

Especially from the first sentence, does that sound like anyone we know?

HAR!!

ETA: Lummel beat me to it :(

[Efilnikufesin]

Tormund!

Yes! Now this has me thinking again. Damn, have too many things I am trying to put together already!

Edit: To add, what does it mean now that we let Tormund freely on to the south side of the Wall?

[Lummel]

erm...that you need to cover your daughter's eyes if you see him start to hitch his tunic up?

[nanother]

Yes, I think warging may have something to do with the soul. When Varamyr dies he starts to sort of merge with nature, but ultimately his spirit enters the wolf since he's a skinchanger. What happens to the soul of someone who's not a skinchanger?

My guess would be: it does merge with nature, unless something goes wrong. There are references to this in the same Varamyr chapter (the wildlings seem to believe that's what happens) and Meera (one of the last Bran chapters in ADWD)

I've wondered if a wight's soul is trapped inside their body after they die which could be why they have some type of memory of their past. Instead of the Others warging the wights, as has been suggested, they simply bind their soul. Can a body function without a soul? When Varamyr dies and is in his wolf he mentions how Thistle sees him, but there's no mention of seeing his own body as a wight.

Yes, I was wondering about that (lack of Varamyr wight). You might be onto something with his lack of soul*. I think there are two separate issues with wights - one is, as you say, binding the spirit to a physically disfunctional body, which is also an issue with Uns and possibly Tree-BR and Mel, and the other is potentially controlling it. Although, it seems that the wights' body is some degrees more dead than the Uns' - I don't recall blackened hands and dried blood** linked to the Uns, they seem kind of normal in outward appearance...not sure what to make of that.

I happen to think that the Thistle incident is one of the cases when warging/whatever type of control is suggested: I don't think seeing Varamyr in the wolf is something she would have been capable of while still alive, so either she gained this ability due to being dead (which is possible, of course), or someone else was looking through her eyes. And we do know that skinchangers have a way of detecting each other.

edit:

* I mean lack of easily hijackable soul

** do all wights get the dried blood syndrome?

[Efilnikufesin]

Have to quote some of this, not sure what it boils down too (yes wiki again)

A folktale told to John O'Donovan by Shane O'Dugan of Tory Island in 1835 recounts the birth of a grandson of Balor who grows up to kill his grandfather. The grandson is unnamed, his father is called Mac Cinnfhaelaidh and the manner of his killing of Balor is different, but it has been taken as a version of the birth of Lugh, and was adapted as such by Lady Gregory. In this tale, Balor hears a druid's prophecy that he will be killed by his own grandson. To prevent this he imprisons his only daughter in the Tór Mór (great tower) of Tory Island, cared for by twelve women, who are to prevent her ever meeting or even learning of the existence of men. On the mainland, Mac Cinnfhaelaidh owns a magic cow who gives such abundant milk that everyone, including Balor, wants to possess her. While the cow is in the care of Mac Cinnfhaelaidh's brother Mac Samthainn, Balor appears in the form of a little red-haired boy and tricks him into giving him the cow. Looking for revenge, Mac Cinnfhaelaidh calls on a leanan sídhe (fairy woman) called Biróg, who transports him by magic to the top of Balor's tower, where he seduces Eithne. In time she gives birth to triplets, which Balor gathers up in a sheet and sends to be drowned in a whirlpool. The messenger drowns two of the babies, but unwittingly drops one child into the harbour, where he is rescued by Biróg. She takes him to his father, who gives him to his brother, Gavida the smith, in fosterage.^[3]

There may be further triplism associated with his birth. His father in the folktale is one of a triad of brothers, Mac Cinnfhaelaidh, Gavida and Mac Samthainn, and his father in the medieval texts, Cian, is often mentioned together with his brothers Cú and Cethen.^[4] Two characters called Lugaid, a popular medieval Irish name thought to derive from Lugh, have three fathers: Lugaid Riab nDerg (Lugaid of the Red Stripes) was the son of the three Findemna or fair triplets,^[5] and Lugaid mac Con Roí was also known as mac Trí Con, "son of three hounds".^[6] In Ireland's other great "sequestered maiden" story, the tragedy of Deirdre, the king's intended is carried off by three brothers, who are hunters with hounds.^[7] The canine imagery continues with Cian's brother Cú ("hound"), another Lugaid, Lugaid Mac Con (son of a hound), and Lugh's son Cúchulainn ("Culann's Hound").^[8] A fourth Lugaid was Lugaid Loígde, a legendary King of Tara and ancestor of (or inspiration for) Lugaid Mac Con

Little bit of Bael, Baelor the Blessed, Clegane, maybe Lyanna and Rheagar/Elia.

[nenya~]

Yes, I was wondering about that (lack of Varamyr wight). You might be onto something with his lack of soul*. I think there are two separate issues with wights - one is, as you say, binding the spirit to a physically disfunctional body, which is also an issue with Uns and possibly Tree-BR and Mel, and the other is potentially controlling it. Although, it seems that the wights' body is some degrees more dead than the Uns' - I don't recall blackened hands and dried blood** linked to the Uns, they seem kind of normal in outward appearance...not sure what to make of that.

I happen to think that the Thistle incident is one of the cases when warging/whatever type of control is suggested: I don't think seeing Varamyr in the wolf is something she would have been capable of while still alive, so either she gained this ability due to being dead (which is possible, of course), or someone else was looking through her eyes. And we do know that skinchangers have a way of detecting each other.

edit:

* I mean lack of easily hijackable soul

** do all wights get the dried blood syndrome?

I can't recall if all wights have black hands. I'll have to look it up later.

But as for the "dried blood syndrome"...I think the blood is frozen rather than dried...the Others use ice magic while the other Undeads are raised through fire magic?

[Efilnikufesin]

I can't recall if all wights have black hands. I'll have to look it up later.

But as for the "dried blood syndrome"...I think the blood is frozen rather than dried...the Others use ice magic while the other Undeads are raised through fire magic?

Yes, the wights do have black hands that we have seen

[Tyryan Lannister]

I can't recall if all wights have black hands. I'll have to look it up later.

But as for the "dried blood syndrome"...I think the blood is frozen rather than dried...the Others use ice magic while the other Undeads are raised through fire magic?

This has me thinking, what about Robert Strong? How exactly was he raised? Yes, we can assume that it was through some sort of fire magic, especially with we take Qyburn's tales of his time at the Citadel and the semi-reverence/lack of anger that he seems to hold for Marwyn as evidence of Qyburn having been a student of his. But what if it isn't fire magic? I doubt it's ice magic he's using, but if not Fire nor Ice, then what? Blood magic maybe? Really hope we get a Cersei or Jaime (or even just Prologue or Epilogue) POV showing Qyburn at work.

EDIT: Spelling

[Efilnikufesin]

Hmm, I wonder at times if Mance and Tormund are on the same page? It's just one quote, but I notice it is a pattern.

“So we know,” said Mance. “We know how few you were, when you stopped the turtle.

We know how many came from Eastwatch. We know how your supplies have dwindled.

Pitch, oil, arrows, spears. Even your stair is gone, and that cage can only lift so many. We

know. And now you know we know.” He opened the flap of the tent. “Come inside. The

rest of you, wait here.”

“What, even me?” said Tormund.

“Particularly you. Always.”

Edit: Forgot to add my point. Everytime Mance meets with Jon, he always sends Tormund away.

[nanother]

I can't recall if all wights have black hands. I'll have to look it up later.

But as for the "dried blood syndrome"...I think the blood is frozen rather than dried...the Others use ice magic while the other Undeads are raised through fire magic?

By dried blood, I mean that the two rangers' blood was all black and powdery - they didn't seem like freshly frozen corpses, they seemed like they'd been dead for ages. My first thought was that they went through some insta-mummification process somehow (a bit like Dany's child, maybe? although there was something more going on with that one), ergo dried, but of course I might be wrong. I didn't look into the possibility in detail. I think drying the body also might leave it inflexible/brittle which wights are not, so that's one thing against it. But it's hard to know when magic is involved...

[Efilnikufesin]

So what about these Summer Spirits?

You heretics can always be accused of being a mutual glory club,but if you continue to ignore questions such as the above,then I'm more inclined to believe it.

Ok, guess I am becoming a part of the "Mutual Glory Club." But ????? Has anyone spoke of summer spirits?

Edit: Not even sure what you are asking for.

[nanother]

I vaguely recall someone(s) in the books talking about 'spirit summer', but don't remember any details...I think Jon (eta and I think in AGOT) and maybe someone else...

@redriver, I don't think it's reasonable to expect us to discuss these 'summer spirits', unless you do the basic courtesy of explaining where they come up in the books and why/how you think they're important...

[Efilnikufesin]

I vaguely recall someone(s) in the books talking about 'spirit summer', but don't remember any details...I think Jon (eta and I think in AGOT) and maybe someone else...

@redriver, I don't think it's reasonable to expect us to discuss these 'summer spirits', unless you do the basic courtesy of explaining where they come up in the books and why/how you think they're important...

The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving

up its ghosts at last. After this the cold would come, they warned, and a long summer

always meant a long winter. This summer had lasted ten years. Jon had been a babe in

arms when it began.

All I found about it so far. It's when they find Othor and Jafer.