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Heresy 21


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Ok gang I went back in Heresy 20 and found this post from redriver so maybe this is what we should discuss. I remember I was looking through SSM and had just seen one on spirit summers so I'll check for that.

Something caught my eye in AGOT which might tie in with Sidhe/Faerie lore.Apologies if it's been discussed before.

It's from a Jon POV.-"It was warm.Too warm.The Wall was weeping copiously......The old men called this weather spirit summer,and said it meant the season was giving up it's ghosts at last.After this,the cold would come,they warned,and a long summer always meant a long winter"

This line goes with the current discussion too..."the season was giving up it's ghosts at last" ... is that a direct quote from one of the books?

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As Elaena says redriver posted the question with that book quote in the last thread, close to the end of it.

redriver, most of us have made theories or posted stuff that went completely or more or less ignored, except perhaps Black crow. I know I have, so don't feel excluded.

Regarding the Summer spirits, it could literally be the spirits of the dead, that are giving up and crossing over, or becoming winter spirits.

It could also be more mundane, there are similar sayings in real world as far as I know. It describes a real world phenomenon, there is often a few days of really warm weather, unusually so for the season, in autumn where I live, and then the cold comes for real.

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Here is an interesting SSM on the effects of winter and this is the part they talk about the spirit summer but it seems pretty standard to me...

Are there some areas without snow, which are suitable for agriculture, or are there significant temperature changes inside the "bigger seasons"? To grow a harvest, at least a couple of months' time of warm temperature (15-20 degrees by Celsius) is needed. Is it available in the North?

Sometimes. It is not something that can be relied on, given the random nature of the seasons, but there are "false springs" and "spirit summers." The maesters try and monitor temperature grand closely, to advise on when to plant and when to harvest and how much food to store.

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Well, I know that for me personally, whenever it's been really hot and humid for a good amount of time (week +) and then a big storm system comes in, when the temp and humidity finally drop, it feels like a big heavy mist (which could be described as almost a "heat spirit") is lifted from my body; could just be a description of this type of thing.

It also could be something about what the Wall is doing. We know that on the hotter, extremely clear sky type of days, the ice on the outer edges of the Wall melts, making the Wall "weep." If "Spirit Summer" is supposed to be analogous to "Indian Summer," then it could be that the temperature starts to cool down, which causes the semi-melted ice on the outside of the Wall to start to freeze again; the "Spirit Summer" hits, causing the temperatures to suddenly rise back into summer levels, which causes a quick remelting of the Wall, but since there wouldn't have been much time for moisture to accumulate in the air, the nights get as cold as they would normally be in the autumn, so the melted ice that has begun to evaporate condenses in the air, making there be a night/morning fog, which, in our world at least, has 'ghostly" connections in folklore.

Basically, it's probably just a way of explaining an abnormality in weather, especially considering that Martin mentions it in the same sentence as "false springs," which we know to be abnormalities in weather.

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Oh OK, I missed that quote in the last thread, sorry. It seems ominous that it's called 'spirit' summer, but can't see at the moment where it might fit in the bigger picture. With all this talk about spirits...and 'old men' calling it like that might imply it's one of those obscure bits of oral tradition that carry some old and important knowledge :dunno:

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By dried blood, I mean that the two rangers' blood was all black and powdery - they didn't seem like freshly frozen corpses, they seemed like they'd been dead for ages. My first thought was that they went through some insta-mummification process somehow (a bit like Dany's child, maybe? although there was something more going on with that one), ergo dried, but of course I might be wrong. I didn't look into the possibility in detail. I think drying the body also might leave it inflexible/brittle which wights are not, so that's one thing against it. But it's hard to know when magic is involved...

Ah, ok. Didn't remember that bit, but I just looked up the part where Coldhands talks about his hands...

“Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man’s blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals.” His voice rattled in his throat, as thin and gaunt as he was. “His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk.”

I think I got the frozen blood thing from Thistle's description. "Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood."

I'm not sure why the undeaders' bodies wouldn't do the same thing if they are walking corpses like wights. Maybe the difference between wights and the undeads is the way their bodies are sustained? Wights are sustained by the cold. Remember the wight's hand that was brought to King's Landing ended up decaying. Maybe the way the undeaders are sustustained is by fire which doesn't let the blood to solidify. Or something.

Btw, this thread moves too fast. :devil: lol

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The Baroness herself is watching out for us, I feel privileged! :)

Bayou Bengal (cool name) It is a bit odd that the undead are different from the wights that way, I had always thought it had to do with the cold since frostbite is caused by the bloodvessles freezing in the extremities. I don't know if that applies here though, since all of the wights did not die from cold, I don't know enough about it really, but perhaps it happens even after death in extreme cold?

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Hmm I'm prbably reading way too much into details, but this:

“Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man’s blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals.”
can only happen if the body stays upright for some time after it dies...which wights tend to do. But it does invalidate my insta-mummifiction idea, because obviously 1) this takes time 2) I guess the congealing of blood is a suitable explanation for the black and dust-like blood. So I guess it's still basically mummification, but a slow one, due to natural decomposition methods being magically inhibited. Not that I actually know anything substantial about what is or isn't realistic for dead bodies so I might be talking total rubbish here :leaving:

Not sure about the Uns, too tired to look them up now.

I agree these threads move way too fast...

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Hmm I'm prbably reading way too much into details, but this: can only happen if the body stays upright for some time after it dies...which wights tend to do. But it does invalidate my insta-mummifiction idea, because obviously 1) this takes time 2) I guess the congealing of blood is a suitable explanation for the black and dust-like blood. So I guess it's still basically mummification, but a slow one, due to natural decomposition methods being magically inhibited. Not that I actually know anything substantial about what is or isn't realistic for dead bodies so I might be talking total rubbish here :leaving:

Not sure about the Uns, too tired to look them up now.

I agree these threads move way too fast...

For the Uns, it could be that the Fire magics cause both the soul and the BODY to reanimate in a fashion. We know that, to at least a small extent, the minds and free will of the Uns is reinstated after resurrection; maybe some form of reanimated heart beat/blood flow comes with it (I know it's improbable do to the fact that Beric and UnCat don't gush blood). Or it could be that, because of the fact that it is Fire/heat based and Fire consumes, that the act of reigniting the flame of life causes the blood to evaporate or something like that.

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This has me thinking, what about Robert Strong? How exactly was he raised? Yes, we can assume that it was through some sort of fire magic, especially with we take Qyburn's tales of his time at the Citadel and the semi-reverence/lack of anger that he seems to hold for Marwyn as evidence of Qyburn having been a student of his. But what if it isn't fire magic? I doubt it's ice magic he's using, but if not Fire nor Ice, then what? Blood magic maybe? Really hope we get a Cersei or Jaime (or even just Prologue or Epilogue) POV showing Qyburn at work.

EDIT: Spelling

On bolded above...

I have long considered Blood magic to be it's own separate category (i.e. Cersei's phophesies from the Maegi, Mirri Maz Dur, and perhaps Shierra Seastar? No doubt several other examples exist as well) .... Blood, Fire, Ice, Earth all being species under the same genus of magical powers.

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GRRM's world isn't really that magical in the grand scheme of things. It's the least magical world I've encountered in fantasy (even accounting for the fact that there is a magical lull during ASOIAF), which is one of the reasons why I find it so appealing.

No matter how magical the world, the people of it will still create stories that exagerate the status quo. Got no dragons, you make up stories with dragons. Already have dragons, you make up stories about bigger ones, nastier ones, etc. Some of the stories you list probably have a grain of truth in them. Some of those grains may have had magical elements. But given the framework that GRRM has created, I see no evidence for cross-species/cross-being/cross-entity breeding. Everything we have points to humans in GRRM's world breeding the same way as they do in our world, with the same restrictions and practicalities. In fact the fundamental plot line of AGoT was built around genetics.

This is only my opinion. And I'm not saying there's no room to be wrong, but I think the odds of there ever having been a 'wind goddess' are low and the odds of a human copulating with one are miniscule. Ditto for the mermaid, giant and CotF (the copulating part, not the existence part). Not zero, I admit. But that doesn't matter because the point that was originally being made by Free Northman was simply that an awful lot of stuff is being built on a very flimsy foundation. Yes, the stories cannot be conclusively refuted, nor should they be outright dismissed, but I'm not convinced it's worth basing layer upon layer of theory on.

Just to take from the old thread and continue properly with the new...

I'm not sure how much of what we talk about is a house of cards reliant on Stark's having the blood of the others flowing through their veins, but I'm not building massive theorums reliant on it myself. But I do reserve much moreso the possibility of a closer relationship between the Starks of Old and the White Walkers than history is currently reflective of. Whether just some power hungry stark brother, or deeper culture or what have you, that is in the cards without a great stretch of logic. Possibly even as simple as a Stark Lord Commander that was entranced by a white walker female instead of actually copulating with her.

I know there's some running without the baton here every now and then, but I don't think it's a fundamental foundation to all that much, just some parallels and world building more than anything else.

So, for the record, I'm skeptical that Jon Snow has the blood of the White Walkers in his veins. I do reserve the possibility of some common magics between them though.

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Hmm I'm prbably reading way too much into details, but this: can only happen if the body stays upright for some time after it dies...which wights tend to do. But it does invalidate my insta-mummifiction idea, because obviously 1) this takes time 2) I guess the congealing of blood is a suitable explanation for the black and dust-like blood. So I guess it's still basically mummification, but a slow one, due to natural decomposition methods being magically inhibited. Not that I actually know anything substantial about what is or isn't realistic for dead bodies so I might be talking total rubbish here :leaving:

Not sure about the Uns, too tired to look them up now.

I agree these threads move way too fast...

What if water is the thing that holds the soul? Coldhands' soul still resides within him, because his blood (i.e. water) is still frozen within him. Jafer and Othor have remnants of themselves yet because their marrow/bones still have some traces of blood/water within them even after death (the bones remember). But the water which (maybe) contained the most part of their spirits has leaked out and dissipated, leaving room for the white walkers to get inside. Does this make any kind of sense? Or maybe it's enough that the body is pierced - remember the White Walkers stabbing Waymar Royce full of holes? Jafer's neck is slashed, and Othor has puncture wounds in his "breast and groin and throat". And Thistle tears out her own eyes. Maybe the White Walkers need a way in?* Maybe Coldhands' blood was never spilled, and he hides the mark of a noose around his neck?

All this talk of ghostly mists and fog -- the malevolent fog in the Narrows that was supposedly the spirits of vengeful dragonlords, the angry northern ghosts in the mists around Moat Cailin, all that spooky water vapor billowing about during the Winterfell wedding (thank you Efilnikufesin!), and so forth -- it's appearing that water might be the stuff that spirits ride in. Which makes a blood sacrifice at the roots of a weirwood make a little more sense, because it's the water in the blood which carries the spirit of the sacrificial lamb into the ground and into the roots of the tree. Also, if disembodied spirit is carried by water, and is perhaps trapped in frozen water, what does that make the Wall? And what about that strange milkiness in the Milkwater River? More disembodied souls?

For some reason, I keep coming back to the idea of displacement. Some blood goes out to make room for the cold mist, or some blood leaks out to make room for fire (with Mel is leaks out from between her thighs, with Catelyn and Beric the blood has exited in a more, ahem, traditional way). Why Beric and UnCat seem to be more "with it" than the wights, I don't know. Perhaps fire reanimates in a different way than cold, as someone upthread opined?

Displacement seems to be a major theme. Lots of untethered entities floating around, looking for a way to win back what was lost.

To quote Syrio: "All men are made of water, do you know this? When you pierce them, the water leaks out and they die."

ETA: *If the White Walkers can kill with just the cold, why do they even bother with those fancy swords? Poke a hole, spill some blood, make some room, let me in? :dunno:

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What if water is the thing that holds the soul? Coldhands' soul still resides within him, because his blood (i.e. water) is still frozen within him. Jafer and Othor have remnants of themselves yet because their marrow/bones still have some traces of blood/water within them even after death (the bones remember). But the water which (maybe) contained the most part of their spirits has leaked out and dissipated, leaving room for the white walkers to get inside. Does this make any kind of sense? Or maybe it's enough that the body is pierced - remember the White Walkers stabbing Waymar Royce full of holes? Jafer's neck is slashed, and Othor has puncture wounds in his "breast and groin and throat". And Thistle tears out her own eyes. Maybe the White Walkers need a way in?* Maybe Coldhands' blood was never spilled, and he hides the mark of a noose around his neck?

All this talk of ghostly mists and fog -- the malevolent fog in the Narrows that was supposedly the spirits of vengeful dragonlords, the angry northern ghosts in the mists around Moat Cailin, all that spooky water vapor billowing about during the Winterfell wedding (thank you Efilnikufesin!), and so forth -- it's appearing that water might be the stuff that spirits ride in. Which makes a blood sacrifice at the roots of a weirwood make a little more sense, because it's the water in the blood which carries the spirit of the sacrificial lamb into the ground and into the roots of the tree. Also, if disembodied spirit is carried by water, and is perhaps trapped in frozen water, what does that make the Wall? And what about that strange milkiness in the Milkwater River? More disembodied souls?

For some reason, I keep coming back to the idea of displacement. Some blood goes out to make room for the cold mist, or some blood leaks out to make room for fire (with Mel is leaks out from between her thighs, with Catelyn and Beric the blood has exited in a more, ahem, traditional way). Why Beric and UnCat seem to be more "with it" than the wights, I don't know. Perhaps fire reanimates in a different way than cold, as someone upthread opined?

Displacement seems to be a major theme. Lots of untethered entities floating around, looking for a way to win back what was lost.

To quote Syrio: "All men are made of water, do you know this? When you pierce them, the water leaks out and they die."

ETA: *If the White Walkers can kill with just the cold, why do they even bother with those fancy swords? Poke a hole, spill some blood, make some room, let me in? :dunno:

Maybe Mel's blood leaks out in the more traditional way... Sorry you set that up.

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Ah, ok. Didn't remember that bit, but I just looked up the part where Coldhands talks about his hands...

I think I got the frozen blood thing from Thistle's description. "Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood."

I'm not sure why the undeaders' bodies wouldn't do the same thing if they are walking corpses like wights. Maybe the difference between wights and the undeads is the way their bodies are sustained? Wights are sustained by the cold. Remember the wight's hand that was brought to King's Landing ended up decaying. Maybe the way the undeaders are sustustained is by fire which doesn't let the blood to solidify. Or something.

Btw, this thread moves too fast. :devil: lol

The undeads are re-lifed, so their body works just as it did before with perhaps a little less of their spirit or soul remaining each time. The wrights are just re-animated bodies. Coldhands is different from normal wrights, His spirit seems to inhabit a body. The bodies of the wrights seem to be vehicles for the spirits of whatever controls them. They are just needed to provide physicality to the driving force behind them. So they dont function as normal bodies they are still dead. e.g the garrion the WW Sam killed had chunks missing from it, it could not 'live' missing vital organs. In the case of Uncat she just had scars and wounds which were superficial so had a fully functioning body as IIRC she drowned.

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I like the discussion of different types of magic. Two things I would add to the dialogue

1. Remember that the Ironborn consider the Storm God to be the opposite/nemesis of the Drowned God. So it may not be earth that opposes water but air/lightning/storms. Will the Baratheons have some prophetic show down with the Ironborn?

2 I wouldn't try to work out a comprehensive list of magical types and qualities

"Some of your hard-core readers, myself included, have spent a lot of time speculating about how many different kinds of magic there are in your world. Or is it all the manifestation of the same mysterious supernatural forces?

That's something I like to reveal little by little.

I can tell you generally that when treating with magic in fantasy, you have to keep it magical. Many fantasy writers work out these detailed systems, and rules, and I think that's a mistake.

For magic to be effective in a literary sense, it has to be unknowable and strange and dangerous, with forces that can't be predicted or controlled. That makes it, I think, much more interesting and evocative. It functions as a symbol or metaphor of all the forces in the universe we don't understand and maybe never will."

http://www.vulture.c...his_favori.html

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From that same interview I also liked this:

Interviewer: Some of the developments in A Dance With Dragons open the possibility that some characters may be able to influence events that have already happened. Are you leaving open the possibility that the past might be malleable?

GRRM: **Long pause.** It's not something I care to give away. I will say that the past and the present and the future are all kind of one continuum, and there are different ways of looking at it. The past is always with us.

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The undeads are re-lifed, so their body works just as it did before with perhaps a little less of their spirit or soul remaining each time. The wrights are just re-animated bodies. Coldhands is different from normal wrights, His spirit seems to inhabit a body. The bodies of the wrights seem to be vehicles for the spirits of whatever controls them. They are just needed to provide physicality to the driving force behind them. So they dont function as normal bodies they are still dead. e.g the garrion the WW Sam killed had chunks missing from it, it could not 'live' missing vital organs. In the case of Uncat she just had scars and wounds which were superficial so had a fully functioning body as IIRC she drowned.

It's true that although Lord Beric has quite an impressive list of injuries, it's possible that none of those damages a vital organ. Although, he seems to have suffered some serious brain damage:

“Dondarrion’s dead,” said Strongboar. “The Mountain drove a knife through his eye, we have men with us who saw it.”

In any case, he certainly does bleed:

Unsmiling, Lord Beric laid the edge of his longsword against the palm of his left hand, and drew it slowly down. Blood ran dark from the gash he made, and washed over the steel.

And then the sword took fire.

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