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Heresy 21


Eyron

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I think the red priest ressurection ability is thematically parallel but not identical to the white walkers ability to reanimate the whites.

Any heretics want to make some heretical speculation as to why one half of the doors of the temple of the faceless ones is made of weirwood? or is it just because weirwoods are cool?

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don't know. It always just suggested to me that the faceless men see the world in a very simple black and white way. All men must serve. All men must die. Most of us would say 'serve to what end'? There a difference for most of us in serving a bad cause or a good one, but not for the faceless men, the contract is everything.

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My guess would be: it does merge with nature, unless something goes wrong. There are references to this in the same Varamyr chapter (the wildlings seem to believe that's what happens) and Meera (one of the last Bran chapters in ADWD)

Yes, I was wondering about that (lack of Varamyr wight). You might be onto something with his lack of soul*. I think there are two separate issues with wights - one is, as you say, binding the spirit to a physically disfunctional body, which is also an issue with Uns and possibly Tree-BR and Mel, and the other is potentially controlling it. Although, it seems that the wights' body is some degrees more dead than the Uns' - I don't recall blackened hands and dried blood** linked to the Uns, they seem kind of normal in outward appearance...not sure what to make of that.

I happen to think that the Thistle incident is one of the cases when warging/whatever type of control is suggested: I don't think seeing Varamyr in the wolf is something she would have been capable of while still alive, so either she gained this ability due to being dead (which is possible, of course), or someone else was looking through her eyes. And we do know that skinchangers have a way of detecting each other.

edit:

* I mean lack of easily hijackable soul

** do all wights get the dried blood syndrome?

Hmm ... very nice guys ... made me re-read and re-think (again) the Thistle story, and why she can see Varamyr after his true death, when whatever was left of him resided in One Eye.

Made me think about the wightified animals we have seen.

There are very few of them. One bear, maybe two if it wasn't the same bear at the Fist and later at the cave of the Children.

Some horses (I think there were indeed more of them).

Some dead ravens outside the cave of the Children and probably before surrounding Coldhands.

So, if everything that dies beyond the Wall rises as a wight, because of the white mist that preserves/the Others, why are there no wightified squirrels, rabbits mice, fleas or lice?

Could it be that only two kinds of 'species' can be wightified: humans and animals who have the lost soul of a dead skinchanger in them?

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It's true that although Lord Beric has quite an impressive list of injuries, it's possible that none of those damages a vital organ. Although, he seems to have suffered some serious brain damage:

In any case, he certainly does bleed:

He does nearly get decapitated by the Hound IIRC. It still does leave me curios as the why he can make his hand bleed but UnCat doesn't have blood gushing out of the scratches (which I've always pictured as more of being long, thin holes than mere scratches).

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I think the red priest ressurection ability is thematically parallel but not identical to the white walkers ability to reanimate the whites.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. They aren't controlled like most wights and seem to have free will. I wonder if it has something to do with the soul being forced/binded vs willing?

Could it be that only two kinds of 'species' can be wightified: humans and animals who have the lost soul of a dead skinchanger in them?

I like that idea. Afterall, who would want to skinchange into a worm? =P

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He does nearly get decapitated by the Hound IIRC. It still does leave me curios as the why he can make his hand bleed but UnCat doesn't have blood gushing out of the scratches (which I've always pictured as more of being long, thin holes than mere scratches).

UnCat had her throat cut, right? Maybe she's pretty much exsanguinated?

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Hmm ... very nice guys ... made me re-read and re-think (again) the Thistle story, and why she can see Varamyr after his true death, when whatever was left of him resided in One Eye.

Made me think about the wightified animals we have seen.

There are very few of them. One bear, maybe two if it wasn't the same bear at the Fist and later at the cave of the Children.

Some horses (I think there were indeed more of them).

Some dead ravens outside the cave of the Children and probably before surrounding Coldhands.

So, if everything that dies beyond the Wall rises as a wight, because of the white mist that preserves/the Others, why are there no wightified squirrels, rabbits mice, fleas or lice?

Could it be that only two kinds of 'species' can be wightified: humans and animals who have the lost soul of a dead skinchanger in them?

I think something actually has to be killed by a WW for the transformation to occur.

The frozen-to-death Wildlings from the weirwood grove beyond the Wall never transformed.

And when it occurs, it does so fairly rapidly. Hour or two at most. Possibly less. Above in a previous post I outlined the transformation time examples... Torwynd, Waymar, Thistle all transformed very quickly.

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UnCat had her throat cut, right? Maybe she's pretty much exsanguinated?

Yes.

And Beric has been run through several times... one of which was with a lance... had his head caved in, and cut almost in half diagonally by the Hound... yet somehow he hasn't quite bled out. I think we'll have to chalk this one up to "it's magic".

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<snip> Afterall, who would want to skinchange into a worm? =P

Merlin in the Disney adaption "The Sword in the Stone" of Gwion Bach.

... He turned himself into a hare on the land and she became a greyhound. He turned himself into a fish and jumped into a river: she then turned into an otter. He turned into a bird in the air, and in response she became a hawk.

Exhausted, Ceridwen managed to force him into a barn, where he turned into a single grain of corn and she became a tufted black hen and ate him. She became pregnant because of this. She resolved to kill the child, knowing it was Gwion, but when he was born he was so beautiful that she couldn't, so she had him put into a hide covered basket and thrown into the lake, river, or sea, depending on which version of this tale it is.

:laugh:

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Snip

ETA: *If the White Walkers can kill with just the cold, why do they even bother with those fancy swords? Poke a hole, spill some blood, make some room, let me in? :dunno:

Long ago, in the discussion about the WW fight with Royce the significance of blood came up in that Royce's sword does not shatter until after he is wounded. He touches his own wound and then his sword. I believed (and believe) it to be something magical in that the WW could make the sword shatter once there is blood on it.

However, this scene might work into your theory about spirits and blood.

A thought on Thistle being able to 'see' Varamyr in the wolf. She might be able to see him because he tried to take over her body, in that they shared the same space/mind/body for however short of a time.

When Varamyr tries to take over Thislte, he hears, "Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon?" There is something of Haggon in Varamyr, so there could be something of Thistle in Varamyr and vice versa. This could give Thistle the awareness to follow Varamyr to One-Eye.

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I think something actually has to be killed by a WW for the transformation to occur.

The frozen-to-death Wildlings from the weirwood grove beyond the Wall never transformed.

Maybe it has something to do with the weirwood grove, some type of protection. I think those were the bodies that Jon puts in the ice cell later. The magic of the Wall could prevent them from becoming wights. Also, didn't one of Tormund's son freeze to death and become a wight? Ygrette also wants to burn her 2 companions that are killed so the wildlings have a fear of them becoming wights no matter how they're killed.

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Maybe it has something to do with the weirwood grove, some type of protection. I think those were the bodies that Jon puts in the ice cell later. The magic of the Wall could prevent them from becoming wights. Also, didn't one of Tormund's son freeze to death and become a wight? Ygrette also wants to burn her 2 companions that are killed so the wildlings have a fear of them becoming wights no matter how they're killed.

I always got the impression that he died because of the Others (a reconciling point being that he froze to death because of the extra cold that is related to the Others); either way, the Others would have been involved in his death.

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It was implied by Tormund that his son died because of the cold mists, who are the "masters" of the dead people. On the other hand look at the wounds of Jafer.

Squatting beside the dead man he had named Jafer Flowers, Ser Jaremy grasped his head by the scalp.The hair came out between his fingers, brittle as straw. The knight cursed and shoved at the face with theheel of his hand.

A great gash in the side of the corpse's neck opened like a mouth, crusted with dried blood. Only a few ropes of pale tendon still attached the head to the neck. "This was done with an axe."

"Aye," muttered Dywen, the old forester. "Belike the axe that Othor carried, m'lord."

Does that sound as if it was caused by such a weapon?

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

I think that Ygrittes fear that the Wildlings, killed by Qhorin´s men, could turn into wights is reasonable.

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So what killed Thistle?

I think having to be killed by WW is too restrictive, but WW OR wights could work. Unless anyone can remember a wight that definitely died of some other cause?

It could explain the lack of Varamyr wight as well. And the lack of zombie squirrels and worms. And the records Sam found, they don't say the rise the dead, only that they rise the ones they kill (not sure whether wights are included, though)

But then, the wildlings do seem to worry about all corpses regardless of the manner of death...

A thought on Thistle being able to 'see' Varamyr in the wolf. She might be able to see him because he tried to take over her body, in that they shared the same space/mind/body for however short of a time.

That's a very good point, I didn't think of that, but now it seems more plausible than any other explanation. That would reduce the list of wight incidents that suggest external control to the very first attack at CB. BTW, coincidentally, that happens at the end of Spirit Summer; after the first time Jon mentions it (when they find the corpses), the very same afternoon:

They know, Jon realized. “My father is no traitor,” he said hoarsely. Even the words stuck in his throat, as if to choke him. The wind was rising, and it seemed colder in the yard than it had when he’d gone in. Spirit summer was drawing to an end

Then at night the corpses wake. Still not sure whether the spirit summer is something important here or is just there for the atmospheric effect...

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Tormund states that when it was wet or incredibly cold, fires were hard to light, and on those nights, they'd always find dead people...unless the dead ppl "found them" first (as wights) That's what happened to Torwynd.

Actually, he seems to make a distinction between the wet and cold:

“... Every nightfall we’d ring our camps with fire. They don’t like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it’s bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. ’Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …” Tormund turned his face away.

I asked this before - does it sould like the WW having to do with the bolded part, to anyone else? Admittedly I never experienced extreme cold, let alone trying to camp in it, so I can't be sure there isn't a natural reason for that...

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Sword Of Mid Afternoon, I read it differently. I think that Torwynd´s death was so exceptionally hurtful for Tormund because his son came back as a wight and that´s the reason why he mentions the dead finding you first.

... and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. ’Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …” Tormund turned his face away.

“I know,” said Jon Snow.

Tormund turned back. “You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like aknife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannotknow … can your sword cut cold?”

Dance, Jon.
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