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Heresy 21


Eyron

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I want to re-focus on the Old Gods on the North. We know there is much commonality in the North, and obviously we have the window of the Starks as keepers of the Old gods and all. How much solid 300AL demonstration do we have of other Northmen following the old gods? I'm sure its there, but I'm personally struggling to think up strong examples. There's a lot of fealty to the Starks, and a lot of easy assumption that the North is united which would make the North seemingly Old Gods leaning, I'm just trying to recall specifics and failing. I'm sure part of that is the stress of the week for me (and I'm oddly thankful the thread has been "slow" for our own standards for the past week as I've found zero time to catch-up).

I just feel the need to follow the tangential thought... What if the old gods is more a STARK thing than an entirety of the North thing. Obviously your liege lord's preference will highly sway your own thoughts, but I think the premise itself is clear enough. Like i said, I'm either not thinking clearly, or my confusion stumbled onto something... I'm sure I'll feel misguided soon enough :)

There was that remark to Jon, don't recall the precise words, about the old gods being the gods of the Starks. That could simply be interpreted as meaning that the Starks keep to the old gods, or it could, as you suggest mean that the Starks were once priest-kings with a close connection to them. There is an underlying assumption that the Last Hero was a Stark and whatever the precise circumstances he is certainly associated with the Children and, heretically, may also have a connection to the Others/Sidhe.

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I want to re-focus on the Old Gods on the North. We know there is much commonality in the North, and obviously we have the window of the Starks as keepers of the Old gods and all. How much solid 300AL demonstration do we have of other Northmen following the old gods? I'm sure its there, but I'm personally struggling to think up strong examples. There's a lot of fealty to the Starks, and a lot of easy assumption that the North is united which would make the North seemingly Old Gods leaning, I'm just trying to recall specifics and failing. I'm sure part of that is the stress of the week for me (and I'm oddly thankful the thread has been "slow" for our own standards for the past week as I've found zero time to catch-up).

I just feel the need to follow the tangential thought... What if the old gods is more a STARK thing than an entirety of the North thing. Obviously your liege lord's preference will highly sway your own thoughts, but I think the premise itself is clear enough. Like i said, I'm either not thinking clearly, or my confusion stumbled onto something... I'm sure I'll feel misguided soon enough :)

Outside of what has been posted about the mountain clans, I can't think of any instances of actual talk/thoughts of religion from the First Men families of the North, but I always felt that they followed the Old Gods as well, especially with the amount of emphasis put on the Manderlies keeping with the Seven.

However, a question has just been brought to mind: if the commoners of the North keep to the Old Gods like the Starks do, why have we not heard of natural weir wood groves outside of the castles? An why aren't there more regular trees with faces carved in them like what the wildings did to the trees between Castle Black and Mole's Town?

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Why would we? We've met no northern characters who were commoners and who had opportunity to talk about their beliefs.

I think a rough list of religious observance would be Ramsay’s heart tree wedding to Jeyne Poole, Ramsay's earlier wedding to Lady Hornwood (oaths said before gods and men), The Ned cleaning his sword in Catelyn I AGOT, The Ned and his girls praying in the Kings Landing godswood in AGOT, Robb and various others praying in the Riverrun godswood in AGOT, then the controversial words of LC Mormont that his father also believed that a man could not lie before a heart tree and finally the story of the retaking of the Wolf's den and the slavers' guts hung up on the weirwoods.

The difference is that down south the mentions of the gods of the seven, septs, the seven hells etc are a lot more frequent. Northern religiosity is possibly very different, but on the other hand we have more POVs in the south and from the perspective of southerners (roughly 24 POVs of which five are northerners, one of whom dies in AGOT).

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The difference is that down south the mentions of the gods of the seven, septs, the seven hells etc are a lot more frequent. Northern religiosity is possibly very different, but on the other hand we have more POVs in the south and from the perspective of southerners (roughly 24 POVs of which five are northerners, one of whom dies in AGOT).

Seems to me that another (maybe the main) difference is that the Seven Faith is a religion far more "pubblic". There are priests, temples, rites and people praying together. The Red Rahloo worshipping looks quite similar, with the extra of human sacrifices.

The Old Gods religion is instead "private". There are a deal less rites, seldom people pray in group, the temples are not considered the same way and, as far as we know, there are no confirmed priests or human sacrifices.

Maybe that's why we have heard less about the Northeners bonds with religion.

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I don't have a quote but I remember a line that says that every House in the North upholds a godswood with a weirwood tree.

That in such is no proof they hold on to the old gods of the North of course.

We have no pov's of an Umber or a Bolton, so we don't know if they pray and to what Gods.

The only other indication we have is that the Boltons agreed to the fake marriage before the old gods.

This was not a courtesy to Fake Arya, it was to appease the Northern houses.

So I think the Northern Houses do hold on to the old gods.

And of course the wildlings do, so the old gods are not solely gods the Starks believe in.

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unless i'm mistaken, manderlys are the only ones in the north who worship the seven and they came from the south fleeing their enemies.

and, once more unless i'm mistaken, even they have a godswood in white harbour.

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I want to re-focus on the Old Gods on the North. We know there is much commonality in the North, and obviously we have the window of the Starks as keepers of the Old gods and all. How much solid 300AL demonstration do we have of other Northmen following the old gods? I'm sure its there, but I'm personally struggling to think up strong examples. There's a lot of fealty to the Starks, and a lot of easy assumption that the North is united which would make the North seemingly Old Gods leaning, I'm just trying to recall specifics and failing. I'm sure part of that is the stress of the week for me (and I'm oddly thankful the thread has been "slow" for our own standards for the past week as I've found zero time to catch-up).

I just feel the need to follow the tangential thought... What if the old gods is more a STARK thing than an entirety of the North thing. Obviously your liege lord's preference will highly sway your own thoughts, but I think the premise itself is clear enough. Like i said, I'm either not thinking clearly, or my confusion stumbled onto something... I'm sure I'll feel misguided soon enough :)

The same thoughts were running through my mind after reading through the posts here on the NW and whether members are followers of the Old Gods or the Seven, but we have barely seen nobles, their houses and really no commoners from the North. ( There is no question the wildlings follow the Old Gods. ) I did want to check the books but a reread was not plausible so I did search my ebooks and I've only made it through AGoT checking a few different terms. There was twice that Bran thought "gods of the Starks, First Men and CotF", and a few times with others like Jon thinking of the Old Gods as the gods of the Starks with the only other references similar being with the gods of the children.

Now like other posters have mentioned there were others mentioned ( in AGot ) of visiting the godswood with Robb after the battle...Cat calls them followers of the Old Gods and sees Umber, Karstark, Mormont, Glover and more then mentions the Blackwoods from the Riverlands, but no "and their men" or no commoners mentioned. ( but commoners are not the focus in the story either ) I do not however consider any children playing in any godswood evidence of religion because it is mention how private, pretty and a good place to play inside a castle and it's something done in the South too. ( see Cat, Lysa and LF ) The only other character I could think of besides a Stark to visit a godswood to worship was Osha so I'm curious to check the other books now and it made me think of things like this next post....

Outside of what has been posted about the mountain clans, I can't think of any instances of actual talk/thoughts of religion from the First Men families of the North, but I always felt that they followed the Old Gods as well, especially with the amount of emphasis put on the Manderlies keeping with the Seven.

However, a question has just been brought to mind: if the commoners of the North keep to the Old Gods like the Starks do, why have we not heard of natural weir wood groves outside of the castles? An why aren't there more regular trees with faces carved in them like what the wildings did to the trees between Castle Black and Mole's Town?

I am curious to check up on the Moutain Clans because I do equate them as Old God followers.

I did think of your second paragraph as well. It made me contemplate where do the commoners worship or where are their hearttrees or even just weirwoods? I don't think castle godswwods are open to all and the only weirwood with a face in the North outside of a castle I could think of was from Theon's sample chapter I think and that was in a village but still more accessible for randon commoners. ( there could be more of course that we have just not heard about or I simply have forgot ) I would still expect a feverent worship like we see with the wildlings though and I would expect to see more wild weirwoods with faces but I have only checked the first book too.

This line of thought lead me to think about White Harbor which I have not looked into yet. I seem to remeber they recieved a flood of commoners from the North seeking refuge and I don't recall them seeking out the godswood. White Harbor's godswood, IIRC, is inaccessible at the Wolf's Den but wouldn't they still want to pray to and be with their gods at such a time?

Maester Luwin does tell Bran about the great houses though...

...In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods,...

...and Will, a NW man, in the prologue does say a prayer to the nameless gods of the wood.

So maybe I'm looking for something that is just not there but it is fun to have a new angle to look at even if it does not go anywhere. :)

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We don't know that AA story originates in Asshai, only that the earliest known written record of the story resides in a supposedly 5000 year old book that currently is stored there... in fact, outside of this book and Mel being "of Asshai", all the evidence about the Faith of R'hllor that we have actually seen points to it being centered around the Free Cities, not Asshai.

Another view is that the others are not just a westeros problem. AA came from somewhere in the east. Its possible that the Andal invasion might be to do with defending the wall. In the Northmen they found people committed to just that so didnt need to conquer. Probably doesn't fit, however the idea that the others are restricted to a westeros problem doesn't either.

At that time if westeros was possesed by the others the powers in essos must have heard of it and known its us next. the Andal invaders may also have been steeped in the fear of the others as well. Indeed if AA was the eastern hero who came to westeros whats to say they were not already Andal recruits volunteering for the wall before any invasion??

As I read this, it came to my mind that perhaps Asshai is not only east of Westeros, but also west of it. That the world is not flat, but round. Was this discussed in these threads? I saw it was discussed in some other threads, but didn't find it in the heretic threads (which I realls enjoy reading btw).

As far as I know, we haven't seen the far east and west of the fictional world. It could be, that up hight in the lands of winter, when it becomes really cold, like during the long winter, the water freezes and people or Others can walk over the ice to the far east and Asshai. (Passing through/under the shadow?) Like between Russia and Alaska. That could explain why the prophecies are kept there and not in Westeros (where everything had been destroyed?).

I recall, that there were also some crazy Ironmen which travelled westward in the sunset sea. Did they return? I'm not able to check the books right now. Anyway, I really like the idea that the world is actually round.

Please exuse any misspelling :)

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Welcome Le Rouge! Sadly GRRM recently said if I recall correctly that there will not be a full map of the world of ASOIAF. So we don't know for sure that it is situated on a planet and if what is in the east continues in the west, or if the north meets the south somewhere.

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I think that perhaps too much can be read into a lack of "worship" in the North and perhaps by southerners as well as readers.

Both the Faith of the Seven and the not unrelated Red Lot appear to be a a hierarchical church, not unlike in many ways the holy apostolic and catholic church in our world, with priests/septons, high priests, high septons and so on, based around formal worship in septs and temples. The honouring of the Old Gods seems to be much more informal and contemplative, attuned to nature rather than edifices of stone and organised priesthoods. In their own way northerners (and wildlings) are probably just as devout and perhaps more so than their southern neighbours since they are closer to the natural things they worship, but because they lack the outward, material structures of the other faiths this may not be apparent to outsiders.

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this just kind of a shot in the dark but what if brandon the builder wanted the wildlings on the other side of the wall. if the WW need young boys to either feed/power them or transform the boys into WW themselves and the WW had been taking stark boys i could easily see brandon trapping thousands of people as a "sacrifice" in order to save his kin.

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As I read this, it came to my mind that perhaps Asshai is not only east of Westeros, but also west of it. That the world is not flat, but round. Was this discussed in these threads? I saw it was discussed in some other threads, but didn't find it in the heretic threads (which I realls enjoy reading btw).

As far as I know, we haven't seen the far east and west of the fictional world. It could be, that up hight in the lands of winter, when it becomes really cold, like during the long winter, the water freezes and people or Others can walk over the ice to the far east and Asshai. (Passing through/under the shadow?) Like between Russia and Alaska. That could explain why the prophecies are kept there and not in Westeros (where everything had been destroyed?).

I recall, that there were also some crazy Ironmen which travelled westward in the sunset sea. Did they return? I'm not able to check the books right now. Anyway, I really like the idea that the world is actually round.

Please exuse any misspelling :)

I had an idea that was inspired by someone here that AA came from Asshai, sailed East to the Iron Islands, where his ship was wrecked (or something along those lines) and was revived either by CPR or the "fire kiss", which created the religion of the Drowned God. He then continued East and landed in Westeros where he, at some point, got involved in the situation with the Long Night.

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