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Heresy 21


Eyron

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This is off the current topic but I wonder what thoughts or opinions some of you might have on the symbolism of the stone chains that bound the winged wolf?

ACoK

"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

ASoS

"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth by chains of stone, and came to Winterfell to free him. The chains are off you now, yet still you do not fly."

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This is off the current topic but I wonder what thoughts or opinions some of you might have on the symbolism of the stone chains that bound the winged wolf?

ACoK

ASoS

It could be as simple as the walls of Winterfell?

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This is off the current topic but I wonder what thoughts or opinions some of you might have on the symbolism of the stone chains that bound the winged wolf?

ACoK

ASoS

I think it would equate Bran to the Norse wolf Fenrir, who is bound in chains(from the roots of mountains etc) while Tyr put his hand in his mouth to ensure trust while being bound. Tyr Lost his hand. Also equates Jamie with the Norse god Tyr, (but possibly also the Celtic god Nuada.)

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And Maester Luwin - telling him his dreams mean nothing.

Maester Luwin at times has me curious, with his (I think would have to check) Valyrian steel chain link, a link most maester's don't attempt to achieve. Why was he sent to Winterfell as Ned's Maester? He was not his father's Maester from what we here from Lady Dustin.

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It could be as simple as the walls of Winterfell?

Yes I think it is the walls of winterfell and his attachment to home that stopped him from journying north to learn from bloodraven.

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Or, maybe the maester himself was the stone chains:

He was a small grey man with grey eyes and hair. He had a robe of grey wool with voluminous sleeves.

Grey grey and grey, often the color of stones.

Edit: Along with the maester attempting to dissuade Bran that magic, the CoTF, the Others and so on, do not exist.

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One thing about the past usage of the Shieldhall though is it was for knights who took the black. This is the the quote from Dance and I made sure to include the "list" for anyone who wants to see it...

The list is impressive, albeit told of in song and story rather than beheld there and then. The flayed man certainly sounds like a Bolton, but as Elaena rightly points out the whole emphasis of this passage is on the knights who aren't a feature of northern society no longer joining the Watch.

Point taken about other northerners who did join the Watch and especially Rodrik Flint, who presents an interesting parallel with Jon, but it still sounds like an organisation made up of southerners but led by northerners and wonder if there was soime kind of deal involved there.

Bloodraven obviously wasn't a northerner but given his connections (and I mean the old ones) and powers of persuasion...

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Maester Luwin at times has me curious, with his (I think would have to check) Valyrian steel chain link, a link most maester's don't attempt to achieve. Why was he sent to Winterfell as Ned's Maester? He was not his father's Maester from what we here from Lady Dustin.

IIRC he came with Cat from RR. He delivered all her children, and Robb was born at RR.

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Yes I think it is the walls of winterfell and his attachment to home that stopped him from journying north to learn from bloodraven.

I agree that the stone chains are the walls of Winterfell, but think its simpler than that insofar as its not his attachment to home that's the problem, but that having broken his back he was stuck in Winterfell, and while the Three-eyed Crow was attempting to teach him to fly at a distance, it needed somebody to physically transport him north beyond the Wall.

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I just don't think there's any way to support this conclusion. Of the named Lords Commander in the books we have a Qorgyle of Dorne, a Hightower of Oldtown, a Mudd of the Riverlands, a Hill from the West, Sleepy Jack Musgood from the Stormlands and then the brother of Harren the Black from the Iron Islands, besides of course Mormont, Osric Stark, Rodrik Flint and Jon Snow...and perhaps the Night's King if we're going to acknowledge that as a true story and him a legitimate Lord Commander. It seems that the leadership of the Night's Watch has passed back and forth between the North and South.

I think the important thing about the Lords Commander is not that they're northerners, but that they are of First Men families. We know that the Hightowers are First Men; of course all the northerners (with the possible exception of the Mormonts, but for the sake of this argument, I'll say they are First Men;, Sandstone, the seat of the Qorgyls, is far enough inland to possibly still be First Men a la the Daynes; the Iron Islanders are First Men, so Harren the Black's brother would be of the First Men; it's impossible to know what family the Hill comes from, could be First Men, could not be; the Mudds, who formerly ruled as Kings from Oldstones, are First Men; can't find anything on the Musgoods, so, like LC Hill, could be First Men, could not be.

With the possible exceptions of LC's Hill and Musgood, all the Lords Commander we know of are likely all of First Men blood, which leads me to believe that Hill and Musgood are as well.

ETA: Also Bloodraven has First Men blood through Mama Blackwood

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I just don't think there's any way to support this conclusion. Of the named Lords Commander in the books we have a Qorgyle of Dorne, a Hightower of Oldtown, a Mudd of the Riverlands, a Hill from the West, Sleepy Jack Musgood from the Stormlands and then the brother of Harren the Black from the Iron Islands, besides of course Mormont, Osric Stark, Rodrik Flint and Jon Snow...and perhaps the Night's King if we're going to acknowledge that as a true story and him a legitimate Lord Commander. It seems that the leadership of the Night's Watch has passed back and forth between the North and South.

I do not think it is that they are led necessarily by Northerners, but that Northerners are more likely to rise. Perhaps due to their connection to the North, their better ability to withstand the cold, or other reasons. But an organization that is made up of predominantly Southerners seems to have a disproportionate number of Northern leaders for the sample of LC's we are given.

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That's why I wonder whether it was part of the deal, as in: yes you can come north to chase the old races beyond the Wall and make sure they don't come back, but you'll appreciate that after years of fighting to keep Andal armies out of the North we'll have to insist that our people are in charge.

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Mayhaps it's politics?

With the majority of the men coming from the south and being knights, they could have brought their old rivalries with them.

Like the way Sam worked to get Jon elected, I could see it coming down to the last few men and some southerns deciding they'd rather a northern LC than a southern one from a rival or unpopular House.

These things are still important to the Knights and others who hold their Honor sacred.

It must have been much harder to keep a lid on those types of fights when there were hundreds of knights roaming around.

Just finished a re-read of ADWD and this time I caught the tension that was between Jon and Alyassa when they were talking of Robb. She flat out asks him if there is a blood debt between them and Jon doesn't say no - he only says he's in the Watch now. Not that Jon wouldn't help her anyway - she is a woman and a Lady but none the less, it would be his duty to kill her uncle and every other Karstark male of age if he was free to do so. You can tell it's in the back of Jon's mind, I think.

Chequy Lions - Do we know whose House signil that is? I was thinking of Pod Payne - his has purple and white chequy but I don't know about the Lion.

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The Chequy Lion is from The Sworn Sword, of House Osgrey.

ETA: They were hit hard by the drought so I indeed doubt they were Northern. IIRC, they were of the Reach. D&E had returned from Dorne? It has been a while since I read it.

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