Heresy 21

[Black Crow]

And for a complete change of subject...

I've been thinking about Coldhands of late and how he appears to be dead but doesn't behave like the other undead we've met. When explaining his cold black hands and how the blood drains down after death he seems curiously detatched, rather is if it isn't his own body but one he's simply using.

We've discussed before how wights appear to be "made" by awakening the spirit in the body and that its this spirit or soul which reveals itself as a blue light behind the eyes - hence Thistle's blue light in her empty eye-sockets. Coldhands conspicuously doesn't have blue eyes, which is why we've been inclined to dismiss him as a wight, but consider Bran's experience of warging Hodor, when Hodor's spirit retreats into a hidey-hole.

What I'm suggesting is that Coldhands is indeed a wight, but doesn't display bright blue eyes because the awakened soul is hiding, as Hodor does, while somebody else entirely has taken over.

[Ciazio]

What I'm suggesting is that Coldhands is indeed a wight, but doesn't display bright blue eyes because the awakened soul is hiding, as Hodor does, while somebody else entirely has taken over.

I agree, this is one of the most intriguing explanations of CH's nature.

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Going back to the Knights Hospitaliers, I found this line in Wikipedia:

In 1604, each Langue (regions given to the Order to defend) was given a chapel in the conventual church of St. John and the arms of the Langue appear in the decoration on the walls and ceiling:

It remembers me of the Shield Hall.

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Moreover, completely off-subject: I read on another thread (can't remember the name of the poster) a suggestion about Hodor's "nature" in relation to the Norse Mitology.

The guy suggested that the origin of the name Hodor is to be linked to the god Hoder (Höðr): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6%C3%B0r

Maybe it's an important clue for someone more expert in Norse mitology than me (I'm looking especially to the linking between ASOIAF characters and Norse gods).

[FanTasy]

I'd give a lot to know this for certain. I think when you consider that the story of Azor Ahai and TPTWP comes from Asshai though, you have to consider that the time of the Others may have covered much of the known world.

Quite. And I only just now :frown5: remembered that a southern lad like Samwell seems perfectly aware about the Others. So probably the tale is told throughout Westeros as a whole, even if - as Black Crow states up thread - it may be that the Others when they came the first time did not come further south than the Neck.

[Music Loving Chemist.]

Quite. And I only just now :frown5: remembered that a southern lad like Samwell seems perfectly aware about the Others. So probably the tale is told throughout Westeros as a whole, even if - as Black Crow states up thread - it may be that the Others when they came the first time did not come further south than the Neck.

Sam is very bookish though, he would have been informing himself of the Wall and what its about before even arriving there. So we can't really use him as a standard for the rest of the south =/

[Stark@heart]

And as far as the Eyrie?

You've got to admit - The Eyrie has the best defenses and best fall back position in all the Seven Kingdoms but what if the things you are fighting are dead?

Cotter Pyke's letter mentions "dead things in the water", which made me picture the scene from the 1st Pirates of the Caribean movie - where they actually walk along the sea bed to reach a boat instead of rowing out.

Don't know if the Others can hold their breath that long but dead things would have no problem moving south if they took the sea route. They could come ashore and wreak havoc almost anywhere with that advantage but I think their masters have to be near.

I think we'll see the Others coming south again by the mid point of TWOW.

[Black Crow]

Sam is very bookish though, he would have been informing himself of the Wall and what its about before even arriving there. So we can't really use him as a standard for the rest of the south =/

As I recall it was scary stories at bed-time.

[FanTasy]

Sam is very bookish though, he would have been informing himself of the Wall and what its about before even arriving there. So we can't really use him as a standard for the rest of the south =/

True, but if I recall correctly he says somewhere that as a child he was told a similar story as the one Old Nan tells the Stark kids.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I'd give a lot to know this for certain. I think when you consider that the story of Azor Ahai and TPTWP comes from Asshai though, you have to consider that the time of the Others may have covered much of the known world.

We don't know that AA story originates in Asshai, only that the earliest known written record of the story resides in a supposedly 5000 year old book that currently is stored there... in fact, outside of this book and Mel being "of Asshai", all the evidence about the Faith of R'hllor that we have actually seen points to it being centered around the Free Cities, not Asshai.

[jon rr stark]

Again there are historical parallels. The Romans were wont to conquer people at one end of their empire and then demand recruits for their Auxiliary units, who would be posted to the opposite end, where they could do a good job defending the frontier without any worries about their being revolting. This is why for example on Hadrian's Wall there was a unit of boatmen from the Tigris (Iraq) shipping supplies up and down the Tyne, and at least one unit of bowmen from the same region.

As pointed out, if Westeros is the size of South America and the North as big as Brazil, then the Wall is a long way from the Neck and passing recruits to the Wall is indeed comparable with sending younger sons to join the Knights of St. John to guard against the greater threat from the Ottoman Turks.

This again comes back to a heretical re-interpretation of the Nights King story, because I nevertheless agree with Sword of the Mid Afternoon that sending/allowing Andal troops to pass through the defences of the Neck to the North doesn't make sense in the context of sustained conflict between a newly Andal dominated south and the First Men hold-outs in the North. However, if its the First Men and the Old Races, and Stark of Winterfell cuts a deal allowing the Andal crusaders in to defeat the Old Races and chase them beyond the Wall in return for their support for making him King in the North - perhaps finally defeating the likes of the Boltons as well in the process, and bringing in Andal families such as the Manderleys, as some of the early Scottish kings did to help cement their position, then we start to make sense of some of the very real contradictions highlighted by Sword.

Another view is that the others are not just a westeros problem. AA came from somewhere in the east. Its possible that the Andal invasion might be to do with defending the wall. In the Northmen they found people committed to just that so didnt need to conquer. Probably doesn't fit, however the idea that the others are restricted to a westeros problem doesn't either.

At that time if westeros was possesed by the others the powers in essos must have heard of it and known its us next. the Andal invaders may also have been steeped in the fear of the others as well. Indeed if AA was the eastern hero who came to westeros whats to say they were not already Andal recruits volunteering for the wall before any invasion??

[SerLoin]

I think something actually has to be killed by a WW for the transformation to occur.

The frozen-to-death Wildlings from the weirwood grove beyond the Wall never transformed.

And when it occurs, it does so fairly rapidly. Hour or two at most. Possibly less. Above in a previous post I outlined the transformation time examples... Torwynd, Waymar, Thistle all transformed very quickly.

Tormunds son dies and rises as a wight and Tormund had to "take care of it". I forget his sons name, but he was only sick when he died not wounded.

[7V3N]

Very off topic but I have really been thinking of the Lannister stories of Robb's battles: Northmen feeding enemies to their wolves, changing into wolves themselves, eating the flesh of the dead, ...

Is it possible that these were true long ago? When skinchanging was much more common in the North, perhaps men could not or were not discouraged from embracing their wolf side (since wolves/direwolves are easy to warg into, and were more common in the North in the past). We see that Bran likes the taste of blood from being in Summer, and it has not been very long that they have shared Summer's skin. Could the Northmen have been freely allowed to hunt down their enemies and succumb to their desires to eat the flesh and drink the blood of their foes? Not to mention that reputation has remained in Skagos, a part of the North that has been (as far as I know) untouched by the Iron Throne. Those stories by the Lannisters and Freys just seem like they are more than a farfetched BS story, but a historically accurate tidbit of Northern history. GRRM does love to drop bits of truth with his misinformation.

Also, I had a thing with the 3 heads of the dragon that my friends seem to like:

The three heads of the dragon will be Dany, Tyrion, and Jon--the presumed main characters--who all have one major connection. That connection is that their mothers died while giving birth to them. The heads make me think of how a baby's head is the first to come out. Also, the Nissa Nissa sacrifice comes to mind.

[7V3N]

I think it's just more a combination of Grey Wind being a part of the battles and a force with superior numbers making excuses for losing. Areas of the North do have a history of human sacrifice and cannibalism, but outside of possible legends surviving to the present I can't really see any sort of direct connection.

I think we have a misunderstanding. I meant that the stories were true in the past, not the present. The stories told were meant to describe the (false) current situation and turn people against the North, but accidentally informed us readers of a possible past of the Northerners that has been forgotten or hidden.

[Black Wolf Smith]

That's somewhat tangential to the point I was making however. Basically, the point is that the Others aren't solely a Westerosi phenomenon.

Didn't Black Crow make that point, at the end of the last thread or early in this one?

Even if the Long night was just in Westeros, there would have to be afffects to other parts of the world. A never ending day in middile of Essos would likely cook crops in the field, there wouldn't be any cool down from a hot day.

[Frey Pie]

Also, I had a thing with the 3 heads of the dragon that my friends seem to like:

The three heads of the dragon will be Dany, Tyrion, and Jon--the presumed main characters--who all have one major connection. That connection is that their mothers died while giving birth to him. The heads make me think of how a baby's head is the first to come out. Also, the Nissa Nissa sacrifice comes to mind.

I very much like this. I dont want it to be true but it has a symmetry which is pleasing. If they are Targs themselves then this just adds to it

[Elaena Targaryen]

Also, I had a thing with the 3 heads of the dragon that my friends seem to like:

The three heads of the dragon will be Dany, Tyrion, and Jon--the presumed main characters--who all have one major connection. That connection is that their mothers died while giving birth to them. The heads make me think of how a baby's head is the first to come out. Also, the Nissa Nissa sacrifice comes to mind.

I very much like this. I dont want it to be true but it has a symmetry which is pleasing. If they are Targs themselves then this just adds to it

Just to be silly and throw out a different "symmetry" with the "3 heads of the dragon"...we all know Dany may well be one of the 3 heads and there is something 2 other people have in common with her plus these two would be great! Cersei and Arya. :P What do they have in common? They are the only 3 characters who had their heads shaved bald ( Dany's hair burnt )...3 heads of the dragon - 3 shaved heads - 3 queens...I like it! :) ( well 3 queens if Arya story goes that way which I have high hopes for against reason )

[Bloodraven's Eye]

That's a funny connection but if every girl who shaved their hair was eligible to be a head of the dragon, then every peasant girl from flea bottom would be getting in line to jump on drogon (not drogo, they might get in line to jump on that regardless). I've always thought that the three heads would be tyrion, dany, and jon. I'm not opposed to theories that Bran might try to communicate or skinchange into a dragon. Anyone ever thought that the dragon having three heads might mean three lives? Like the three temperings of lightbringer?

[mrazny]

This is off the current topic but I wonder what thoughts or opinions some of you might have on the symbolism of the stone chains that bound the winged wolf?

ACoK

ASoS

The specifics of the stone chains may not prove significant, but obviously we'll see. He was specifically limited before but is not now so. It does hint at a few important things: that the TEC was aware of Bran before, and also that he needed something to change the status quo to get through. This doesn't strongly imply that the TEC had anything to do with Bran getting pushed out the window, but it leaves open the conspiracy (however monumentally weak that it is).

[mrazny]

I agree. Mormont was a black brother through and through. I always wondered about the willingness to give away the Valyrian steel blade of House Mormont to Jon though. Jorah declined taking it with him, if I recall correctly because he thought it belonged to House Mormont and he was not worthy to keep it.

And his father gave orders to alter it and gives it away to a black brother ... very strange.

Never thought about it before, but how come Longclaw is at the Watch in the first place, in Mormont's possession?

Jeor took the black before his son fell into disgrace (ETA: and did not take the sword with him.) Why did House Mormont (ETA after his successor declined taking it) give the house sword to someone who by taking the black gave up all ties to the possessions of his house? Surely it should be Maege's sword then.

Very weird.

So I suspect Longclaw will have a role to fulfill, there must be a reason why GRRM has plotted for the sword to be at the Wall and to be in Jon's possession now.

We are given little about Longclaw, and there is still a mack truck sized hole that any number of reasons can poor in. The pet theorum that Longclaw is truly Dark Sister is of course still one of the masses :)

[mrazny]

I want to re-focus on the Old Gods on the North. We know there is much commonality in the North, and obviously we have the window of the Starks as keepers of the Old gods and all. How much solid 300AL demonstration do we have of other Northmen following the old gods? I'm sure its there, but I'm personally struggling to think up strong examples. There's a lot of fealty to the Starks, and a lot of easy assumption that the North is united which would make the North seemingly Old Gods leaning, I'm just trying to recall specifics and failing. I'm sure part of that is the stress of the week for me (and I'm oddly thankful the thread has been "slow" for our own standards for the past week as I've found zero time to catch-up).

I just feel the need to follow the tangential thought... What if the old gods is more a STARK thing than an entirety of the North thing. Obviously your liege lord's preference will highly sway your own thoughts, but I think the premise itself is clear enough. Like i said, I'm either not thinking clearly, or my confusion stumbled onto something... I'm sure I'll feel misguided soon enough :)

[Black Wolf Smith]

I want to re-focus on the Old Gods on the North. We know there is much commonality in the North, and obviously we have the window of the Starks as keepers of the Old gods and all. How much solid 300AL demonstration do we have of other Northmen following the old gods? I'm sure its there, but I'm personally struggling to think up strong examples. There's a lot of fealty to the Starks, and a lot of easy assumption that the North is united which would make the North seemingly Old Gods leaning, I'm just trying to recall specifics and failing. I'm sure part of that is the stress of the week for me (and I'm oddly thankful the thread has been "slow" for our own standards for the past week as I've found zero time to catch-up).

I just feel the need to follow the tangential thought... What if the old gods is more a STARK thing than an entirety of the North thing. Obviously your liege lord's preference will highly sway your own thoughts, but I think the premise itself is clear enough. Like i said, I'm either not thinking clearly, or my confusion stumbled onto something... I'm sure I'll feel misguided soon enough :)

I am pretty sure in the Theon sample chapter it talks about the moutain clans belief in the Old Gods. While I don't know about many of the other noble(major?) houses in the north, the lack of faith in the New Gods is why there are few knights in the north.