Heresy 21

[Efilnikufesin]

I wonder if we are dealing with two different entities white walkers and the mist. Could be that the WW can change to mist, but what convinces me that is not so is Sam's killing of the walker.

[Efilnikufesin]

I think the red priest ressurection ability is thematically parallel but not identical to the white walkers ability to reanimate the whites.

Any heretics want to make some heretical speculation as to why one half of the doors of the temple of the faceless ones is made of weirwood? or is it just because weirwoods are cool?

It may be just the theme of "The Many Faced God" where aspects of all religions are symbolized/included.

[7V3N]

Snip

Long ago, in the discussion about the WW fight with Royce the significance of blood came up in that Royce's sword does not shatter until after he is wounded. He touches his own wound and then his sword. I believed (and believe) it to be something magical in that the WW could make the sword shatter once there is blood on it.

However, this scene might work into your theory about spirits and blood.

A thought on Thistle being able to 'see' Varamyr in the wolf. She might be able to see him because he tried to take over her body, in that they shared the same space/mind/body for however short of a time.

When Varamyr tries to take over Thislte, he hears, "Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon?" There is something of Haggon in Varamyr, so there could be something of Thistle in Varamyr and vice versa. This could give Thistle the awareness to follow Varamyr to One-Eye.

Perhaps freezing the blood, just as Beric inflames his blood.

I agree that Thistle seeing Varamyr has something to do with him trying to warg her. Perhaps he partitioned his "soul" and the part in wight!Thistle is reaching to the part in One-Eye. Does Summer feel something special in the wolf when he becomes the pack leader (my interpretation)?

[greygnarl]

Perhaps freezing the blood, just as Beric inflames his blood.

I agree that Thistle seeing Varamyr has something to do with him trying to warg her. Perhaps he partitioned his "soul" and the part in wight!Thistle is reaching to the part in One-Eye. Does Summer feel something special in the wolf when he becomes the pack leader (my interpretation)?

I've always thought that scene was weird. In my mind it proves that wights are more than zombies because Thistle sees him, but also I thought it was missing an obvious chance for a powerful image with Varamyr seeing his own body. Maybe his body couldn't be made into a wight because his 'soul' wasn't present.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Actually, he seems to make a distinction between the wet and cold:

I asked this before - does it sould like the WW having to do with the bolded part, to anyone else? Admittedly I never experienced extreme cold, let alone trying to camp in it, so I can't be sure there isn't a natural reason for that...

Yes, I never thought it was anything other than the Others. That super-cold comes from the Others, no doubt.... just like when Waymar fought them, when SmallPaul/Grenn/Sam fought/killed the one, on the Fist..... actually the cold has come every time we've seen the Others. BUT it wasn't the cold that killed any of them.

The Wildlings would be even less like to die from the cold... even an hour or two of super-WW-Cold... As nomadic/early pastoral folk, the most oppulent shelter ever available to them is a lean-to and or crude tent. This harsh environment is their environment. It's made them tougher. (Not unlike the Fremen in Dune, but in reverse... rather than toughened from a scorching desert, the FreeFolk are toughened from a frigid sub-arctic tundra.)

I don't think we have any evidence of WW's killing with their cold? None comes to mind. Is it possible? Most likely, yes. But that seems a very passive aggressive method of attack. WW's have never struck me as the passive-aggressive type. When they strike, they do so in a most assertive manner.

Be it rain/sleet/snow or the super-natural cold... the fires could not be started or went out.... at which point the WWs would strike the flanks of the camp.

The only people who actually froze to death that I can think of are the fellas Jon found at the Weirwood grove and the handful of the very young & very old who died in the holding-pen/camp before being allowed South of the Wall.

So yes, it's certainly possible... but I think of the super-cold as a side-effect of the Others, rather than a directed method of attack.

[Eyron]

I wonder if we are dealing with two different entities white walkers and the mist. Could be that the WW can change to mist, but what convinces me that is not so is Sam's killing of the walker.

The flesh of the white walker turned to white mist when stabbed, so there may still be some connection there.

[Efilnikufesin]

The flesh of the white walker turned to white mist when stabbed, so there may still be some connection there.

Here's the quote from the book when Sam stabs the Other, hard to tell if he puddled up or turned to mist, seems a bit of both.

When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale

blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It

reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers

touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In

twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were

bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the

dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn

bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. “Mother, that’s cold.”

[Eyron]

Yes it was the flesh that turned into mist. Point was that it still seems connected to the mists somehow, literally in this case. The bones and blue blood is something else.

[Efilnikufesin]

Yes it was the flesh that turned into mist. Point was that it still seems connected to the mists somehow, literally in this case. The bones and blue blood is something else.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I was connecting the mist with the WW's, but simply stating that on top of the walkers there are entities that are mist in form.

[Eyron]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I was connecting the mist with the WW's, but simply stating that on top of the walkers there are entities that are mist in form.

I understood, but I think I was a bit unclear myself (I usually am). To me it still seems like the WWs are part mist because of their flesh turning to white mist, not that the mist must be a different entity all together. I don't rule out that the mists are something different, but I don't rule out the possibility that the WWs are created [partially] from the mists either because of the description of the WW dieing.

[7V3N]

So the mist is the "soul" of the White Walkers (sort of fits with the name doesn't it? White=transparent, light, etc. Walkers implies that they do not normally walk/there is something special about the fact that they are walking). So the white mists somehow create a shell of ice that can harness their spirits into a more corporeal form. That brings me to my next point: Who creates these ice shells? Is that this Great Other, a Queen Other, or something along those lines, or do they have something similar to warlocks and greenseers?

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

OR.... The mists could just be a result of the simple fact that WWs, their arms, and armor are all super-cooled, and thus colder than the surrounding environment.

[alienarea]

So the mist is the "soul" of the White Walkers (sort of fits with the name doesn't it? White=transparent, light, etc. Walkers implies that they do not normally walk). So the white mists somehow create a shell of ice that can harness their spirits into a more corporeal form. That brings me to my next point: Who creates these ice shells? Is that this Great Other, a Queen Other, or something along those lines, or do they have something similar to warlocks and greenseers?

And where do the bones come from? Because if the WWs are just very cold mist that became solid, they wouldn't need bones.

There are two sayings in ASoIaF: "the north remembers" and "the bones remember". Does this imply there are some special bones in the north? That connects with the crypts of Winterfell and the dead Starks buried there.

[Tyryan Lannister]

And where do the bones come from? Because if the WWs are just very cold mist that became solid, they wouldn't need bones.

There are two sayings in ASoIaF: "the north remembers" and "the bones remember". Does this imply there are some special bones in the north? That connects with the crypts of Winterfell and the dead Starks buried there.

For all we know, "words are wind" might have a special meaning relative to all this as well; currently don't believe there is, though I'm searching for a possible one

[Unholly Septon]

Ok from all that I heard on this forum and others as well,I think the best Theorries I've found so far are:

1.The Others are not for sure ''evil''.They are another life form...

2.There was surelly a war between them and the allied CotF and First men which resulted in the building of the Wall,in which the Wildlings may have helped as well,because they were relatives back then and not enemies.

3.The Night King became groom of ''the Ice'' by marrying one WW woman.He became King of the Winter in his castle Nightfort which was the primary Stark Castle.The Stark words ''

[Unholly Septon]

...The Winter is coming are maybe not a warning but something deeper...The other Starks killed him with Jorahmunt's help and the NW's main purpose was founded back then.

4.His name was Brandon and maybe he is Coldhand.If him ''The Ice''and Bloodraven''The fire''are the record keepers and this is their story,then it surelly is ''The song of ice and fire''

5.When they killed him,he became wight and that's why The Starks keep swords in their Graves.Maybe the NW decided to wear black opposed to the NK's traditions(maybe)...he may have them dressed in white like snow...He was the king of Winter after all.

6.The Horn of Winter is the broken horn that Jon found.Someone broke it to protect the wall.The WW attacked to claim it(?) and later went after Sam for the same reason.

7.The Night Watch is lightbringer...''I am the sword blah blah the light...''and Azhor Ahai is Jon.He will be reborn by Mel in smoke(his smoking wounds)and salt(Bowen is crying and tears are salty),after her fiery kiss,the Dragon in him will be awaken and he won't be hurted by fire.

8(that one is mine)Ashai and Vallyria have a lot of things to reveal us,but I think the Feceless Men are responsible for the Doom in some way and that Arya is maybe with the wrong side,given that Jaken is spying at the citadel.

[Unholly Septon]

And to conclude,if the NK was the one dying in Bran's vision,then given by the savage way they killed him,maybe his motivations were not bad and he just died in a Succession War.If he cooperates with Bloodraven and the CotF then that states he is not bad,given that the wights fought him outside the cave,so they are not allies.So perfect and complex story.I do believe the WW have another purpose rather than killing everyone,because they would have easilly killed Mances people given their strength...Something last that I want someone to tell me,is if there might be a meaning in Ygwriet's(Jon's dead girlfriend)words to Jon when they climped the wall,actually meant something(?)..I t was something like''we dag deep to find the Horn of Winter and instead we relisheed all those shadows...''

[FanTasy]

Good grief. Just started on (the fifth) re-read session and happily consumed the first chapters of AGOT today.

Bran in AGOT watches the beheading of the deserter. He is described as very interested in the blood that is soaked up by the snow.

Nice foreshadowing of the blood he in ADWD tastes in his vision of the guy who was killed by the sickle lady. And those times he is described being in Summer and tasting blood come to mind. Seems like there is a connection blood - Bran. (Read as the connection blood - raven, as Bran is a Celtic word for Raven, if I recall the find in one of the earliest Heresy threads correctly.

And we get it all dished up as early as in the first chapter of AGOT. Very, very cunning writing. :bowdown:

Another thing struck me. After the beheading Ned asks Bran if he knows why he (Ned) did the beheading himself, and explains that one day Bran will hold a keep for his brother and "justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away".

Poor Theon, he may definitely have it coming for him :blushing:

What I'm going to keep an eye for at this re-read is what I noticed in the prologue and other chapters: lots of talk about the moon. Could just be GRRM setting up atmosphere, but there is much mention of moons later on. It was a half moon when the Others appeared though, not a crescent.

Have to check if there was a moon described at the second sighting of an Other, when Small Paul was killed.

The Others only come by night, is the moon somehow important?

I remember when I was a kid my father told me that the coldest nights are the nights where the sky is clear.

When it is misty it does not tend to be as cold as when the skies are clear.

[Efilnikufesin]

Good grief. Just started on (the fifth) re-read session and happily consumed the first chapters of AGOT today.

On my third set of rereads, I have switched to doing it by POV's. I find I get to distracted by the different POV's, but focusing one at a time I catch a lot more. I always read each prologues before each one too, feel like GRRM is hiding alot in the prologues.

I have this notion that Rickon has shown signs of early cannibalism in much of Bran's chapters in AGoT.

Have fun and catch some clues.

[nanother]

OR.... The mists could just be a result of the simple fact that WWs, their arms, and armor are all super-cooled, and thus colder than the surrounding environment.

Actually, as far as I'm aware, that (mist=visible condensation in the air) tends to happen when the source is warmer than the surrounding air.

edit:

@alienarea - good catch about the bones remembering