Heresy 21

[FanTasy]

Actually, as far as I'm aware, that (mist=visible condensation in the air) tends to happen when the source is warmer than the surrounding air.

But if there is something really, really cold, smoke / mist is released.

This I always found very, very interesting, considering what the Others could be (ETA and what they could do if they are creating the wights):

There is talk of cold, intense cold, as the Others appear. It is so cold you have no breath, is said somewhere (somebody on line with a Kindle?)

Also there are numerous mentionings of frostbite, on the wights, Jon in his dream was covered with frostbite.

From Wikipedia: At atmospheric pressure, liquid nitrogen boils at −196 °C(77 K; −321 °F) and is a cryogenic fluid which can cause rapid freezing on contact with living tissue, which may lead to frostbite.

As liquid nitrogen evaporates it will reduce the oxygen concentration in the air and might act as an asphyxiant,

ETA and liquid nitrogen will cause fires to die, because fire lives by fuel and oxygen. Take one of those two elements away and fire is dead, as firefighters know. Did this happen with Tormunds campfires and is this what Melisandre sees in her vison of the dying fires in the caves

ETA2 When Grenn picks up the dagger that Sam killed the Other with, he drops it, because it is so cold he can't hold on, right?

[nanother]

1) But if there is something really, really cold, smoke / mist is released.

This I always found very, very interesting, considering what the Others could be (ETA and what they could do if they are creating the wights):

There is talk of cold, intense cold, as the Others appear. It is so cold you have no breath, is said somewhere (somebody on line with a Kindle?)

Also there are numerous mentionings of frostbite, on the wights, Jon in his dream was covered with frostbite.

From Wikipedia: At atmospheric pressure, liquid nitrogen boils at −196 °C(77 K; −321 °F) and is a cryogenic fluid which can cause rapid freezing on contact with living tissue, which may lead to frostbite.

As liquid nitrogen evaporates it will reduce the oxygen concentration in the air and might act as an asphyxiant,

2) ETA and liquid nitrogen will cause fires to die, because fire lives by fuel and oxygen. Take one of those two elements away and fire is dead, as firefighters know. Did this happen with Tormunds campfires and is this what Melisandre sees in her vison of the dying fires in the caves

3) ETA2 When Grenn picks up the dagger that Sam killed the Other with, he drops it, because it is so cold he can't hold on, right?

1) You mean like dry ice?

2) The effect seems to fit, but somehow I doubt it's that scientific in Martins wrld :dunno:

3) Yes, that's what heppens.

ETA sorry don't have the time to consider your points more carefully, shouldn't be posting here in the first place :leaving:

[FanTasy]

Yep. I guess we have discussed this before, on some earlier thread. Maybe the Others create the cold because they don't consist of mainly water kept at a comfortable body temperature. Maybe they consist of liquid oxygen nitrogen in stead of water? Is liquid oxygen nitrogen perhaps blue colored? It gives off a white mist / smoke right?

[FanTasy]

Is there a chemist on line? Water (what humans are made off, basically) for about 60%) is H2O. O=oxygen. H=hydrogen. What happens if a human is ' taken over' by liquid nitrogen? It freezes, when alive it dies but is preserved.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Yes, i was thinking of dry ice/ liquid nitrogen.... Esp. After the super chilled dagger. You'd need something liquid N-esque to do that. And you'd get a white mist.

[Eyron]

Fantasy, I am no chemist but found a picture of nitrogen in a clear bottle.

ETA: I may be geeky but I think it's a beautiful photo! My folks always said I should be a chemist...

[Eyron]

It's also interesting to consider the nitrogen cycle in nature here. (maybe this one is better)

Organic material that decays release nitrogen into the soil via decomposers and nitrogen fixing roots nodules bind some of it. Plants are the only uptake.

Volcanos release a lot of nitrogen into the atmosphere. Lightning fixation and precipitation transports atmospheric nitrogen back into the soil.

Don't know if this is of any interest, but since we're on this track...

[7V3N]

I like this idea of liquid nitrogen. It seems fitting with what we know so far.

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't GRRM into science fiction before fantasy? If so, I would not rule anything as too scientific for him/ASOIAF.

Short post since I am posting from my phone.

[Efilnikufesin]

I think it will end up more magical in nature, but maybe it could be a nod to something like The Dark Tower series which has a combination of science and magic with old technology scattered throughout a somwhat medival world. Liquid nitrogen as far as I know does not occur in nature, it is made through compression of nitrogen gas to get it into liquid form ( if I remember correctly.)

[Eyron]

GRRM has written SciFi, so it's possible there could be some influence from that. As far as I remember though, ASoIaF is not SciFi related at all, according to GRRM. In an interview he said: If I wanted to write Science Fiction, I would write Science Fiction.

And he explained that this is where "magic" comes into it, there is no need for rational explanations when there is magic.

I can tell you generally that when treating with magic in fantasy, you have to keep it magical. Many fantasy writers work out these detailed systems, and rules, and I think that's a mistake.

For magic to be effective in a literary sense, it has to be unknowable and strange and dangerous, with forces that can't be predicted or controlled. That makes it, I think, much more interesting and evocative. It functions as a symbol or metaphor of all the forces in the universe we don't understand and maybe never will.

[Eyron]

A fine post I found on another thread:

The faith of rhllor, like the faith in the old gods of nature is rooted in celtic mythology. Many rituals involving the end of winter involve bonfires and sacrifice with fire. The celtic faith had two worlds the human world and the otherworld (sometimes called faerie world)and on the winter solstice the druids would communicate with these others. The druids worshipped their white goddess whereas the shamans worshipped a red god the two were supposed to mate to creat harmony with nature, and i think the faith of rhllor is heavily based on the shamans while the cotf and what bloodraven is doing is heavily based on the druids. We'll just have to wait and see what kind of balance will be made at the end of the song of ice and fire

As I don't know much about the celtic religions maybe someone else know more?

[Efilnikufesin]

A fine post I found on another thread:

As I don't know much about the celtic religions maybe someone else know more?

Will look into it, have been doing a ton of reading on celtic lore and have not encountered this yet, but I have been focusing mostly on the myths, not the practitioners. So much lore it's alot to take in having not studied it before.

[Eyron]

Will look into it, have been doing a ton of reading on celtic lore and have not encountered this yet, but I have been focusing mostly on the myths, not the practitioners. So much lore it's alot to take in having not studied it before.

Great! This feels like a study group sometimes :lol:

[nenya~]

So I was looking at different mythologies and folklore about cold mists and stuff and came across a couple of cool parallels.

Boreas is the god of the north wind in Greek mythology.

To the south the realm was guarded by the bitterly cold peaks of the near-impassable Rhipaion mountains. This was the home of Boreas, god of the north wind, whose chill breath brought winter to all the lands to the south--Skythia, Thrake, Istria, Celtica, Italy and Greece. The peaks of the mountains were also the home of Griffins (eagle-lions), and its valleys were inhabited by the fierce, one-eyed Arimaspoi tribe. Directly to the south lay Pterophoros, a desolate, snow-covered land cursed by eternal winter.

http://www.theoi.com...Hyperborea.html

Does Pterophosos sound like the Land of Always Winter to anyone else? :).

Except that in Greek mythology, there's Hyperboeas, which is north of this and is a land of "eternal spring". I don't think there's going to be a "Land of Always Spring" to the north, but I do think people who follow the Red God are striving for something like this and I wonder if Asshai and the lands around there are in an sort of "eternal summer"

Another one I came across was Yuki-onna in Japanese folklore. I know GRRM is familiar with lots of mythologies, but I'm not so sure how familiar he is with Japanese folklore, so it could just be a coincidence. I did think it was interesting nonetheless.

Anyway, Yuki-onna is a snow spirit and I hate to quote wiki, but here:

Yuki-onna appears on snowy nights as a tall, beautiful woman with long black hair and blue lips. Her inhumanly pale or even transparent skin makes her blend into the snowy landscape (as famously described in Lafcadio Hearn's Kwaidan: Stories and Studies of Strange Things). She sometimes wears a white kimono,[3] but other legends describe her as nude, with only her face and hair standing out against the snow.[4] Despite her inhuman beauty, her eyes can strike terror into mortals. She floats across the snow, leaving no footprints (in fact, some tales say she has no feet, a feature of many Japanese ghosts), and she can transform into a cloud of mist or snow if threatened.

http://en.wikipedia....onna#Appearance

There are also stories of her freezing people to death with her "icy breath," or appearing with a child to lure people in. I've got all this from the wiki, so I'm not so sure how accurate it is.

Also, in Norse mythology Niflheim is one of the nine worlds that's made of ice and apparently means "mist-world" or something such.

"It was many ages before the earth was shaped that the Mist-World was made…" (referring to Niflheim) http://www.sacred-te...u/pre/pre04.htm

There's a lot more stuff in Norse mythology that's interesting, but I'll leave it at the mists stuff for now. (And I know Norse mythology has been discussed much already :) )

[Efilnikufesin]

Still looking, but here's a bit of info, including some about Lugh who I have seen as somewhat of a last hero figure.

The third festival of the agricultural year is Beltane (Bealtunn in Scots Gaelic, meaning May Day), celebrated April 30-May 1. The myth surrounding this festival is common to many ancient pagan religions. The god, Bel (or Cernunnos, the horned god of Ireland) dies but is reborn as the goddess' son. He then impregnates her ensuring the neverending cycle of rebirth. This is very basic fertility worship. May Day traditions includes young people picking flowers in the woods (and spending the night there), and the dance around the May Pole, weaving red (for the god) and white (for the goddess) streamers round and round. A great bonfire celebrates the return of the sun. In Ireland, the first bonfire was lit on Tara by the High King followed by all the others. On May Day itself, the Highland tradition has the entire community leading the cattle to summer pasturage, not to return until Samhain.

The final celebration of the agricultural year is Lughnasadh (Lammas in England), the feast of the god Lugh and the first fruits of the harvest (generally wheat or corn). Lughnasadh is celebrated July 31-August 1. In Scotland, the first stalks of corn are called "John Barleycorn", of course, and were used to make the first beer of the fall season. Now, John Barleycorn refers to that greatest of Scots drinks (many distilleries are closed for August, reopening for the fall whisky-making season on September 1). This festival, as celebrated in England, gives me the willies, reminding me of that great horror novel by Thomas Tryon, Harvest Home. At Lammas, the Corn King dies (to be reborn at spring), ensuring plenty for the winter.

The Solar Holidays - Solstice and Equinox

The other four holidays of the Celtic year celebrate the spring and fall equinoxes and the winter and summer solstices. Each name contains the word "Alban" meaning "Light of". The name for ancient Scotland was Alba.

Edit: The Red and White gods seem to refer to the King and Queen of the faierie council's respectively.

Edit again: Anyone notice some similar names in there?

[Efilnikufesin]

Will link the website: some good assorted info in it as well:

http://www.heartoscotland.com/Categories/CelticMythology.htm

[Efilnikufesin]

http://www.shee-eire.com/Magic&Mythology/Gods&Goddess/main.htm

Another good site with many celtic myths.

[Efilnikufesin]

Some quick info on the Sidhe courts in case anyone is unfamilair:

http://regulation.wi.../Sidhe_(Courts)

Though contrary to this, I have noticed that the white court is ruled by the Sidhe Queen, and the Red is ruled by the King, but sometimes both are Queens as in the website linked, but it's all very ambiguous.

[Efilnikufesin]

To hog the board once more, have a small theory that although GRRM mentions the Others as looking likre "Sidhe made of ice" or something similar, that we can possibly equate the First Men with the Sidhe, who warred with the Fomorians/Fir Bolg, to take Ireland for themselves, to eventually fall to the Sons of Mil (Andals?) Any thoughts to support/refute would be welcome.

Edit: In short

CoTF/Others=Fir Bolg/ Fomorains

First Men=Sidhe

Andals= Sons of Mil

[mrazny]

I think the most salient point of all is that "if i wanted to write science fiction, I'd write science fiction". Which still leaves on the table the possibility that the White Walkers are corrupted men. BUT, going the other direction :)

A science fiction spin... You don't have to over analyse too much. Have you guys ever used compressed air? Like a duster for your computer? The can becomes super cold and all the dense air is released...

If the White Walker is extra dense mist, as it's released back into mist form it has an inherent heat transfer that makes the dagger ultra cold.